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texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,295
Indonesia
Compared to previous gens, indie (and AA) games and studios are on the rise nowadays. But that's not always a good thing to have. With more games being developed and published, there will be more competition in the market. The problem is, indies and some smaller scope (AA) games don't really have the means to promote their games the same way as blockbuster AAA ones with commendable marketing budgets. Besides budget, they also don't have well-known brand identity. Unlike AAA games, most outlet and gaming sites won't rush to write articles and videos every week to talk about indie and lesser known games. It's up to us.

But why?
Many successful businesses, including video game studios, started from the bottom. Some indie devs show promising prospects, and if they can continue to grow with one successful game after another, they might be the ones who will provide us AAA games in the next few years. Moreover, many AAA devs are straying away from traditional game design and philosophy nowadays, everything is open world and service games. You wouldn't want that, right? Meanwhile, indies and smaller games still offer the traditional gaming experience, single player which you can finish without having to worry about microtransactions, weekly updates and such. They might be the ones who will replace today's AAA studios sometime in the future.

What can we do?
Obviously, you can buy their games. This is the most direct but not really a budget-friendly way to support them. But worry not, there's another way, which is the power of the Internet. There's 2 kinds of marketing that I know of, paid and organic marketing. Paid is what most big publishers do (though some smaller ones, even indies do this too). But the 2nd kind of marketing is what we can do. It's simple, when you find an interesting indie/unknown game, share it everywhere. If you have a social media account(s), you can share the game there. The more followers you have, the better. If you have accounts in various video game boards (like Era), you can also post a thread about any news the game had. Yes, basically it's like we treat AAA games here regularly.

You saw some news about new trailer of some game, you create the thread about it. If there are some impressions or previews being posted online, you post a thread about it to compile them or share them on your timeline. So, why can't we do the same for indie and other smaller games? Yes, there's very high chance that your post will be ignored. But that's fine, as replies and activities are not the main goal of your post. What really matters is the impressions. For example, your thread might only get 5k views, but what if 1% of those ended up buying the game? That's already 50 copies you contributed to support the devs. And it doesn't stop there, someone who saw your post might re-share the game on their timeline or other sites, which will lead to more impressions. Every little action you make to support the game may help the devs one way or another.

Basically, I think it's the time for us to be more positive and supportive towards indies and smaller games and promote them however we can, even if you ended up not buying them. Every little thing we do would mean a lot to them.
 

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
Aren't we already doing all of this? At least here I see many threads for indie games, or even users asking for good indies to play, i assume we all have a good mix of AA/AAA and indie titles in our catalogues.
 
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texhnolyze

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,295
Indonesia
Aren't we already doing all of this? At least here I see many threads for indie games, or even users asking for good indies to play, i assume we all have a good mix of AA/AAA and indie titles in our catalogues.
The keyword is more. I see them every now and then, but they're still too few and far between. Meanwhile, you can have 3 threads about a single AAA game on the 1st page at one time.

So... Basically you want people to become unpaid marketing department for publishers and devs, basically?

Plenty of people are already doing that though, hahaha.
Yes. Because while blockbuster games already have enough marketing as it is, and yet people still do unpaid marketing department for those games.
 

Brandon

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,977
I don't see any problem. The good games always shine through. Celeste, Hollow Knight, Dead Cells all received tons of love and support and were included alongside AAA games like God of War as equally great games.

Indies are getting plenty of support especially with the Nintendo Switch.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,507
Good indie games get lots of coverage on this website in my opinion. With games like Celeste and Hollow Knight being part of GOTY conversations, Gamepass launching indie titles on day one on the service (which ensured lots of conversation on games like Ashen, Mutant Year Zero and Below) and Switch and PC ecosystems that spawn all kinds of fun indie games.

Anyway, I think everyone should create topics about the games they love when there is news. Indie or non-indie.
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I think that good games don't go unnoticed, so I'm not going out of my way to promote them. all of this sounds excessive.
 

Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
Electing politicians who will fight for better labor rights, free healthcare, free education, etc would be one way of helping indies and AA beyond merely giving them money for the products they produce
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,309
i mean, if i were an 'influencer' i'd do my part in spotlighting under the radar stuff. but beyond buying a game and maybe making a thread about it what can you really do

imo the grounds are much more fertile for AA/indie success than it was 5-10 years go, so a lot of the good fight has been won. it's not ideal but we're quite in an AAA GaaS dystopia either
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Indies do get good exposure these days; Switch eShop is dominated by indies really, and even the news just put them side by side with AAAs.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
Yes, not only with the games that make the cut on the big channels and news.

Search the steam, eshop, psn and live, give it a chance of the unsung indie games :)

As I am solo developing my game (hope to launch 3 years from now), I became more supportive and iterested on the indie scene... A shoutout to my fellow indie solo devs here <3
 

Black_Red

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
I mean I do recommend some indie game to my friends, but not to "help" those games (even if I think its a great side effect) but because those are some reallly great games that I think my friends should play.
Like celeste, hollow knight and undertale, also, every single freind from my group bough undercooked after a switch night lol.
 
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texhnolyze

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,295
Indonesia
I mean, celeste was a finalist for goty. That's a huge deal for indies.
Yes, and we need more of them.

Good indie games get lots of coverage on this website in my opinion. With games like Celeste and Hollow Knight being part of GOTY conversations, Gamepass launching indie titles on day one on the service (which ensured lots of conversation on games like Ashen, Mutant Year Zero and Below) and Switch and PC ecosystems that spawn all kinds of fun indie games.

Anyway, I think everyone should create topics about the games they love when there is news. Indie or non-indie.
I'm note solely talking about this sites. As I explained above, you can simply share any news about them anywhere. True, that we've had Celeste, Hollow Knight, and such every now and then. But they're just a few that are more fortunate out of thousands of others who are not. And as many GOTY lists have proven, there are lots of other unknown indie games that are GOTY worthy that people barely know.

I think that good games don't go unnoticed, so I'm not going out of my way to promote them. all of this sounds excessive.
I think what's excessive is promoting heavily promoted blockbuster games.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,507
Yes, and we need more of them.


I'm note solely talking about this sites. As I explained above, you can simply share any news about them anywhere. True, that we've had Celeste, Hollow Knight, and such every now and then. But they're just a few that are more fortunate out of thousands of others who are not. And as many GOTY lists have proven, there are lots of other unknown indie games that are GOTY worthy that people barely know.


I think what's excessive is promoting heavily promoted blockbuster games.

If an indie is good, it'll get the attention. Cuphead, Hollow Knight, Mutant Year Zero, Celeste, Ashen, etc. are the living proof of that.

I'm sure a game like Tunic will get that kind of attention too in the future.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,719
The Milky Way
If the game is good, I'll buy it.
Indeed it's this simple.

I will buy great indies at launch though rather than waiting for a sale or for them to hit GwG/PS+ (eg Celeste, Monster Boy, QUBE 2 etc), which I think is the best way I can show support. I'd also bang on and on about the games I really like on here (did I mention Celeste?)

If a good indie game is on Game Pass at launch, I might not buy it but I'll certainly give it the love it deserves on here and also provide a review on the respective store.
If an indie is good, it'll get the attention. Cuphead, Hollow Knight, Mutant Year Zero, Celeste, Ashen, etc. are the living proof of that.

I'm sure a game like Tunic will get that kind of attention too in the future.
Tunic is going to be absolutely glorious. I really can't wait for that game.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Indie games are still products. I only have a limited amount of money and time, and I'm not going to allocate any of it to supporting a product just so it can sell more. If a dev wants me to give them my time or money, then it's on them or others who are willing to convince me to do that by making a game that I want to play and want to recommend.

I think it's great to be supportive, but I think your attitude that people should be doing whatever they can is misguided. These aren't charities or non-profits that rely on donations which they then give back to the world, they're commercial products.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
Totally agree with the sentiment that AAA games are over-represented and there's not enough discussion around smaller games. I don't often think about creating threads but you have a point - in order to foster discussion, it has to start from somewhere, even if the majority ignore it.

I also like to point out that we used to have an indie thread for showcasing games, but it got recently closed due to a lack of general discussion/interest -
 

DarkFlame92

Member
Nov 10, 2017
5,656
At this point i dont think indies need any push. We live in the indie golden era. The games in between budget have been lost and get no praise for what they are
 

gdt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,557
People blindly hop on basically any devs dick. Until they say or do something they don't like. It's ok.
 
Yeah, I agree with you, but the problem is often times I recommended any indie game to my friends they always rejected it because it's not AAA games. It's like they have stigma that indie games lack polish which often I refute to no avail.

The example would be Indivisible, I promote it by comparing it with Valkyrie Profile, but they're no longer interested upon learning that it was an indie game, not some game made by the likes of Square Enix.

Well I still gonna keep trying to promote them, who knows they will change.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
I think there's still a lot of people who need to get over the 'It's not AAA so i'm automatically not interested' barrier because it's stupid, but at the same time Indie games can still be bad too. I'm not going to excuse a game being poorly made just because it's made by a small team. If they're wanting me to pay for it then it still needs to be a good quality product.
 
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texhnolyze

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,295
Indonesia
If an indie is good, it'll get the attention. Cuphead, Hollow Knight, Mutant Year Zero, Celeste, Ashen, etc. are the living proof of that.

I'm sure a game like Tunic will get that kind of attention too in the future.
They're special cases, and some of those you mentioned are even backed by publishers. Yes, it's good that they already get this much visibility.

There's something that tie these successful indie games, they're available on consoles after PC, or simply being published on consoles from the start. To achieve that as indie devs is not easy, especially if it's their first game. Before that, the majority of other indie devs need to be successful on PC first to gain popularity. That's what I'm trying to convey here.

Put them on gamepass, perfect income and marketing for AA.
If only it's that easy.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
I'm not going to excuse a game being poorly made just because it's made by a small team. If they're wanting me to pay for it then it still needs to be a good quality product.

there's no problem with that, i assure you. there's far too many quality titles being swept under the rug because they can't get on the media blitz
 

arcticice

Member
Oct 31, 2017
521
I mostly agree with what everyone is saying in this thread, if a game is good, we'll buy it.

However, if you did enjoy an indie game that didn't get a lot of exposure in the media, then it doesn't hurt to mention it on different forums like the one we have here.

Take Crosscode as an example, an amazing RPG, but most of the people wouldn't even have heard its name, but if we mention it somewhere, there are bound to be some people who will look at it, and a few of them will actually get it.

Shadow Tactics is another example of a great indie title that didn't and still doesn't get a lot of attention in the media.

So, i get that people will play games that suit them, we can't just go buy an indie game just because it's an indie. But if there is a good indie game, then we can at least help spread the word on it.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,991
I think Hollow Knight was the best game of 2018 and I'm already marketing that game one way or another by giving it positive feedback. The best way to get sales is by having a great game. It doesnt really matter in what budget category it falls.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
You can't force people to talk about shit they're not interested out of the goodness of their hearts. Majority of people are interested in AAA games more than indies hence less indie threads. That's just nature of business. Indie games are not charity.
 

sbkodama

Member
Oct 28, 2017
203
With all the indie there is now how can some of you say that every good ones have visibility ?
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
I spent a LOT of money on indies in the last two years, mainly because most seem to have embraced the physical format (though sometimes limited) to distribute their products.
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,115
Canada
We shouldnt support indie/AA purely because they are not AAA.

the good ones come through, that's really all that matters. At least to me.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
there's no problem with that, i assure you. there's far too many quality titles being swept under the rug because they can't get on the media blitz

I'm not really sure that's the case any more. Not every game is going to get massive exposure, but that's not limited to indie games either. Plenty of games from large publishers launch with very little fanfare for one reason or another and get quickly forgotten. Good indies do get the attention they deserve for the most part, but with so many being released it's impossible to give equal exposure to all of them.

Talking from the perspective of someone who has 300+ digital games on PS4 with, I'd guess, at least 250 of them being indie or smaller budget games. I do my part.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
Good indies do get the attention they deserve for the most part, but with so many being released it's impossible to give equal exposure to all of them.

I disagree, the media cycles of AAA and indies are really worlds apart - interviews, exposure pieces, press releases. I agree that its impossible to give equal exposure but just by looking at the general attitude, its "be good and you'll make it" which we know is far from true. That sort of logic doesn't even guarantee that AAA games will do gangbusters.

Another interesting tell is how we have so many "unknown" PC indies becoming breakout successes on the Switch. Whats going on there? Did the games become good there ? ;)
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,815
Brazil
If an indie is good, it'll get the attention. Cuphead, Hollow Knight, Mutant Year Zero, Celeste, Ashen, etc. are the living proof of that.

I'm sure a game like Tunic will get that kind of attention too in the future.

Full Metal Furies is one of my favorite games I played last year and everyone goes like "but this name will give me the pet cooties"
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
I disagree, the media cycles of AAA and indies are really worlds apart - interviews, exposure pieces, press releases. I agree that its impossible to give equal exposure but just by looking at the general attitude, its "be good and you'll make it" which we know is far from true. That sort of logic doesn't even guarantee that AAA games will do gangbusters.

I agree with that, and I even said in my last post that this can happen to AAA games too. But the stuff you've mentioned involves spending lots of money, which indie devs can't do. If you're suggesting that indie devs are automatically entitled to the same level of exposure without spending the same buckets of cash then I disagree. The main problem indie devs have right now when it comes to exposure is trying to set themselves a part and getting noticed in the sea of indies that release every day. I'm not sure how you tackle that problem without suggesting they spend cash they don't have. The market is very over saturated, but the best games do generally get the attention they deserve. I can't really think of many indie games that I thought were fantastic that had little to no exposure. I'm sure they're some, but there's also AAA games that fall into that category.

There's never any guarantee of success in any industry, but generally speaking the better your product is the more attention it will get naturally. But the main problem is simply there are so many indies being released that some get lost. It sucks but it can't really be avoided.
 

superNESjoe

Developer at Limited Run Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,163
I see a lot of people saying if it's a good game it'll sell well or get recognition and that couldn't be farther from the truth. For every Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, or Celeste there are dozens of high quality, unique, and beautiful games that sell so poorly the devs fall out and no one ever knew they existed.

The volume of games releasing is simply too high. It's not just garbage getting lost in the crowd. Sometimes it's far better games.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
"Should we be more supportive of indie (and AA) games and developers? Yes, I think we should"

Unless these indies want to pay me then no. If I want to support their product then I'll buy it.

I'm the customer, not their marketer.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
If an indie is good, it'll get the attention. Cuphead, Hollow Knight, Mutant Year Zero, Celeste, Ashen, etc. are the living proof of that.

I'm sure a game like Tunic will get that kind of attention too in the future.
Tunic having prerelease coverage at all is already atypical. Look at something like Fight'N Rage which when it's mentioned is almost always as a legit amazing arcade style beatemup, but outside of conversations specifically about beatemups is practically never mentioned. Like, I only ever heard of it because Super Best Friends used to explicitly spotlight indie beatemups. Or also CrossCode, which is in the much more popular genre of action RPG and quite frankly should have been in the games of 2018 short list, but I've seen literally one write-up about it ever.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,329
there's no problem with that, i assure you. there's far too many quality titles being swept under the rug because they can't get on the media blitz

That's just the entertainment industry in general. There's too much good content. Plenty of great TV shows, movies, and books go unnoticed. I don't think it's the consumer's responsibility to do free advertising for these companies. They fulfilled their transaction by buying the game. Content discovery through algorithms is probably the most that can be asked for. Also there are way too few game demos. If you outright try to sell your product without a demo and don't have a marketing budget then what are you doing? Only game I ever kickstarted is one that the devs created a demo for well before the game finished, Indivisible. Word of mouth made me aware of the game but it was only after playing it that got me interested.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
We already do this. If something interests us a thread is made, regardless of whether it's a small indie or a big AAA game. It's genuine.

I'm not buying a game off some manufactured hype, like OP wants to create.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
Content discovery through algorithms is probably the most that can be asked for.

i like how this is the logical conclusion after all these points are raised. (i mean this genuinely)

People say its not the consumers job to do their marketing, but when people are creating a half dozen Smash/GOW/TLOU2 threads, its basically whats being asked for. Our own single indie megathread died due to lack of activity -so I dunno, there must be some middle ground to help foster discussion attention to other games.

showcases like this are amazing

 
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texhnolyze

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,295
Indonesia
I see a lot of people saying if it's a good game it'll sell well or get recognition and that couldn't be farther from the truth. For every Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, or Celeste there are dozens of high quality, unique, and beautiful games that sell so poorly the devs fall out and no one ever knew they existed.

The volume of games releasing is simply too high. It's not just garbage getting lost in the crowd. Sometimes it's far better games.
Exactly. All these high profile indie games are, outside of fantastic, also lucky.

"Should we be more supportive of indie (and AA) games and developers? Yes, I think we should"

Unless these indies want to pay me then no. If I want to support their product then I'll buy it.

I'm the customer, not their marketer.
But people are already marketing blockbuster games for free. Why shouldn't they also spend a bit more of their time, doing the same for indies?