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Imagine if Mariko did go through with it and Blackthorne seconded her......... and then Buntaro found out :)
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Shōgun |OT| An Epic Saga Of War, Passion And Power Set In Feudal Japan
- Thread starter DinkyDev
- Start date
- Entertainment Video/Streaming OT
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It's not only "I'm no peasant, I'm a motherfucking queen!", it's also a sick burn referencing Ishido's ancestry. She's a highborn lady from a Samurai family while he is actually a lowly peasant who has been raised up to Samurai status.
Yea that didn't go unnoticed by me, god Mariko can be so savage sometimes
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Yabushige is such a slimeball but I love him. He's just so entertaining in every scene he's in. He was born hundreds of years too early to be a really entertaining podcast host.
I also really like John's odd presence in scenes. He has a subtle but good way of just not moving the same as everyone else, or all the little looks he gives that makes him feel like a blend of outsider but one who is somewhat tuned in to what is going on.
What a show.
I also really like John's odd presence in scenes. He has a subtle but good way of just not moving the same as everyone else, or all the little looks he gives that makes him feel like a blend of outsider but one who is somewhat tuned in to what is going on.
What a show.
I can't remember the exact timeframe, but it's something like six to twelve months I think. Training the cannon regiment, learning Japanese, learning their customs and all the communication forth and back via carrier pigeon as well as all the ship travel takes time. And marching from Edo to Osaka is quite a long way for an army - especially through mountains. (Edo is what later became Tokyo).
It's all a combination of curtesy, form, symbolism, precedent, and the breaking of an illusion
Officially, there are no hostages in Osaka. Everyone is there of their own free will and under the protection of Ishido/the heir. That last part is important as refusing the protection of the heir would be a grave insult. Something no ally of Ishido would do - especially after they saw what happened to the regent who tried to flee. Escaping means losing the protection of Ishido/the heir and you could get accosted by "bandits". Remember though, most of the highborn in Osaka ARE Ishido's supporters though he is very much straining that relationship by keeping them there. The reason he is doing this is to make sure they cannot communicate with Toranaga and/or defect to his cause.
This is a tense situation, but it works. Sooner or later Toranaga will have to comply with the summons. Ishido just needs to wait because he has the majority of the major clans in his fist. Toranaga lacks the support he needs to win.
Enter Mariko, who is a complete wildcard to Ishido's plans. Not only does she have the courage to challenge the "protection" (are we prisoners or guests?) because she has nothing to lose, she also has a weapon none of the other prisoners have. She has an order from her liege lord to bring back his ladies (two wives and newborn son). She is Samurai. Obeying her liege lord trumps any other consideration - it is part of bushido. And by denying her an exit pass, he is actually forcing her to dishonor herself. To the highborn Samurai to whom honor is everything, this makes Ishido look REAL bad. Her dying by her own hand (due to Ishido) paints him as the jailer who does not care about bushido. It brings his "samurainess" if you will into question. The peasant versus the noble samurai lady who will die before failing her lord. People opposed to Toranaga will be envious of getting such a beautiful end as Mariko. And of course that also rubs off on their perception of Toranaga. She is now legendary, and she was one of his vassals.
Killing her officially was out of the question. She has not committed any crime. She is (on paper) not an enemy of the heir or Ishido.
And then of course there is the absolutely humongous problem that in her dying breath she named Ishido as responsible. And others heard this.
Ishido shot himself in the foot. Both by forcing the issue IN THE CASTLE but also by trusting that Yabu would be able to let the ninja capture her. The "In The Castle" part is important. He would of course never admit that he sent the ninja but how much is his protection (the reason for keeping everyone there) worth when an army of ninja can enter the castle on his watch? That's what the supporters will be asking themselves now.
Officially, there are no hostages in Osaka. Everyone is there of their own free will and under the protection of Ishido/the heir. That last part is important as refusing the protection of the heir would be a grave insult. Something no ally of Ishido would do - especially after they saw what happened to the regent who tried to flee. Escaping means losing the protection of Ishido/the heir and you could get accosted by "bandits". Remember though, most of the highborn in Osaka ARE Ishido's supporters though he is very much straining that relationship by keeping them there. The reason he is doing this is to make sure they cannot communicate with Toranaga and/or defect to his cause.
This is a tense situation, but it works. Sooner or later Toranaga will have to comply with the summons. Ishido just needs to wait because he has the majority of the major clans in his fist. Toranaga lacks the support he needs to win.
Enter Mariko, who is a complete wildcard to Ishido's plans. Not only does she have the courage to challenge the "protection" (are we prisoners or guests?) because she has nothing to lose, she also has a weapon none of the other prisoners have. She has an order from her liege lord to bring back his ladies (two wives and newborn son). She is Samurai. Obeying her liege lord trumps any other consideration - it is part of bushido. And by denying her an exit pass, he is actually forcing her to dishonor herself. To the highborn Samurai to whom honor is everything, this makes Ishido look REAL bad. Her dying by her own hand (due to Ishido) paints him as the jailer who does not care about bushido. It brings his "samurainess" if you will into question. The peasant versus the noble samurai lady who will die before failing her lord. People opposed to Toranaga will be envious of getting such a beautiful end as Mariko. And of course that also rubs off on their perception of Toranaga. She is now legendary, and she was one of his vassals.
Killing her officially was out of the question. She has not committed any crime. She is (on paper) not an enemy of the heir or Ishido.
And then of course there is the absolutely humongous problem that in her dying breath she named Ishido as responsible. And others heard this.
Ishido shot himself in the foot. Both by forcing the issue IN THE CASTLE but also by trusting that Yabu would be able to let the ninja capture her. The "In The Castle" part is important. He would of course never admit that he sent the ninja but how much is his protection (the reason for keeping everyone there) worth when an army of ninja can enter the castle on his watch? That's what the supporters will be asking themselves now.
I still didn't get for what Torinaga needs Blackthorne in Osaka. He made clear that he wanted Blackthorne to join Yabushige, and he is using Yabu predicting behavior to execute his plan, but I am failing to see Blackthorne's part in it.
Also, Yabushige is a clear shit not trustworthy person, but he is so enjoyable to watch, can't hate him.
Also, Yabushige is a clear shit not trustworthy person, but he is so enjoyable to watch, can't hate him.
What I really like is that it makes language and discussions between characters that much more interesting, as you have to keep track of what he might be understanding or not. It's kind of a low key anxiety watching the scenes, knowing lots is probably going over his head and he's feeling extremely out of place. He just looks strained and bewildered much of the time, as he's trying hard to keep up. And then in key moments it drives home how much of communication is also delivery and body language. It's just so entertaining to have this as a central concept in this story.
Yeah, the show really didn't make that clear. It was a signal to the Portuguese priests that Toranaga's pet barbarian was now off the leash. Sort of letting the fox run loose among the hens.
"Get your fucking Christian lords to support me or my dog will savage your black ship."
Yeah the most recent episode was really interesting with that where we didn't spend much time with his PoV, so it was very hard to get a sense of what exactly he knew and didn't know. They made it clear that he's starting to pick up some amount of Japanese, but we don't ever get a clear read of how much or how little since Mariko would often be there to translate.
It'll be interesting to see how the finale goes since communication might be a much bigger issue now.
My read was that it just helps sell that Torinaga has fully given up and lost Blackthorne to where Yabushige was able to buy his loyalty. Blackthorne has the reputation of mostly caring for self-preservation and very much wanting Torinaga to fight, so for Torinaga's Hatamoto to abandon him (especially in public fashion where he stormed out of the surrender announcement) it just helps sell the performance.
It's also just pragmatic imo. Blackthorne wouldn't have much to do sitting around the camp, so being able to go with Mariko and protect her and be a tool she can use for the role she had to play would just be strategic. Like how he was able to be an excuse for Ochiba and Mariko to meet.
I would argue that fucking up every time and not getting killed is a kind of skill. I love him!
Wonderful episode. Acting, pacing and directing were all top-notch. The most tense episode I've seen in a while.
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Wow. This show has to sweep the awards. It's just so good.
Can someone explain / theorize the symbolism of Blackthorne staring at the dry garden? The sand garden. He draws a vertical line it (a line in the sand? heh) and just stares at it for a while. Does it symbolize him wondering if he needs to intervene in the fate of others? Being different than everyone else around him? I found it a neat thing that was left up to interpretation.
Can someone explain / theorize the symbolism of Blackthorne staring at the dry garden? The sand garden. He draws a vertical line it (a line in the sand? heh) and just stares at it for a while. Does it symbolize him wondering if he needs to intervene in the fate of others? Being different than everyone else around him? I found it a neat thing that was left up to interpretation.
I think it's to symbolize the line of staying European or crossing the line and becoming Japanese
for me that was blackthorne physically representing the line that Mariko drew between them and him ultimately accepting it. He stops trying to dissuade her after that and lets her do her thing.
Probably affirming his situation somewhat as well, he's probably got a growing resentment towards Toranaga and without Mariko in the picture he wouldn't want to stick around. He no longer feels European enough to hang with the europeans, definitely not japanese enough (yet) so he's got some choices to make.
Probably affirming his situation somewhat as well, he's probably got a growing resentment towards Toranaga and without Mariko in the picture he wouldn't want to stick around. He no longer feels European enough to hang with the europeans, definitely not japanese enough (yet) so he's got some choices to make.
I agree it's a neat thing.
The thing I took from the image is the way the line drawn stands out against the pattern of the sand, and how fragile it is. A line in the sand can be turned back into the old pattern as easily as it was created.
I could see it as Blackthorne looking at himself, an outsider who stands out wherever he goes, trying to adapt himself, constantly confused. But I think it's more likely to be an attempt to understand Mariko, after watching her struggle to carry out her obviously doomed task. What must it mean for her to defy the pattern at such obvious cost? I think it's part of how he reconciles himself to her choice and makes the decision he does later.
Anything short of an emmy for Anna Sawai would be ridiculous to me. She's been fantastic all season, and the most recent episode was an exceptional performance by her. Seen the episode for a 2nd time now, and it's excellent. So fkn excellent. Probably my favorite episode of any show since........maybe The Son on Friday Night Lights.
Jesus, what an episode. I couldn't even get out a big sigh of relieve before they KO'd me with an uppercut at the end. I have no knowledge of the book/old show and only having Nioh as any sort of reference.
Assuming Blackthorne survives his berserker moment in the end. I'm hoping Fuji becomes his equivalent to Okatsu in Nioh. Or at least stay together as family since they currently don't have shit else around them but death.
FX/Hulu should definitely submit this episode to the Emmy's to help Anna win an Emmy (or at least get nominated)
Apologies for the slight derail, but...
I was looking on IMDB and for some reason they have in their "More like this section" for Shogun is Frieren (in fact half the list is very popular anime--like One Piece and DBZ). How are these two shows similar to those anime's IMDB? Very strange comparisons there.
I was looking on IMDB and for some reason they have in their "More like this section" for Shogun is Frieren (in fact half the list is very popular anime--like One Piece and DBZ). How are these two shows similar to those anime's IMDB? Very strange comparisons there.
My interpretation of the line Blackthorne draws is that it was a metaphor for him and his actions (the line) versus Japan (the whole garden). He can affect things, but only a very small part of it. And no matter what he does, the garden stays the garden. And in an instant, his part can be erased.
Very curious about the final episode. I think a major change compared to the book is incoming (based on what we haven't seen in the show).
Very curious about the final episode. I think a major change compared to the book is incoming (based on what we haven't seen in the show).
Oh shit I see, goddamn Toranaga is a super villain lol
They're popular Japanese (well Shogun is American but you know whst i mean )shows that came out at the same time
Imdb recommendations has recency bias
My interpretation for the Blackthrone line is that it's just a cross that he used to pray, which matches with Mariko's intercalation of her praying as well.
If they wanted to kill her or Blackthorne they'd have done it in the bedroom, but they clearly grab their arms and legs at times rather than just stab them.
I can somewhat see the GoT ocmparison.
Complicated characters with their own interests which sometimes align with one another and sometimes don't.
High production values.
An opening that is somewhat similar with an emphasis on models of locations/music.
Swords
That's about where the similarities end, however.
I wonder if the devs of Ghost of Tsushima have seen a boost in sales since Shogun came out. I never played the game. I am suddenly looking with great interest for a good sale on it.
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I'm not a Soulslike fan, but this show made me download Like a Dragon Ishin to play down the road.