It was the Sengoku era. None of the characters are what we would consider "good or heroic" from our perspective. Even historical figures like Yasuke or Sanada Yukimura who are portrayed more heroic in media have slaughtered innocent people.
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Shōgun |OT| An Epic Saga Of War, Passion And Power Set In Feudal Japan
- Thread starter DinkyDev
- Start date
- Entertainment Video/Streaming OT
I liked the final episode but I think it lacked a little oomph.
I also thought of this:
We need a Sunny x Shogun crossover.
I also thought of this:
We need a Sunny x Shogun crossover.
Easy to have remorse when you are the one who lost and is going to die compared to the guy who achieved everything he wanted. Do you really think he would say the same if his plan would have worked and he would have been successfully put on the council as a regent?
He did show remorse immediately after it happened. That's why he got caught.
Blackthorn is good with languages, He already was fluent in English, Dutch and Portuguese, judging his Nihongo level at the end he was a year away of being decently fluent with such a full immersion way of life.
It's going to get progressively difficult to keep him on a leash, the last look He gave to Toronaga kind of had the "I know who you really are you mofo" vibes.
It's going to get progressively difficult to keep him on a leash, the last look He gave to Toronaga kind of had the "I know who you really are you mofo" vibes.
"No dirty hands, no war. Just a woman."
Such a brilliant conclusion.
I found it just a little bit twee when Toranaga started laying out real historical events right down to name-dropping Sekigahara. how would he know the battle would happen in that specific place I wonder.
Yabushige got to make a death poem, write out a will (last of many), have the future Shogun of Japan as his second, and his life ended quickly before the majestic view of the mighty ocean... The same privileges were not afforded to the poor bastards he backstabbed and murdered in the middle of the night in the previous episode. I think it's just testament to how relatable he was despite his atrocities. At the end of it, despite being intrinsically part of the culture, despite being completely of Japan, he was little different from John. Just a man, running about and subjecting himself to smarter/stronger people for the hope of living another day and a prosperous future.
Such a brilliant conclusion.
I found it just a little bit twee when Toranaga started laying out real historical events right down to name-dropping Sekigahara. how would he know the battle would happen in that specific place I wonder.
Yabushige got to make a death poem, write out a will (last of many), have the future Shogun of Japan as his second, and his life ended quickly before the majestic view of the mighty ocean... The same privileges were not afforded to the poor bastards he backstabbed and murdered in the middle of the night in the previous episode. I think it's just testament to how relatable he was despite his atrocities. At the end of it, despite being intrinsically part of the culture, despite being completely of Japan, he was little different from John. Just a man, running about and subjecting himself to smarter/stronger people for the hope of living another day and a prosperous future.
Fuck me that scene with blackthorne in his home when Fuji sits next to him and he looks to side were mariko used to sit killed me
He wasn't just a simple fisherman though. He was the village chief as well as a Christian convert (though that part was a deception), so it makes a lot of sense that he speaks a bit of Portuguese due to his contact with the priests.
His cover was twofold:
Spy on Omi/Yabu
Spy on the local priests
All for Toranaga.
His family are actually just as inconsequential in the book as in the series. The crew is somewhat different but similar to the series. In the book he meets with all of them and they party. All the while his every thought is "when the fuck can I leave this party of lice-ridden barbarians??".
He has come to despise them because he's become Japan-civilized to a certain extent. But he still wants to use them to take the black ship.
Fair enough, I'm just merely explaining that he chose to fully reveal his identity to Toranaga because he thought it'd otherwise be weird otherwise that he can translate much better than Blackthorne would've assumed
Wasn't it Toranaga that told him about the catfish in the pond. So, that part is realizing that Toranaga had lied about that too and has always been manipulating?
I don't really think of Toranaga as the 'bad guy all along' really. I think he just works with what he had. And he's a master at it.
Yabushige is a snake and a sadist. He was plotting against Toranaga from the beginning, resented his station in life, and life in his region didn't seem all that spectacular from those early episodes. Boiling a dude alive wasn't exactly a stunner coming from him it seems. Toranaga just used his treachery to help put his trap in place.
Mariko wanted to die. More specifically, she lived a life in what she considered shame and dishonor and wanted a way to die that would try to restore some of that. She was saddled with an abusive husband because of it and was trapped. She wanted a way to restore honor to her name and her father in a death that meant something to her, which is exactly the choice she made.
Toranaga's son was an idiot and reckless and lost more in the fantasy in his head than reality. The moment he cannonballed Ishido's men Tor had to know that his son would never be able to manage the delicacy and intricacies it would require to navigate staying alive in this world and succeeding. And he was right. He just managed to use his foolishness to his advantage.
Blackthorne wasn't lying when he said he came there to use Toranaga (or whatever he found in Japan). His goal was continuing his war. He did the things in those journals. But he was in a place where he would never reach any of those goals, never use the knowledge of the world outside Japan he had, stumbling from place to place lost in a different world. He never would have lived long enough to do anything without Toranaga. And Toranaga immediately understood that his single minded ambition and the knowledge he held could be used and, more specifically, that the novelty of what Blackthorne was could offer a distraction. And yeah, I think he really did make him laugh.
Tor looked at the tools he had, and found the right ones for the job.
Blackthorne was already a prisoner forever, just to himself/his war. He'd already left his family behind and was all about that raiding life. His purpose was different than when he first came to Japan, but it's not like he was on his way back to his family.
Yabushige is a snake and a sadist. He was plotting against Toranaga from the beginning, resented his station in life, and life in his region didn't seem all that spectacular from those early episodes. Boiling a dude alive wasn't exactly a stunner coming from him it seems. Toranaga just used his treachery to help put his trap in place.
Mariko wanted to die. More specifically, she lived a life in what she considered shame and dishonor and wanted a way to die that would try to restore some of that. She was saddled with an abusive husband because of it and was trapped. She wanted a way to restore honor to her name and her father in a death that meant something to her, which is exactly the choice she made.
Toranaga's son was an idiot and reckless and lost more in the fantasy in his head than reality. The moment he cannonballed Ishido's men Tor had to know that his son would never be able to manage the delicacy and intricacies it would require to navigate staying alive in this world and succeeding. And he was right. He just managed to use his foolishness to his advantage.
Blackthorne wasn't lying when he said he came there to use Toranaga (or whatever he found in Japan). His goal was continuing his war. He did the things in those journals. But he was in a place where he would never reach any of those goals, never use the knowledge of the world outside Japan he had, stumbling from place to place lost in a different world. He never would have lived long enough to do anything without Toranaga. And Toranaga immediately understood that his single minded ambition and the knowledge he held could be used and, more specifically, that the novelty of what Blackthorne was could offer a distraction. And yeah, I think he really did make him laugh.
Tor looked at the tools he had, and found the right ones for the job.
Blackthorne was already a prisoner forever, just to himself/his war. He'd already left his family behind and was all about that raiding life. His purpose was different than when he first came to Japan, but it's not like he was on his way back to his family.
and I guess we're supposed to read those flash forwards/visions as he probably does at some point anyhow?
I'm probably wrong but I read it as Toranaga wanting to deny Yabu having even a slightly interesting death. Having a white dude as your second could've been sorta noteworthy, but you don't deserve that lol?
Or maybe he saw it as a rare opportunity to speak openly about his plotting, but then again he didn't offer himself to do it, Yabu asked, so idk
It's actually the opposite. I haven't seen the episode yet, but having Toranaga as his second is a huge honor. Also, it would be a mercy as well.
The point of the second is that they help preserve the honor of the person doing seppukku and make sure they don't suffer needlessly. As soon as the business with the knife in the belly is concluded, the second end their suffering with one stroke. One clean chop. And Anjin, with zero experience in this field would not be expected to be able to do this. Especially since his motivation might be to prolong Yabu's suffering to get revenge.
So Toranaga both honored Yabu and did him a final mercy.
Because Toronaga and his 4D chess He knew that predictabo boy will ask for him as his second once he denied him Blackthorn for the honors.
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But its also exactly his character to be 10 steps ahead, even "knowing" where the major battle would take place. A bit cheesy sure.
I enjoyed the ending though too. I can see why most thought there would be some high budget conflict because were both wired for it and the show kinda hangs it over the auiences head for 10 episodes straight despite it 100% being a character drama above all else. Still I'm all about poltical warmonger mind game stories like this. The conclusion reminds you who Toranaga is in these times. A warlord/leader who wins, and one that is definitely all about that life lol.
Also glad we got more Fuji for the last episode. Did so much with what is supposed to be a minor character... geeze.
Ehh, I am going to cut him some slack on the battle area. Where Sekigahara took place is right in the middle of Osaka and Tokyo, so it makes sense that the battle would take place there.
Plus reading some specifics of the battle, it just makes sense that is where the battle would take place.
Battle of Sekigahara - Wikipedia
yeah I took that part out of my response lol. I actually live near it! (Nagoya) It's kinda an obvious location since there wasn't and still isn't anything there haha.Ehh, I am going to cut him some slack on the battle area. Where Sekigahara took place is right in the middle of Osaka and Tokyo, so it makes sense that the battle would take place there.
Plus reading some specifics of the battle, it just makes sense that is where the battle would take place.
Battle of Sekigahara - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
ohh nice! This show has definitetly increased my motivation to make it to Japan.
William Adams never goes back to his family. He helps setup the trade with Dutch/Japan and continuously sends a portion of his wages from the East India Company (or perhaps all of it since he doesn't necessarily need it with his title and estate in Japan) back to his family in England. He makes a new Japanese family but not much is known about them. When he dies in 1620, he splits his will between his Japanese and English families including 500 English pounds between both. His son Joseph inherits the estate. The inheritance doesn't make it back in time (it takes until 1622) before his English wife dies however.
Japan is sealed to all foreign trade in the next decade. Not much is known about his Japanese family after that, but it is assumed that they are exiled along with all other mixed-race Japanese to Jakarta.
Christians in Japan don't have a great time in Japan after.
I wonder if Ieyasu actually cares about creating a lasting peace and if he really cared about the heir and the Taiko for that matter? It is personal feelings of a historical figure but I assume they were a total ass while still craving power.
I mean, he's a bad guy. The whole, "thankfully, I have other sons" line seals it in case you had any doubt.
His son acts the way he does because his father is a piece of shit. He never shows any warmth towards his son, never actually teaches him anything, never lets him in on any of his plans, and only seems to know how to chastise him. And that's because in his mind his son is nothing more than a political tool, easily replaceable so long as he has backup sons.
Of course, no one in the show is truly innocent outside of the women who are forced to serve the interests of these scheming, sadistic men. Mariko only wishes death because she is forced to live in daily torture. And when she does find a reason to live, through Blackthorne, Toranaga easily manipulates events to ensure she seeks her death that he can use. He's a bad dude among a sea of bad dudes. It's just that he's the baddest of them all.
Remember, he has his own village executed for "traitors" knowing full well he orchestrated the burning of Blackthorne's ship. That's how much he views the lives of his own vassals.
I wanted at least shades of a great battle. We did get the impressions of illuions of shades of a great battle, which is less than ideal and I did think held the show back a little for me, but the show delivered basically everywhere else (and it couldn't have been cheap) so I can understand this shortcoming. Like Rome season 1 in that way.
He manipulated Marikos father into killing her father. Also, I believe in the book He is the only one who knows that the heir is not really the Taiko's son. She slept with a commoner who looked like him in order to get pregnant
On the top level, he's a direct threat to her since he's aiming to be shogun and usurp her son/her position.
On a more personal level, he both damned her best friend Mariko and killed her father using Mariko's father.
She says in either episode 6 or 7 that she more than suspects Toranaga is who planned the whole coup that Mariko's father did. ( It is in the scene where Ishido suggests they should marry).
She is one of the characters who sees him for who he is, and probably also fears him the most because her son is in the way of his ambition.
It is implied that she does not trust Toranaga's words when he claims he has the heir's best interest in mind, so Ochiba believes her son is a lot safer with Ishido having as much power as possible.
Of course like other characters she could have her true emotions well guarded, and the hate for Toranaga is another card she has to play in order to motivate Ishido because this is how she protects her son.
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I believe the book also just nods that the great battle happened and doesn't go into detail so it's kind of keeping with the narrative.
It's not a flash forward to me - it's a vision to Blackthorne about a potential future. It pops up a few times - he would be haunted by the moments that just occurred til his death bed, he would never be at home again in England but he could lead a good live there and set up a legacy - and when he is about to commit Seppukku he looks over his shoulder in the direction of this future and goes "fuck it" and rejects it and decides to stay.
I think the show makes a decent argument for not showing a great battle.
It makes this point in the end that the web of manipulations have been Toranaga waging war this entire time, and that's how they want to portray him , as the schemer, not as the warrior. Even if he most certainly is a very capable one and would probably have gone to war more directly if it wasn't for the earthquake.
And in a way you get a slow drip of every major event of a great battle, but separated by days as results of his political tactics instead of battlefield tactics.
The death of your mot trusted generals, the death of your son. Innocent villagers being the collateral damage. But here all to produce and preserve a ruse, instead of a cavalry charge.
It makes this point in the end that the web of manipulations have been Toranaga waging war this entire time, and that's how they want to portray him , as the schemer, not as the warrior. Even if he most certainly is a very capable one and would probably have gone to war more directly if it wasn't for the earthquake.
And in a way you get a slow drip of every major event of a great battle, but separated by days as results of his political tactics instead of battlefield tactics.
The death of your mot trusted generals, the death of your son. Innocent villagers being the collateral damage. But here all to produce and preserve a ruse, instead of a cavalry charge.
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Watched episode 9 last night. Sawai can't get enough praise, so keep piling it on, folks :) And they capped the Mariko/Blackthorne ship just perfectly. I'm still haunted by how staggering that moment is when Blackthorne literally saves her from Hell (at least in her understanding). Not an easy thing to portray that whiplash of emotion without speaking, but damn, Sawai did it.
10/10 show.
Gonna be tough to rate the best miniseries of all time:
Band of Brothers
Chernobyl
Shogun
Hmmmm.....
Gonna be tough to rate the best miniseries of all time:
Band of Brothers
Chernobyl
Shogun
Hmmmm.....
While I was watching E10 I thought, huh, I thought this was only ten episodes...then they flashed SHOGUN and I was a little disappointed. Lots of the characters get fuck all in the end. Pretty bleak. Mariko was pretty bang on with her statements to Blackthorne. You life and you die.
Lots of people gushing over Bands of Brothers, that's on Apple TV, right? Can I get a trial subscription and binge it? Or is it like paid content? On my phone with a spotty connection, so I don't want to google it, besides, people her can tell me that it's too heavy to binge or should be viewed as a slow burn, maybe.
Lots of people gushing over Bands of Brothers, that's on Apple TV, right? Can I get a trial subscription and binge it? Or is it like paid content? On my phone with a spotty connection, so I don't want to google it, besides, people her can tell me that it's too heavy to binge or should be viewed as a slow burn, maybe.
Band of Brothers is a HBO original, it should be accessible on Max as long as that service exists, it has also been on Netflix US for the last few months. Apple has an spiritual spin off Master of The Air, BoB on Apple may be an additional price or separate purchase.
Binging BoB is like watching a cut of Saving Private Ryan that is 10 hours long, you might want to split it on a couple of viewings instead of all in one day.
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Band of Brothers is on Max, and it's amazing, but if your concern is bleakness and what characters "get" in the end, it may not work for you as well. Shogun is historical fiction, Band of Brothers is based far closely on actual history. It's a dramatic telling of a real company in the 101st Airborne during World War II, and based on Stephen E. Ambrose's book where he interviewed a number of the survivors. There's a LOT of bleakness and "unsatisfying" character moments simply because real life, especially during a war, can be bleak and unfair.
Just finished it. What an incredible show. So many comparisons to Game of Thrones but this show ended up being the anti Game of Thrones, as good as Thrones in political intrigue, better than Thrones at being able to stick the fucking landing. It didn't have Thrones spectacle, no epic battles, but its character arcs, its relationships, and all the nuance it juggled between cultures and language and power struggles I felt ran circles about the best Thrones put out. Perfect character endings up and down the whole cast.
I think this is maybe in my top 5 of all time TV shows. I'll see how feels over a year later, but I have a feeling it will stay with me for a long time.
I think this is maybe in my top 5 of all time TV shows. I'll see how feels over a year later, but I have a feeling it will stay with me for a long time.
I don't think they can really compare since Shogun is only one season and tied to history to a degree.
Whereas Thrones/ASOIAF is multiple seasons and books and not tied to any real-life events. Like, the scheming and politics in Thrones is more complex and intricate than Shogun, but it also has a lot of room to set all this up. And, of course, it failed as a show to deliver on any of those politics and as books, its complexity has caused us a 14 year wait for not even the conclusion to the series.
If Shogun were late season Thrones, Toranaga would've just stabbed Ishido at their parlay, and then executed Ochiba and the heir in front of everyone. And no one would give a shit.
Toranaga (most likely) pushed Mariko's father to kill the Taigo. Condemning her to a life of shame. And in stead of letting her die, he married her off to Buntaro, where we saw how utterly miserable she was. He didn't save her, he kept her around as another (ultimately very) useful tool.
Toranaga didn't 'find' Mariko as a tool. He created her usefulness.
John also had his own agenda, and like everyone else he was outplayed by Toranaga. But he at least seemed to care about people. He regretted the gardeners death, he cared for Fuji, and he loved Mariko so much that he was willing to behead her to save her soul.
Toranaga has always been a cold, ruthless bastard, driven by his desire to become Shogun. Who literally noone suspects because he kept saying he was pulling all this shit for the good of Japan. We saw him say twice that he had no intention of becoming Shogun? When yeah, we saw how that turned out.
Dude was dishonest to literally everyone. Even to a man he was about to decapitate he wouldn't tell the truth, and we got his smug superior grin instead.
I really don't think this show gives Toranaga any morally redeeming qualities. And many other characters played their own games, but at least they had their moments of humanity. Hell, even fucking Buntaro helped John pull the Erasmus out of the sea.
I would just refute this point. Toronaga basically confirmed it to Yabu with that line. He was feeding Yabu's line right back at him, letting him know A) my spies were watching you from the very fucking start and B) yes, I am that goddamn ruthless and power hungry.
But yes, he is a cold and ruthless bastard. He does seem to view everything he's doing as creating a lasting peace, but he cares little about the sacrifices he must make along the way to that lasting peace. He isn't even phased by his own son's death, just another pawn.
As everyone has said what a phenomenal season and finale. You gotta stick the landing to make a show a flawless show and this one did it in spades.
I think my favorite thing about the whole season was the Sun Tzu maxim, "Every battle is won before it is ever fought." The entire season was built up to that idea and Toranaga's long speech to Yabushige. Maybe a bit too "James bond villain explains his plot" but it made sense, especially since everything with Toranaga has been so opaque in the show.
I really did enjoy seeing the flash forwards of old man Blackthorne in bed, lets us know his adventures did finally end some day ... but as they say, thats a story for another time!
if Anna Sawai doesn't win an emmy we riot!
I think my favorite thing about the whole season was the Sun Tzu maxim, "Every battle is won before it is ever fought." The entire season was built up to that idea and Toranaga's long speech to Yabushige. Maybe a bit too "James bond villain explains his plot" but it made sense, especially since everything with Toranaga has been so opaque in the show.
I really did enjoy seeing the flash forwards of old man Blackthorne in bed, lets us know his adventures did finally end some day ... but as they say, thats a story for another time!
if Anna Sawai doesn't win an emmy we riot!
I think one of my favorite moments was Toranaga reading the letter from Ochiba and smirking a little bit followed by a feeling of relief.
Dude was cold but even him couldn't tank the confirmation of the success of all his plans.
Dude was cold but even him couldn't tank the confirmation of the success of all his plans.
This was fucking great. What a finale. No pointless bombast. No needless CGI fest.
Just resolutions to all questions and character arcs. And in doing so they are able to convey the exact pecking order in the show, who each person is, where they stand, and what just happened throughout the entire plot. Toranaga is such an amazing character. So is Blackthorne. I wasn't sure on those two at the beginning, but man did they execute so well.
Just resolutions to all questions and character arcs. And in doing so they are able to convey the exact pecking order in the show, who each person is, where they stand, and what just happened throughout the entire plot. Toranaga is such an amazing character. So is Blackthorne. I wasn't sure on those two at the beginning, but man did they execute so well.