Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,545
I don't think this is specific to the Smash community, and I also don't think it's fair to pin it on the community as a whole. The Smash community is so much bigger than this group of top players. Most play in locals with almost no online presence.

We just need to hold the individual people, and where applicable, groups of people accountable.

I think much of the sexual harassment towards women that goes in is emblematic of a wider problem that I see throughout the industry. Both at conventions, events, and working professionally in the industry itself, women are a minority and men are assholes around them. I suspect a lot of these men have next to zero female contact, and just don't behave well in social situations.

I've been to a fair number of Smash events, and a even more general gaming and FGC events, and the way women are treated is always weird and awkward. Obviously these specific people need to be held accountable, but we need to do a lot more to make these spaces inclusive and safe for everyone. I think a lot of the problem is that a lot of communities don't take a zero-tolerance policy to this stuff, and they let things slide, behave permissively, and that leads to worse things happening or happening more frequently.

If you look at sites for events like Evo, they don't even have a Code of Conduct on the website. Without that, it just tells me that they don't care. Because the unfortunate reality is that by default, people will behave inappropriately. So if there's no clear pathway on how to tackle that, then that implicitly, permits that behaviour. I think that's just a tiny part of the issue, but these communities need to be outspoken.

I'm just kind of rambling now, but obviously this is very frustrating to hear. As a straight white cis male I haven't experienced the vast majority of prejudice and harassment that people face in these communities, but I recognise that we need to do a lot more.
 

The_Strokes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,902
México
If you look at sites for events like Evo, they don't even have a Code of Conduct on the website. Without that, it just tells me that they don't care.

This has been a recurrent topic of conversation in the FGC dating months back, probably around the LTG ban stuff. I don't know how, in 2020, there isn't an established code of conduct officiated by the most prominent TOs in the scene.

Being grassrots and using that as excuse is not admissible anymore.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,175
Being grassrots and using that as excuse is not admissible anymore
Grassroots hasn't meant what it used to for years since people kept using it to describe their tournaments endorsed by corporations.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if it wanting to keep "being grassroots" was all just another of saying "I hope we don't go so big that regulations sweep out our secret skeletons."
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
This has been a recurrent topic of conversation in the FGC dating months back, probably around the LTG ban stuff. I don't know how, in 2020, there isn't an established code of conduct officiated by the most prominent TOs in the scene.

Being grassrots and using that as excuse is not admissible anymore.
From what I've seen, there is no code of conduct because you'd have to ban half of the leadership and a quarter of the players. If you don't think that reality was missed by the people at the top, I can guarantee you it wasn't. No code of conduct means more space to behave badly.

Bad actors can't be expect to put in place policies that do them harm or will implicate them in the future (or retroactively, for that matter). That includes leadership AND the communities that elevate them. I've seen enough comments on SRK to know that a fair portion of the community ain't shit. Homophobes, racists, misogynists, and general all-purpose dickheads. Those people are not even capable of -- much less willing to -- go through the process needed to develop a proper and functioning code of conduct with an oversight body for enforcement. Which is why some 20 years after the first EVO tournaments, it is only now being created in the wake of scandal and removals.
 

GeoNeo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,458
Good to see Facebook Gaming drop him. Disgusting stuff from Zero.

Will the authorities be called on all these people that have been grooming or worse having sex with minors. In the Smash community these cases are not even that old so I don't see how they can get away with no jail time.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Grassroots hasn't meant what it used to for years since people kept using it to describe their tournaments endorsed by corporations.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if it wanting to keep "being grassroots" was all just another of saying "I hope we don't go so big that regulations sweep out our secret skeletons."

I've seen more better casual wargaming groups have actual house rules to ensure everyone has a good time and no one suffers from dickheadry.

As you state, keeping things "casual" is a bit of a powerplay as it helps those at the top consolidate influence.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
I think much of the sexual harassment towards women that goes in is emblematic of a wider problem that I see throughout the industry
That's the thing: it's not just the industry. Gaming isn't exceptional in this stuff being endemic. It's our entire fucking society which has the problem.

Unfortunately we still live on a planet that doesn't (or can't) take care of most of its population; where money still holds more power than ethics, kindness or collaboration; and that is completely subsumed in problematic power dynamics like structural sexism, structural racism, etc. We live in a savage patriarchy where abusers historically get away with shit.

The reason that we hear more about misbehaviour in spheres like gaming is because it's ENTERTAINMENT. That is, the people in positions of power have constant friction with their consumers, and are constantly in the spotlight of millions.

The horrors that are coming to light in the last two weeks are not unique to gaming. Not unique to ANY industry or culture. It's ubiquitous.

The finance industry? Will be the same.
The logistics industry? Will be the same.
The consumer retail industry? Will be the same.
The food production industry? Will be the same.

But youll hear about it 1% as much. The reason this all seems exceptional is that gaming, like TV and film, is an ENTERTAINMENT industry, which is exceptional like those others in how its power holders are treated. The cult of celebrity means that power holders can become household names - and all their behavior will be in the public eye a thousandfold more.

compare that to any one of the industries I listed above. There have been huge crackdowns on misbehaviour in countless industries, but they're not celebrities so it isn't discussed anywhere near as much. Can you name the CEO of Unilever? Can you name any food production industry Managing Director? because I guarantee you these power-holding people will often also engage in abuse, but we'll never hear about it, because they're faceless suits ignored by most of human society.

Sexual abuse comes from a place of power; and in an entertainment industry like gaming, the power holders are also celebrities who are in the limelight at all times, thus we see their discretions more clearly and intimately. Unlike the anonymous, faceless mass of every other industry on the planet. And as our society becomes more focused on accountability and justice for sexual abuse sufferers, more of these people will be found.

do hope that it eventually begins extending to the less exciting and culturally engaged individuals in every other industry, not just entertainment.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
It may exist outside of gaming but shows me another industry where people actively denounce the people guilty of this shit and doesn't welcome them back a few years later.
 

beansontoast

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2020
951
Apparently Sky is talking in private to prominent people on Twitter who has raised concerns about him and they have ended up coming out defending him afterwards.




To me these sounds like the kind of statements someone might make if threatened with bankruptcy from the legal fees of expensive lawyers hired to take you to court for defamation.
 

Tbone5189

Succ-essor
Member
Mar 25, 2020
4,919

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328


Get ready for a long read, it's 64 pages long.

Oh I wasn't paying attention to the posts above me. Sorry, I just woke up.
 

Merc_

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,592


Get ready for a long read, it's 64 pages long.

Oh I wasn't paying attention to the posts above me. Sorry, I just woke up.

Reading through this just shows how Zero is completely trash through and through.

Also props to her for showing how full of shit Sky is as well. There's no way he didn't know what was happening.
 

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,247
Straya M8
Sky is still playing victim on twitter. Zero is done for but we can't let this manipulative piece of shit that is Sky Williams get away with this.
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
These are the like billionaire communities who do all this sick shit, except these people don't have the money and power to keep it quiet forever.
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
Those of you saying these issues aren't specific to Smash, it looks like thinly-veiled whataboutism. Smash has issues that are clearly out of control, and very little is being done to curb the rampant sexual predation on women and children. Until the community at large is ready to take an active role in fostering a safe environment for women and minors, competitive Smash needs to go on hiatus.

I'm disgusted by the fact that so many of the game's top pros were condemning in public, while hiding their own assaults privately. No wonder Nintendo didn't want shit to do with the scene.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
Starting to be clear that Sky is mass DMing people to try to convince them to save his ass, while his statement has been coming for 4 days. Scumbag.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,004
Sky said he was writing a statement like 3 days ago when the first people living in his house got outed. Then more stuff kept happening and probably couldn't find a way to clear himself.
 

Seiniyta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
529
Those of you saying these issues aren't specific to Smash, it looks like thinly-veiled whataboutism. Smash has issues that are clearly out of control, and very little is being done to curb the rampant sexual predation on women and children. Until the community at large is ready to take an active role in fostering a safe environment for women and minors, competitive Smash needs to go on hiatus.

I'm disgusted by the fact that so many of the game's top pros were condemning in public, while hiding their own assaults privately. No wonder Nintendo didn't want shit to do with the scene.

In a way, Covid is kind of a blessing as the TO's and community leaders figure out what's to be done going forward. with the way the US is going I'm not sure if local tournaments will even happen this year anymore. There's already a bunch of changes coming. They might not be the solution to everything but major changes are coming for the better:



And woof, that twilonger by Jisu and the statement by Mr. R really makes Zero be an actual scumbag. There's no coming back from this. The constant manipulation and lies just add to it. In some cases I could be like "yeah, he fucked up in a major way and should serve time probably, but not irredeemable" But with that kind of personality, you can't ever trust him again. Not even when he says he's a changed man a decade from now...
 

Merc_

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,592
I can see why Sky and Zero got along so well from their reactions to the truth coming to light.
 

DaToonie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,139
Sky is an incredibly performative person, who's apparently very emotionally abusive as well. I read Jisu's write up about him. I feel I now have a very clear image of the type of person he is.

And all the while, he just. Keeps. Tweeting.
It's been days, man.
 

Voke

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,336
I'll be sitting out on anything smash competitive stuff... forever now, this is why we can't have good things. The entire scene screams pedo now if you're an adult
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,472
It was one thing if this happened once at Sky William's place. But this being a theme, he can't play the "oh shit I'm really dumb and don't know what's happening at my place" card.

How many are we up to now?