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Jubilant Duck

Member
Oct 21, 2022
5,993
True, but having real history helps with the broad strokes and the great writers proved they can write great characters, with of course book help, but also improving upon the source material in many ways.
Thing is, that real history is "now the country is completely closed, there shall be no more clan conflict, Christians are to be tortured into apostatising, and social hierarchy/caste shall be enforced even more than before"

It's a fascinating period of history but i don't think it lends itself to the momentous allegorical conflict the wars of unification offered.

Unless they're gonna commit to being a Dune Messiah to this season's Dune (aka "no, really, he wasn't a good guy why aren't some of you getting this?") I'd struggle to see what they can do with it.
 

Tsunami561

Member
Mar 7, 2023
3,279
Wow great ending, really thought they'd go with the classic massive battle finale + heroic victory.

Toranaga was really a power hungry psychopath like the rest of them
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,390
Beautiful finale. Really closed the book on the characters rather than going the expected route.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,390
Wow great ending, really thought they'd go with the classic massive battle finale + heroic victory.

Toranaga was really a power hungry psychopath like the rest of them


Lol there is nothing heroic about what he is doing. He is simply better at politics than his rivals. In a show about men who constantly lie to each other about their allegiances and intentions, manipulation is the greatest satisfaction, not battle scenes.
 

Tsunami561

Member
Mar 7, 2023
3,279
Lol there is nothing heroic about what he is doing. He is simply better at politics than his rivals. In a show about men who constantly lie to each other about their allegiances and intentions, manipulation is the greatest satisfaction, not battle scenes.
Yeah I'm saying I enjoyed that it went the way it did
 

Tugatrix

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,263
There's been a couple of interviews today where they talk about "season 2" possibilities, either:
  • Either another book with new cast, or
  • Continuing Blackthorne and Toranaga's story, but with no book to go on (just the real history).
The latter is very risky. The book had so much depth, information, story, character details, traits and arcs to go on. To come up with something brand new without a book to base it on or the original author available would be incredibly hard to match the quality. That's how we got Game of Thrones seasons 7 and 8 lol.

Please just don't, this is up there with the best shows, just don't risk to destroy an easy legacy as one of the best just to cash in more money.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,095
I was really looking forward to some battle scenes lol. Oh well. It was an epic series nonetheless.

Yea I wouldnt do another season of Shogun. If any of the other books in the series are worth doing, then do one of them with a whole new cast. Otherwise just move on and do something different. This was perfect as is.
 

Darkwing-Buck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,454
Los Angeles, CA
Toranaga reminds me a lot of Griffith, although he became a bit too much of a mastermind, as if everything would always work for him and he could see 273 steps ahead.

Still one of the best shows I've seen, very reflexive finale, even though I was expecting some "action" climax, but in the end it wasn't needed at all.
Same.

I can absolutely see Toranaga bringing about the eclipse lol

In a way, Crimson Sky was that event
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,315
his grandkids asking "were you really given those swords by a barbarian" really tells us a lot about his situation back home imo. Speaks to a situation where he just closes up after he returns I think, so not a lot of love lost there.

Okay, it must be stated clearly, Blackthorne didn't return home, those are dreams he was having, a potential future, it was not a flash forward. He fully gave up on said dream when he let go of Mariko's rosary into the water. He's never leaving Japan. The episode title "A Dream of a Dream" also hints at this being the case before the episode eventually made it clear.
 

fulltimepanda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,811
Okay, it must be stated clearly, Blackthorne didn't return home, those are dreams he was having, a potential future, it was not a flash forward. He fully gave up on said dream when he let go of Mariko's rosary into the water. He's never leaving Japan. The episode title "A Dream of a Dream" also hints at this being the case before the episode eventually made it clear.

well aware lol

was just talking about how that future plays out with what we are given. It's clearly not one that he wants and not the one that plays out.
 

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,165
Agree with all the fulsome and richly deserved praise for everything about this marvellous show...

But I just gotta shout out to the guy playing Toranaga's brother Nobutatsu, who stole the whole finale with that epic knee-walk-slide towards Ishido. An utter boss.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,390
In the post-credits scene, we flash forward to Blackthorne's great-great-great-great grandchild.

It is Tom Cruise
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,926
In Episode 9, when Mariko is trying to leave and she sends that one armoured up samurai to kill them and he does in two strikes then sheathes his blade. Just the sickest shit.

The shinobi too. It's like this is all stuff that has been in pop culture before but it's so authentic here its on another level.
 

demazin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
100
That was a beautiful finale to an awesome show. So many lovely character beats. I'm really going to miss it.
One of my mates hated it because he was bored that it didn't show the battle. The show was never about big, loud action scenes. Sigh...
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,182
Sydney
I really did like Torinaga as a character and bookend comparison to himself as an apex bird of pray.

In the first episode he says he's the bird that stays close to the sun and attacks you when you least expect it, and here in the finale he's sort of mocking the idea he controls the wind, he just observes it's currents like how birds navigate the air currents.

His scheming ability is just judging how people will act and using it to his advantage. Ok Mariko wants to die, when is that going to work best for my plans. My idiot failson is probably going to get himself killed, when is that going to work best for my plans. Yabushige is a textbook disloyal vassal who is going to try and side with the perceived stronger party, when is that going to work best for my plans.

John trying to goad him at the end saying "I used you, I fed you shit" is like the ultimate way to endear him to Torinaga cause he's like duh obviously that's why I used you back, to much greater effect. You were the perfect diversion for everything I did, you were gonna run around Japan like a maniac no matter what so I might as well make it work for me.

Contrast this with Ishido whose management style seems to be screaming that everyone has to vote the way he wants and ignoring what they want to do. I'm just going to ignore the wind and try and fly against it.
 

JimD

Member
Aug 17, 2018
3,523
What an amazing ending to a exquisitely crafted series! I have no idea why anyone who watched and enjoyed the first 9 episodes would be disappointed with the last. I expect most are just trolls. Like I can't think of a singularly contained series that kept the character arcs as focused and used the narrative to feed those arcs. One of the best ever.
 

Modi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
772
In Episode 9, when Mariko is trying to leave and she sends that one armoured up samurai to kill them and he does in two strikes then sheathes his blade. Just the sickest shit.
lKo7TFB.gif
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,612
That was an entertaining watch. The last episode landed where I hoped it would - which is that the opposition to Toranaga is probably warranted, and the warped and limited perception a coddled outsider would have of that.

My only complaint is I felt like the narrative momentum fell off in the middle of the series. You have moments like the killing of Ishido's right hand man not meaning much, you're privy to Yabushige's allegiances all along - it just felt like the show spinning its wheels, with only one moment - 'Don't touch - death' - standing out in my mind as great.

Overall though it is a good show.
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,257
I think this might be my GOAT show displacing The Wire.

Cosmo really acted his ass off this episode. I've liked him throughout the show but he really got to actually act this episode.

Yabushige really got a great send off. What a great character.

Kinda sad Fuji didn't stick around with John.

Lastly, fuck Toranaga. Piece of shit.
 

Gibbo

The Fallen
Nov 20, 2017
738
Was it clear that it was Ishido's men that was sent to capture Mariko? Or was it done by Toranaga?

Anyway I'm glad that they didn't spend the last episode showing the big battle, but rather Toranaga's account of what he believes will happen. It's in line with the series approach of telling audience alot, using very little
 

TheGameshark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,378
Catonsville, MD
Damn what a show in almost every aspect. Loved the subdued nature of the finale. The scene with Blackthorne and Fuji in the boat was incredibly touching. Cosmos performance was incredible. Really felt Blackthornes grief. Yabushiges final scene was great as well.
 

kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,087
Was it clear that it was Ishido's men that was sent to capture Mariko? Or was it done by Toranaga?

Anyway I'm glad that they didn't spend the last episode showing the big battle, but rather Toranaga's account of what he believes will happen. It's in line with the series approach of telling audience alot, using very little
Ishido's men but Toranaga did want her dead. Just another example of Yabushige unwittingly helping Toranaga.
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,257
Only thing I don't really like about this episode was part of Toranaga's speech at the end. Where he basically just spells out what ends up happening in history during the Edo period.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,179
Only thing I don't really like about this episode was part of Toranaga's speech at the end. Where he basically just spells out what ends up happening in history during the Edo period.
Would you have liked him to say, "Well, Yabushige... remember, it's not the destination that matters, it's the friends you killed along the way"?
 

Muetsch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
501
This was not only my favorite show I've ever watched but probably also one of the best (if not *the* best) season of TV ever.

Incredible characters portrayed by amazing actors.

Especially happy with the last two scenes with Fuji and John. Powerful performances by both that I kinda forgot I'm just lying in my bed looking at a screen.

Fucking hell. What a ride
 

Addi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,270
Something I noticed too, was how little they romanticized seppuku. In other movies or shows, it would be portrayed as something honorable, the beautiful samurai death.

Here it's only superficially honorable (as in, the ritual itself is carried out according to the customs, the person that is to die doesn't shy away etc.) but is ultimately just a waste of a life or even something to be used in a political scheme.
 

The Omega Man

Fallen Guardian
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,957
Toronaga has Griffith's levels of POS.
When he reveals the real reason he kept The Anjin alive, damn.
Pour one for Yabushige, I would have loved to drink a couple of beers with him, that man was hilarious.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,636
Australia
well, that was an ending. No action needed because it was just people explaining all the loose ends.
great series.
Does it need another season? No. Would I watch another season? Yes.
 

Animus Vox

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,545
NYC
Loved this show to the end. I still somewhat wished for a grand battle with Ishido getting cut down but it stayed true to the show's core by letting the characters drive everything. I think the reveal of the spy might've been lost on me a bit but I also couldn't grasp the whole 4d chess that Toranaga was playing. He had Mariku speak to the council in which she had Blackthorne's ship blown up to spare his life which Toranaga then started "punishing" the town until the saboteurs were caught when in the end it was his plan all along? I definitely need to rewatch this.

Another small thing I didn't get was the storeroom scene in the beginning. How were the "invaders" handled? Also they blew the door open but kind of just left it at that. Unless I missed something I feel like this was kind of glossed over in the end.
 

JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,161
Canada
Loved this finale! I kept wondering about the "flash forward", so when Mariko's rosary was left in the water it was sudden and sad.
All the scenes with Fuji were perfect.
I disagree with anybody saying this needed some bombastic war. Not at all. There were enough moments of intrigue and there was also plenty of suspense. The show was tense as hell sometimes.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,315
I think the reveal of the spy might've been lost on me a bit

Pretty sure his identity was already revealed earlier, it was just conveniently kept secret from Yabushige who eventually was convinced to stop looking for the person spying on him due to them framing that one guy Blackthorne inadvertently killed due to choosing his words poorly. In the finale, I guess he just gave up the ruse entirely to Blackthorne because otherwise he'd be wondering why this simple fisherman can translate so well.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,116
Oh, so just want to say I totally misinterpreted those dream sequences. And I'm usually pretty media literate. It's just the show has never done that before and I knew the show was partially historically based. So, even the title of the episode I assumed was Old Blackthorne dreaming of his past. Not that the reality is bad, I just didn't figure the show would use some a narrative technique it hadn't used before.