Anjin and him would have been best buds in another life.
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Shōgun |OT| An Epic Saga Of War, Passion And Power Set In Feudal Japan
- Thread starter DinkyDev
- Start date
- Entertainment Video/Streaming OT
Anjin and him would have been best buds in another life.
Toranaga playing with Blackthorne was so fuck up.
John is no saint but man… he's basically a prisoner forever.
John is no saint but man… he's basically a prisoner forever.
Amazing series.
Which of course makes Toranaga using John's quote "unless I win" about his small war even more layered lol.
I view this slightly diff, yes it's sad that he was just another pawn like everyone else seemed to be, but I think there's sincerity in the discussion in the end, when John says he's done with his small war and realizes the purposelessness of it all, Toranaga is almost giving him another purpose or mission to replace it. I view the glance at the end as almost an acknowledgement of this.
Which of course makes Toranaga using John's quote "unless I win" about his small war even more layered lol.
For a moment there The Anjin and Yabushige considered going to England and starting a Private Investigator Company.
Great material for season 2, missed opportunity.
Great material for season 2, missed opportunity.
Absolutely fantastic show. Sad it's over but really grateful the team behind it made it everything it was.
Cosmo looked absolutely haunted throughout the finale. Really affecting performance in a show full of tremendous performances.
I think my favourite scene this ep, and arguably the most important, was the final scene between Toranaga and Yabushige. Just really crystalised everything about this show.
Cosmo looked absolutely haunted throughout the finale. Really affecting performance in a show full of tremendous performances.
I think my favourite scene this ep, and arguably the most important, was the final scene between Toranaga and Yabushige. Just really crystalised everything about this show.
They really did it. Every single episode was fantastic, and i'm so glad they nailed that last episode. I was fully expecting a battle at some point but just having it play it the way it did was great. That scene with Fuji and Blackthorne on the boat was so beautiful, probably my favorite part of the entire episode.
Yeah I felt that this wasn't as big of a reveal for some reason and this was it.
Beautiful finale. No real catharsis, no huge victory, just waves and waves of sadness and melancholy. Everyone was magnificent. But the Fuji and Blackthorne scenes in particular hurt me so much. "No Translator" was incredibly effective.
I'm sat here thinking about Toranaga and just how far he went. He sacrificed his son without a care because he has more. He probably ordered/manipulated Hirokatsu to keep Mariko alive due to her relationship with Ochiba coming into play years later. He definitely manipulated Mariko into sacrificing herself for his cause. He turned Yabushige into a shell of a man. He kept Blackthorne as a prisoner with purpose. Hell, he probably gave Blackthorne the Hatamoto title just so he could foster a relationship between Blackthorne and the village/Fuji and leverage that somehow.
The only time we've seen Toranaga on the backfoot was during the earthquake, a literal act of God. Everything else and everyone else fell by the wayside of his ambition. "An ally with ambition is no ally at all" indeed.
I'm sat here thinking about Toranaga and just how far he went. He sacrificed his son without a care because he has more. He probably ordered/manipulated Hirokatsu to keep Mariko alive due to her relationship with Ochiba coming into play years later. He definitely manipulated Mariko into sacrificing herself for his cause. He turned Yabushige into a shell of a man. He kept Blackthorne as a prisoner with purpose. Hell, he probably gave Blackthorne the Hatamoto title just so he could foster a relationship between Blackthorne and the village/Fuji and leverage that somehow.
The only time we've seen Toranaga on the backfoot was during the earthquake, a literal act of God. Everything else and everyone else fell by the wayside of his ambition. "An ally with ambition is no ally at all" indeed.
Pretty much.
In terms of Game of Thrones (well, the books), I feel like Doran Martell sees himself as like Toranaga in his mind. Of course, it likely ain't gonna work out for him.
yeah, I think that is the reveal Anna Sawai was talking about in the last episode. It's revealed that all along Toranaga is not a good dude. Like, at all.
I don't know if it is that simple. Obviously Toronaga won't let him go, but I think him dropping the cross and the way he acted when he found his old crew members he's realized that he's a changed man now and probably could never go back even if he wanted to/could.
Yeah, and maybe it's just an illustration of how far he had "gone". I guess my understanding is that his family and his crew play a much bigger part in the books than they do in the show, but I think my one big criticism is that they really left aspect of his life under-developed. Like it would have been easier to just say his entire crew died and that he was single when he left England.
I don't disagree that on Japan he has finally found a purpose and wouldn't honestly want to go back to his old life. It's that he's ignorant that he's actually a prisoner by Toranaga who has manipulated everything to keep him here with a purpose and honestly doesn't even really respect him, he's alive because he makes him laugh.
He would be the villain in most works/shows. He's literally keeping John around as his jester.
Yeah the most brutal thing to me in the finale was the reveal that Blackthorne is pretty much just entertainment to him. Everything he went through and the way his life was taken out of his own hands, all at the amusement and whims of a powerful man.
The show does such an amazing job of slowly pulling back the mask of Toranaga and revealing who he actually is, all without him actually ever breaking character. He acts like the same man he did in ep 1, but I certainly didn't perceive him the same way in ep 10.
What an amazing show.
The show does such an amazing job of slowly pulling back the mask of Toranaga and revealing who he actually is, all without him actually ever breaking character. He acts like the same man he did in ep 1, but I certainly didn't perceive him the same way in ep 10.
What an amazing show.
Undoubtedly. When I was trying to get my sister into the show after episode 1, I said "Our hero Toranaga is trapped in Osaka castle..." Do I feel like a dumbass now. I think the show is a good reminder to separate the hero from the protagonist. Just because Toranaga wasn't going "all according to Keikaku", doesn't mean he is any different than other manipulative villains in media. It's just that we see events from his point of view that makes him seem morally grey or "just doing what needs to be done".
he isnt at all morally grey, intersting and compelling doenst mean morally grey
The smirk Toranaga made right before beheading
was incredibly devious.
Tora felt like a samurai version of Logan Roy from succession
Yabu
Tora felt like a samurai version of Logan Roy from succession
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I know. Which is why I said the show makes it seem he is morally grey by framing his actions as necessary to defend the realm from Ishido at the start. But by the end we know he was just a more manipulative, and ultimately successful, version of Ishido.
In defense of Toranaga's historic namesake, Tokugawa, he kept his word to Ochiba and kept the heir alive instead of killing him to remove that threat once he won the war.
Historically Toranaga didn't kill the heir for another 14 years, and only because an army of Toranaga haters had formed around him. Waiting 14 years is not what you'd expect from a villain.
Historically Toranaga didn't kill the heir for another 14 years, and only because an army of Toranaga haters had formed around him. Waiting 14 years is not what you'd expect from a villain.
that is a byproduct of hi bieng the protaginist, you will be suprised what people are willing to rationalise if you put them in someone elses shoes
So just heard a crazy story on the official podcast. The bay where they filmed the Blackthorne/Fuji scene with the ashes and cross is the same bay where James Clavells ashes were spread
View: https://x.com/smorriscode/status/1782973368096210988?s=46&t=sAJNUEnEEUHytPJFhS5M7A
His last will was titled "Will_v2_final_final_3.txt"
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I see people keep bringing up John's family, but we know the deal there. He doesn't give a fuck about them. He tells Mariko that he bailed on his newborn because he loves the ocean. His crewmate tells us that John put them all through hell because of his ambition to get to Japan. We continuously get mentions of the wicked shit he did in those journals. At least at the beginning of the series, John is a selfish prick.
This got me as well.
Just excellent all round, but a really affecting performance.
Also, the shot of Toranaga's back in his chair in the cliff as Yabushige approached was so simple and well framed but packed with quiet menace and presence.
Beyond the moment at the earthquake Toranaga has just had such supreme presence in every scene.
Yabu and Anjin's relationship was honestly kinda wholesome. it legitimately seemed like Yabu liked Anjin a lot, and watching his attempts to help the guy was endearing. just another reason why he was the best character in the series - despite fitting the mold of the usual loathsome backstabbing weasel archetype, he could be weirdly sympathetic (it also helped that he was so woeful at all those backstabbing attempts).
Man...gonna miss Yabushige but god damn this show is fucking phenomenal. Mariko's explanation of death having meaning coming into play at that scale...insane. Season 2 is gonna be hell of a wait.
One thing I admire is the confidence in that Yabu would be an audience favorite despite his sadistic traitorous nature. You only write that finale knowing you got it.
They build a lot in the last two episodes based on that expectation, which is something that with many series usually happens with a second season once reactions towards characters have been confirmed before entrusting them with the key moments of pathos of your series finale.
They build a lot in the last two episodes based on that expectation, which is something that with many series usually happens with a second season once reactions towards characters have been confirmed before entrusting them with the key moments of pathos of your series finale.
twas a joke my friend. the show's based on a book and it ends pretty much exactly where the book does.
Toranaga waiting to chop Yabu's head of in stead of doing it immediately once he shoves the blade in his abdomen, and then that 'what are you waiting for?'-look of Yabu and the smile of Toranaga. Toranaga is a god damn monster.
Amazing series, and a great finale. I came in expecting a battle and for a minute was disapointed they had Toranaga just explain what was going to happen in stead of showing it play out, but ultimately the battle wouldn't have told us anything new, nor would it have a real stake for Toranaga. The deal was done, his plan had worked long before the first swords would be drawn on the battlefield, so the whole scene would've been redundant anyway.
Amazing series, and a great finale. I came in expecting a battle and for a minute was disapointed they had Toranaga just explain what was going to happen in stead of showing it play out, but ultimately the battle wouldn't have told us anything new, nor would it have a real stake for Toranaga. The deal was done, his plan had worked long before the first swords would be drawn on the battlefield, so the whole scene would've been redundant anyway.
I actually read that differently. I saw it as Toranaga giving Yabu a taste of that last moment between life and death, something he was obsessed with in life. I didn't see Yabu's look as a "what are you waiting for" and instead more of a "you cheeky bastard".
I found it amusing that Toranaga, who has people scheming for his death, his army destroyed by the earthquake, and needs to find a way to somehow achieve victory, must also resolve a domestic affair/love triangle between Buntaro, Blackthorne, and Mariko lmao
Hah, that's probably the more correct reading. I was just expecting him to decapitate him immediately and felt like he was just making him suffer a bit longer
The only thing I didn't love was Yabu's temporary descent into unhinged behaviour. The imaginary catfish chasing, the teach me to dive stuff. It felt too extreme, even if it was concussion/guilt driven, especially for such a wily old fox. He was suddenly over it by the time he got to his Omi talk and Toronaga audience, so it definitely jarred a little for me.
ehhh I wouldn't say that
They're both ambitious and allegiant only to themselves. It's just that Yabu's abilities weren't anywhere near capable enough, so he fell victim to becoming a pawn in the game.
Remember, this is the dude who boiled a stranded sailor alive back in episode 1, who killed his comrades to enable a betrayal, etc.
He just has that folksy charm that makes him likeable despite being an evil man
Remember, this is the dude who boiled a stranded sailor alive back in episode 1, who killed his comrades to enable a betrayal, etc.
He just has that folksy charm that makes him likeable despite being an evil man
i don't think anyone's trying to argue that he was a good guy. but even as a weaselly shit he was a compelling, multidimensional character who was constantly entertaining to watch thanks to a superb performance. that was part of the brilliance of the show.
It's been so fucking great seeing Tadanobu Asano just chew it up with such great, densely written character.
His obsession with his death and his reflexive attempts to avoid it is just so brilliant to watch.
His obsession with his death and his reflexive attempts to avoid it is just so brilliant to watch.