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Shōgun |OT| An Epic Saga Of War, Passion And Power Set In Feudal Japan
- Thread starter DinkyDev
- Start date
- Entertainment Video/Streaming OT
One thing I miss from the old TV series was that Blackthorne and Toranaga's relationship was a lot more fleshed out.
There was more of a sense that they had a sort of mutual respect for each other
In comparison, I think the only times where they really bond in this new series is when Blackthrone teaches Toranaga how to dive and after he saves him in the aftermath of the earthquake.
There was more of a sense that they had a sort of mutual respect for each other
In comparison, I think the only times where they really bond in this new series is when Blackthrone teaches Toranaga how to dive and after he saves him in the aftermath of the earthquake.
I don't believe he is unfazed by the deaths of those closest to him, but that could be a very small circle where his son barely belonged. He is cold enough to still let everyone sacrifice themselves for him, but at the same time deaths are not meaningless. He might even feel somewhat proud about the fact that he can endure that pain for his goals because even that makes his actions justified.
I imagine a line of thought going on in his head similar to: "Hiromatsu is the one who dies, but it also makes me deeply sad, so we both made a sacrifice. Therefore I am justified to continue this plan to the very end."
What is really ruthless about him is that he is someone who benefits from perpetuating the ideals of Bushido and courtly manners because he understands that the higher your position, the less they apply to you. He cares for his equals, but will trample everyone else. Fuji's husband and the villagers being perfect examples of something that for him is disposable, but Hiromatsu wasn't.
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I never watched the old TV show, I may very well shortly. But this series makes clear that Toranaga and Blackthorne are not equals. He views Blackthorne as his pet, like the falcon. He has doesn't care if Blackthorne actually respects him, and he does not respect Blackthorne; although he can admire and learn from his spirit.
Blackthorne, like everyone else, is a lesser person; likely even lower than others due to being a foreigner. You don't really consider respecting a pet.
When it comes down to it, leveraging class in his favor might just be the one sentence description of Toranaga's plan.
I am from the highest of families, I can violate certain social rules and my standing remains. If Ishido violates them in order to play the same game I'm a playing, then he loses support from everyone.
I am from the highest of families, I can violate certain social rules and my standing remains. If Ishido violates them in order to play the same game I'm a playing, then he loses support from everyone.
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I agree. But even in the way Toranaga let Yabu know what he was all about he was playing games. Yabu knew Toranaga was power hungry, playing games. He asked to tell him the truth. And instead of being honest, when Toranaga had literally nothing to lose he maintained his smug sense of solitary superiority by saying 'why tell a dead man the future.'
Toranaga's attitude towards John is probably the thing that makes me hate him the most. 'I don't think the Anjin will ever make his way home' combined with 'I thought about killing him many times, but I didn't. It's not even that he's important. He just makes me laugh.'
So you know John is fucking sick and tired of Japan and wants to go home, but you keep him around literally for shits and giggles? And John doesn't even know he's being kept on a fucking leash? Doesn't get more disrespectful than that.
Shit, at least Toranaga set his falcon free.
Eh, it is really shitty behavior of Toranaga. But, the pet comparison makes further sense when you understand that Toranaga feels he knows what his best for John. He may want to go home, but we see he has no purpose in England. And were he ever to return his life would be full of regret. In Japan, he is able to let go of his ambition and lust for a small, petty war with the Catholics and Portuguese and pursue a new life with a purpose. Now that purpose is a lie, Toranaga has no want of his fleet. But, John doesn't know that and is thus happy with his new life and purpose.
Again, like a pet, he doesn't need to know Toranaga is controlling the ball. He can just be happy in chasing it and not biting other people. It'd a good ending for John, the best he could ever get. Still, it is all based on lies and manipulation. And he may have realized it a bit at the end when he smirked to Toranaga, he may have understood then he's never leaving Japan. But he's alright in not knowing.
What an incredible show. Just unbelievable. Might creep up in my top 5 as time progresses…but am I the only one who felt disappointed from the finale? I mean the episode was amazing but it felt like part 1 of the finale, it ended so abruptly it felt extremely odd to me. Almost like they ran out of budget or something.
The show feels incomplete to me. Very weird.
The show feels incomplete to me. Very weird.
Apparently the book ends very abruptly as well...so I guess it's true to the source material lol.
I have a hard time believing the current (and future) situation is ultimately most beneficial to John. Toranaga might feel he knows what's best for John, but come on. Fuck Toranaga for believing that. And for actually enacting his will on another person. And the most hurt we've seen John is when Mariko died, and the aftermath of it. And Toranaga is the direct cause of her death.
We don't know what would have happened if John would have ever been allowed to go home, but at least if he would he wouldn't assuredly be in the direct vicinity of a Machiavellian sociopath who ruthlessly orders the people you love to die. Which I think would be a fairly big improvement in life.
The other books in the Asian Saga are far more Eurocentric than Shōgun so I'm unsure if this same creative team would have thag much interest in them.
I mean, we do kinda know from his own internal dream vision of his future. A life where his exploits achieved for him great wealth and seeming renown, but left him filled with nothing but regret and a longing to go back.
Let's be clear, John was essentially a pirate. He came to Japan to exploit the leadership in his war against the Portuguese for personal wealth and fame. He's no saint. And were he to return, he would likely continue that life.
What I think is interesting is that in the first episode of the series, I would bet that many Western viewers are watching this white man land in Japan and consciously or unconsciously perceiving it through an Anglocentric lens: "Oh man look out Japan, this guy is about to change everything and set your whole country on its ear!" And the series certainly gives hints of that at the start, with John's map-drawing scene (which is the most frequently viewed scene from the early episodes on YouTube). He came there to use them.
But then in the end, he winds up just being a useful clown. Loyal and useful and very much being used. It doesn't play to those Western expectations at all.
‘Shōgun’ Finale: Why Did Toranaga Smile at Yabushige Before Killing Him?
All the secrets behind that gripping final scene between Shōgun’s most fun rivals.
decider.com
Been a fan of Decider interviewing Justin Marks all season long, talking about certain scenes for each episode.
As for this article, I love that they (Kando & Marks) gave Asano all this freedom to improvise as Yabu, even at the very end.
Gai-Jin might be interesting. It's sets the end of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) Shogunate... same time period as the stupid fucking Tom Cruise movie. However, you're correct in that it's quite a lot more Eurocentric. They tried to do it once, but ended up halting production right after they started.
One thing I loved about this show was how you really felt the value of the European ship. It felt enormous and so did its loss. Nowadays machines that big or bigger are commonplace (planes, cargo ships etc), back then it would've just been this near-incomprehensibly complex weapon/tool and I think the show did a great job giving us that perspective.
Maybe so, that situation was one area I was hazy on and was another reason I wish I had read the book (or could remember if I had anyway) to better flesh that out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he isn't ruthless, just that like the the history you outline I think he is using the current status to his best advantage when the Ishido situation happens. He couldn't know Blackthorne would show up, he couldn't know how Mariko could come into play, he couldn't know exactly what his son would do, etc etc. There's a lot of fucked up cold people in this story, he just knew the best way to use it as opposed to, say Yabushige or Ishido himself.
All I can think of is a quote from Paul mooney
"Hollywood is crazy..the last samurai starring Tom Cruise? Give me a break That movie was offensive. Hollywood is crazy, I mean first they got The Mexican with Brad Pitt and now we got The Last Samurai with Tom Cruise, well I've written a film, maybe they'll produce my film.
The Last Nigga on Earth starring Tom Hanks." - Paul Mooney
That guy is completely missing the point of the movie. Cruise isn't the last Samurai. Ken Watanabe is.
Even though he's wrong about the film, I'll never not laugh at that joke.
Sure? But it's still a white savior story, where the perfect white guy comes in, learns how to be more native than the natives, uphold their values, fight other white people to defend the natives, fall in love with the exotic woman, and then go home. Don't get me wrong, well made movie, but a tropey savior flick at its core.
Anywho I just like that Shogun ends on a note that it begins with. People hide their hearts and Toranaga isn't a villain but he is just as if not significantly more ambitious than anyone else. Ishido wasn't off base at all with recognizing it in the opening scenes. The smirk to Yabushige at the end said it all, the talk with the courtesan mama, and a few others all point to it but the audience gets his followers perspective that he's a good man doing good things. Not a warlord warlording.
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Last Samurai is based on real events, but its obviously a Tom Cruise movie. Its not particularly subtle.
I don't know if the definition of the term extends this way, but one can argue it is a white savior film in the sense that it romanticizes whichever side he is on, precisely because that is the side he choses to align with. This removes the agency of the local conflict to speak for itself and it is reduced to a narrative where we don't need to understand perspectives outside of what he experiences; so the Meiji Restoration is painted as evil because he switches sides and decides to help the Samurai preserve their traditional way of life.
But on paper it doesn't quite fit the tropes you describe that neatly. Tom Cruise probably had his way to make the character more to his linking, so more likeable to audiences than what is very much a drunk who did well committing genocide in America so he is hired to commit it overseas, and then at his best he is never there to save anyone but to bear witness. That act of being the foreign "civilized" witness as instrument to suggest his perspective is more impartial and just is what in my opinion raises the most issues.
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Great show, not the best i've seen, but definitely high quality and up there! I'm really glad they only did 1 season and didn't mindlessly make it longer! We need more 1-2 seasons shows
the only thing i hated is the camera effect, making everything fucking blurry and distorted outside the focus at the center of the screen... so many beautiful places were ruined by these effects...
I don't really care if this have a deeper meaning, like the anjin being in a place he doesn't belong to, feeling otherworldly to him, i don't think it has, it was everywhere even when he was not present
the only thing i hated is the camera effect, making everything fucking blurry and distorted outside the focus at the center of the screen... so many beautiful places were ruined by these effects...
I don't really care if this have a deeper meaning, like the anjin being in a place he doesn't belong to, feeling otherworldly to him, i don't think it has, it was everywhere even when he was not present
Finally finished the last 3 episodes tonight after work, and man, what a fantastic fucking show.
The book is one of my favorite novels ever, and I also enjoyed the Richard Chamberlain mini series, but this was an absolutely wonderful adaptation, with excellent writing, direction, performances, music, costume design, cinematography, audio design, the whole damn thing.
Sure, there's a lot altered from the books, as most adaptations have, but I can't imagine a better adaptation of such a dense and layered story, told in a way that still captures the overall essence of the narrative, as well as pulling performances out of the actors that still convey their inner thoughts that are largely expressed in internal prose in the novel. I honestly think that aspect is the most impressive part of this show. Clavell does a great job getting into the heads of the characters in prose, but to see actors manage to convey that with significantly less dialogue, and largely through facial expressions, body language, and other subtle nuances is just really, really excellent to see.
The casting director(s) of this show deserve a raise, and this cast needs to be given more work (ideally with equally strong and compelling scripts) immediately.
I loved the finale, and I was very curious how they were going to wrap up the story in that last hour, but man, what a great way to do it.
I wouldn't mind seeing Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin adapted, as they are also very good books in "The Asian Saga," and while different from Shogun, it still retains a lot of the intrigue and strong characters, and could be some compelling television for two seasons.
Man, now that I've finished this, I really want to dive back into my Rise of the Ronin playthrough to continue living in roughly this period in time for a little longer (I know Ronin doesn't take place in the same time period, but still lol). I took a break from Ronin, but it's a great game, and this finale got me in the move to dive back into it.
The book is one of my favorite novels ever, and I also enjoyed the Richard Chamberlain mini series, but this was an absolutely wonderful adaptation, with excellent writing, direction, performances, music, costume design, cinematography, audio design, the whole damn thing.
Sure, there's a lot altered from the books, as most adaptations have, but I can't imagine a better adaptation of such a dense and layered story, told in a way that still captures the overall essence of the narrative, as well as pulling performances out of the actors that still convey their inner thoughts that are largely expressed in internal prose in the novel. I honestly think that aspect is the most impressive part of this show. Clavell does a great job getting into the heads of the characters in prose, but to see actors manage to convey that with significantly less dialogue, and largely through facial expressions, body language, and other subtle nuances is just really, really excellent to see.
The casting director(s) of this show deserve a raise, and this cast needs to be given more work (ideally with equally strong and compelling scripts) immediately.
I loved the finale, and I was very curious how they were going to wrap up the story in that last hour, but man, what a great way to do it.
I wouldn't mind seeing Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin adapted, as they are also very good books in "The Asian Saga," and while different from Shogun, it still retains a lot of the intrigue and strong characters, and could be some compelling television for two seasons.
Man, now that I've finished this, I really want to dive back into my Rise of the Ronin playthrough to continue living in roughly this period in time for a little longer (I know Ronin doesn't take place in the same time period, but still lol). I took a break from Ronin, but it's a great game, and this finale got me in the move to dive back into it.
Flowers are only flowers because they fall. But thankfully, the wind.
Basically even after falling flowers can take on a new life because of the wind.
The wind means a fallen flower can be taken on a new journey, and travel long distances before touching the ground rather than immediately hitting the floor. In other words, your life can take on new meaning long beyond your death
Lol, same. XD XD
Paul Mooney was hilarious.
I actually liked The Last Samurai, but, again, I understood that the title wasn't referring to Tom Cruise, but Ken Watanabe, and, while it's been ages since I've seen it, I'm pretty sure the movie kind of spells it out for you by the end.
I do remember sitting in the theater watching it back then thinking, "man, this reminds me so much of Shogun, I wish they'd do a modern version of it!"
I'm so, so glad it was adapted into a modern mini-series. I still dug the original mini-series, but, yeah, this one was fantastic.
The Last Samurai portrays an idea rather than a series of events, which is that Japan was undergoing a fundamental change by reconnecting to the wider world. Tom Cruise's character is not capable of enacting this change nor preventing it. Lots of things in the film, from the way characters are dressed to what weapons they used to fight are not accurate to the 1875 time period where it is set. However, what that film succeeds at, by and large is telling a rousing, heartfelt story about two men who develop a friendship and find peace within themselves amongst tremendous turmoil.
The more time passes the more the finale has kinda soured this incredible dish for me. Still an amazing show but I don't know why that finale just didn't feel right to me, there's so much I wanted to see and I didn't get to. If the books indeed end that way I guess they couldn't have done much more but man that's not a good ending imo
About the bolded, you're right here. But it was kind of a throwaway line from me. Didn't really mean much by it :)
About the rest of the post: I was dead tired when I watched the episode for the first time, so a lot of the meaning of the dreams was lost on me then, but could you explain what in them conveys that he has a longing to go back, coupled with regret? Because I watched it again just now (after a good night sleep lol) and I got the impression literally everything in the dream sequences was tied to just Mariko. The chipped katana as his failure to protect her. The rosary that he was still holding onto even in his old age, when he'd gone back to England, meaning he had never gotten over her death (all of this of course in the direct moments of grief after losing her). Even when he was threatening seppuku in front of Toranaga my read is he couldn't stand the thought of living on without her (fuck it, we live or we die), and at least by killing himself he could end his life and put a stop to the village's suffering at the same time.
True, John was feeling increasingly at home in Japan, but in the dream he still envisioned himself being old in England. I feel Toranaga knows this as well, with him saying to Yabu that might have to burn down the Erasmus again in the future.
I even think that Toranaga genuinely cares for John, even if a little, just like he cared for Mariko a little. He seemed moved when reading Mariko's last poem and the show framed the freeing of the falcon as him thinking of Mariko dying, her finally being free. I also got the impression he really didn't want to let John die.
So while I've come around on the idea of Toranaga being a totally heartless asshole,
fuck him anyway. John has made it abundantly clear several times he was done with the bullshit he saw in Japan. With the little value attached to life. Time and time again Toranaga forced him to stay. And while John might eventually feel at home in Japan (he is already starting to), that's not Toranaga's call to make. His (little) appreciation of John makes him (emotionally) manipulate John to the highest degree. Deciding John can't take his life in his grief for Mariko, but that he should have a purpose rebuilding the Erasmus. Which Toranaga sees fit to destroy again as he pleases. He's literally toying with him, playing god with his life's purpose and ambitions. In the last shot we see of John he might have realized that himself. How he is being played. John might even be grateful to Toranaga for not letting him kill himself and give himself new purpose.
But fuck it if Toranaga isn't one hell of an abusive and toxic asshole. Just to speak in modern day vernacular. And as with all toxic assholes I hope their victims realize this, and decide to get the fuck out. As I do for John.
Yup, that was a great part of the show. As much as I dislike Toranaga, seeing the hierarchy of power unfold, and finding out what place John has in this, compared to basically all powerful Shogun to be was both refreshing and amazingly well done. Perhaps we can bring in the Rock to shake it up even more!
In his conversation with Yabushige he says that he doesn't 'guide the wind, he just studies it'. But I think he's just full of shit when he says that. Perhaps that's because he isn't willing to divulge to Yabushige how far he is willing to go to get what he wants out of his sense of secrecy which is part of his 'secret heart'. Perhaps it's because he isn't willing to admit to himself how manipulative and abusive he is. But I think he is full of shit.
When you're making your oldest friend commit seppuku to sell the idea you're beaten and have given up, you're engaging in such a high level of manipulation that you're creating entirely new opportunities. Yes, he does so by using pre-existing conditions, like that friendship. But he also keeps valuable people around to use when the time comes. Mariko has wanted to die for a long time. She asked Toranaga to die often. He always refused, waiting for the right time to use her. Mariko realized this as well halfway through the series. She just thought her part was to get the hostages out, in service of the country's well being. Not in service of Toranaga's goal to become shogun.
In the start of the conversation you said you didn't think Toranaga was a bad guy. He plays with peoples lives. He gets Mariko's family killed, keeps her in a rotten relationship with an asshole husband when she wants to die, but orders her to her death when it is politically useful for him. That pretty much fits my definition of 'bad guy'.
Oh, also the act of slaughtering entirely innocent people as part of his little fun play with John. Also...kinda bad guy behavior there.
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So, they talk about this on the podcast of the episode but it was clear from me even watching the first time (except for the dream). But John likes it in Japan. Through his time in Japan, he has learned self-control and to live life with a purpose. We saw this already when he is reunited with his crew and for the first time sees them the same way the Japanese people viewed him when he arrived, as a filthy, uncouth barbarian. He is disgusted by them; by their behavior, their uncleanliness, and lack of respect. When he beats his own crewman, he's actually beating his old self.
Mariko is the one that makes him understand the lesson she's been trying to teach him, "we live and we die. We control nothing beyond that." Previously John only cared about his freedom, living his life for himself and seeking to secure wealth and fame. She is the one that tells him he is a prisoner to his own freedom. What exactly has his "freedom" won him? A family in England he cares nothing about. A life at sea as a pirate. And now a prisoner to the Japanese. Mariko tries to instill into him that serving a higher purpose is a more important and noble pursuit. In Japan, no one is free; there is only duty. At any moment you can be killed, whether by an earthquake or people. So, how you live is more important than freedom.
The podcast talks about the similarities and final difference between Yabushige and John. These two men are much alike, always scheming to get out ahead and win wealth for themselves. The difference is that in the end John moves past this desire, whereas Yabushige is unable to do so and is killed for it. We see how calm and controlled John is when they return from Osaka, whereas Yabu is losing his mind. And it's John "the barbarian" that tells him to "pull himself together." His willing sacrifice of himself for the village shows how he finally understands Mariko's words. He is willing to end his life to save the village. Personal wealth and freedom are forgotten, only duty and purpose.
And the dream visions show John his life were he to leave. An regret filled life where despite all his success, his dying moments are still thinking about Japan and Mariko. By accepting Mariko's teachings and burying her rosary, he finally gives up on that dream and devotes himself to the purpose of the village, serving Toranaga and building a fleet. Now, we know this purpose is a lie. But John doesn't fully know that, and even if he did, he'd likely still choose to say. He has found his peace.
Sure, still love it though.
What were you hoping to see?
I feel the exact opposite, really. The finale elevated the show quite a bit for me.
I wanted to see maybe some actual conflict with toranaga and ishido, see some proper closure for blackthorn, it felt quite rushed. It felt like it was building up to this epic finale and I wanted to see Toranaga face death or some serious damage but nothing really happens. Like I said earlier it felt like part 1 of a finale, a fine episode but doesn't feel finished.
I agree to be honest. Loved the show but the battle that followed afterwards is among the most important battles in history. There's a lot of interesting stuff that happened with Tokugawa Ieyasu not told in this series. Feels like a lost opportunity not to show more
I think this is pretty much the masterstroke of the show being effective.
Episode 9 is titled "Crimson Sky", when there is no major battle between armies, but the fatal blow is struck nonetheless by Mariko as she ends her own lifelong war.
Toranage even spells it out for Yabu, "Crimson Sky is over", the battle is already won. It encapsulates everything about Toranaga and his explanation for what happens next is far more effective, and thematically consistent, than portraying a large scale battle. Knowing what happens next, and Toranaga showing that he clearly knows what happens next, is much more interesting than just watching it play out. No-one else was really playing the same game as Toranaga, other than the Madam.
The destination wasn't really the point, but the way these characters interact and influence eachother amid Toranaga's journey. Revealing who Toranaga is and focusing on the huge impacts Blackthorne's time in Japan has had on him is far more compelling than any rote set battle piece IMO.
Not showing is sometimes more important than showing. Honestly, Toranaga riding into battle on a horse with a sword, or at least his soldiers doing it while he watches isn't really the point of the show.
Ya, showing the battle wouldn't actually reveal anything new. The win wasn't through the battle or tactics during it, it was everything up to the battle. The only reason to include it would be for spectacle only, and imo that's not a good reason to include something.
The show was always character driven and a battle would take away from that.
I think the conversation between Toranaga and Yabushige addresses this pretty well. Yabushige asks if Toranaga still plans for Crimson Sky, and Toranaga replies:
"Crimson Sky is already finished.
After all we've been through, I thought you of all people would see. I sent a woman to do what an army never could"
As other hands pointed out, Toranaga had managed checkmate long before a war with armies had begun.
So we did see a conflict per say, just not on the battlefield.
I get from a viewer standpoint it maybe might not be as exciting as a grand battle would have been, but from a plot/character arc it was pretty perfect imo.