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So ERA, what qualifies as a 'black story' to you? (aka: Is The Lion King a black story?)

CloudWolf

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,705
Yesterday, I was scrolling through Disney+ after watching the new Beyoncé visual album Black Is King and I noticed Disney+ added a category simply called 'Celebrating Black Stories'. Me being interested in what Disney films they would consider 'black', I scrolled through and noticed that The Lion King (the new one) is in there.

Now to me, this feels like total nonsense. The Lion King is a story written by a bunch of white men, directed by a white man and based on a story written by one of the most famous white storytellers. The main characters are animals, not people (even though they are clear analogues for people) and its themes aren't about black issues.

The only reasons I can even think of why The Lion King (and specifically this version of The Lion King) would be in there because it's set in Africa and features a lot of black actors. However, to me, that doesn't make The Lion King a 'black story'. Nothing about the story or the visuals are specifically 'black'. The movie doesn't deal with any racial issues (or when it does, it does so in the most tonedeaf way possible) and the characters aren't even black (nor white, they're animals). Then all you are left with is the setting, which isn't enough IMO. After all, if I would make a random movie set in Russia, that movie wouldn't suddenly be a 'slavic story'.

To me, a black story would be a story that specifically deals with black identity, history or themes and/or is at least made by black creatives. Framing The Lion King as a 'black story' feels to me like Disney is trying to claim something as inclusive while hardly doing the work necessary to make it work. But I'm not black nor am I American and my ideas about what may or may not be a 'black story' might be influenced due to this.

So I was wondering what the consensus about this was on ERA. Can a story that isn't primarily made by or for (or even about) black people be a 'black story'? Or am I right in thinking that framing The Lion King as such devaluates actual black stories and black storytellers?
 
Regulus Tera

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
The Lion King literally has a black lion who is portrayed as a dandy villain. I wouldn't call it a black story at all.
 
PaperSparrow

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,026
Pretty sure Hollywood sees any movie with more than three black people involved as a "black story".
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
But don't you know that "simba" is the swahili word for lion? Clearly a black story, duh.
/s

In all seriousness, no. You're not wrong. As Regulus Tera points out, the villain even is coded as black, as were the hyenas in the original cartoon (and Scar also was queer-coded in the cartoon), sooooo yeah.
 
Dyle

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,106
It's there because Beyonce's role in the movie is why they made Black is King, Black is King wouldn't exist if Beyonce hadn't been cast to play Nala in the film. It's not in that group because of any content in the movie though its presence does highlight the small amount of black content available on Disney +.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
27,176
As a more or less useful label for readers/viewers? Stories involving Black people and their lived experiences as expressed by Black People. Toni Morrison, August Wilson, James Baldwin etc. to just limit it to literature. But that completely leaves out stories by Black writers that don't explicitly deal with the Black experience such as N. K. Jemisin. I don't know if she considers her stories "Black". I've also seen it to exclude African writers. And it creates the weirdness with something like Lovecraft Country which very much deals with race, racism and features Black people as the protagonists but is written by a white man.
 
The Albatross

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,199
Ideally, I think a black story would be one written and produced primarily by black people, featuring primarily black actors, telling a story that is essential or unique to the black experience.

Realistically, black people had been blacklisted and blocked from leading positions in Hollywood for nearly the entire history of Hollywood. Systemic racism perpetuated the preference for scripts written by white people that would end up becoming films that would feature white actors that would tell stories that are particularly relevant to the white American experience. The power structure in Hollywood made it almost impossible for black people in media to get opportunity. Things have started to change and you're starting to get more representation in films, but it's slow and incremental. So a question is, do all of those things have to hit the mark for it to be a "Black story?" Can it be 2/3? If it's just 1/3 should it be included? I think you've seen this debate with literature, which is much more representative of "black stories" than film, and perhaps also with music. There's scores of black musicians whose songs were written and produced by white people, telling stories that weren't explicitly stories about black experiences but basically forced to tell "White stories" to sell their music to a white radio audience. If you have a category of streaming, do you exclude them? Do you include white musicians who co-opted black stories and experiences? What's the criteria? 3 out of 3... 2 out of 3... 1 out of 3? I don't think I know the answer, but more importantly, as a white person, it doesn't matter -- I shouldn't be the one arranging these playlists, a black person should be and it's their say, not mine.

When Disney+ makes a category 'Celebrating Black Stories,' it's going to be really hard for them to fill it with content because Disney does not have a lot of movies/shows in their vault that are written produced or primarily star black people. Hollywood itself does not have a lot of media that fits into that category, and Disney especially. I haven't seen the New Lion King and I don't know much about it. I don't think I'd disqualify a movie that's about animals, though, from being a black story (or anything else). Disney tells human stories but puts them into the context of animals, magic, fantasy, and so on. The story of the Lion King is a human story, the lessons are all human lessons -- as far as we know humans are the only animals that feel pride, jealousy, love, loss, redemption, revenge, resolution, and so on -- but Disney uses animals as an analog to humans. Same with Toy Story, Finding Nemo, Zootopia, The Little Mermaid, Cars, and any other Disney story that uses animals, fantastic creatures, or inanimate objects as analogs to humans... Those aren't animal stories, they're not nature documentaries, the animals and objects are personified and they become analogs to humans as a way of telling a human story in an approachable way for children. The Lion King is not an animal story, it's a human story.

Now...... whether The Lion King is a black story well, I think that's kind of a stretch. It takes place, presumably, in Africa and has some very whitewashed presentation of things that might be folklore from Africa, but that's about it. Though I haven't seen the new live action one, but just going on the original.
 
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Yasuke

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
It's probably categorized as black content because of the involvement of some very well known black cast members with the movie. Which makes sense to me.

I wouldn't read all that deeply into it beyond that.
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
I don't like the term black story. How about just a story about black people or with black people.
 
Huncho_Houdini

Huncho_Houdini

Member
Dec 31, 2017
7,125
I don't think I would categorize Lion King into that.

The new version certainly did have a lot of black voice actors but the themes in the movie are pretty generic overall. Also it's Hamlet in Lion form.
 
someday

someday

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
The Albatross said:
Ideally, I think a black story would be one written and produced primarily by black people, featuring primarily black actors, telling a story that is essential or unique to the black experience.

Realistically, black people had been blacklisted and blocked from leading positions in Hollywood for nearly the entire history of Hollywood. Systemic racism perpetuated the preference for scripts written by white people that would end up becoming films that would feature white actors that would tell stories that are particularly relevant to the white American experience. The power structure in Hollywood made it almost impossible for black people in media to get opportunity. Things have started to change and you're starting to get more representation in films, but it's slow and incremental. So a question is, do all of those things have to hit the mark for it to be a "Black story?" Can it be 2/3? If it's just 1/3 should it be included? I think you've seen this debate with literature, which is much more representative of "black stories" than film, and perhaps also with music. There's scores of black musicians whose songs were written and produced by white people, telling stories that weren't explicitly stories about black experiences but basically forced to tell "White stories" to sell their music to a white radio audience. If you have a category of streaming, do you exclude them? Do you include white musicians who co-opted black stories and experiences? What's the criteria? 3 out of 3... 2 out of 3... 1 out of 3? I don't think I know the answer, but more importantly, as a white person, it doesn't matter -- I shouldn't be the one arranging these playlists, a black person should be and it's their say, not mine.

When Disney+ makes a category 'Celebrating Black Stories,' it's going to be really hard for them to fill it with content because Disney does not have a lot of movies/shows in their vault that are written produced or primarily star black people. Hollywood itself does not have a lot of media that fits into that category, and Disney especially. I haven't seen the New Lion King and I don't know much about it. I don't think I'd disqualify a movie that's about animals, though, from being a black story (or anything else). Disney tells human stories but puts them into the context of animals, magic, fantasy, and so on. The story of the Lion King is a human story, the lessons are all human lessons -- as far as we know humans are the only animals that feel pride, jealousy, love, loss, redemption, revenge, resolution, and so on -- but Disney uses animals as an analog to humans. Same with Toy Story, Finding Nemo, Zootopia, The Little Mermaid, Cars, and any other Disney story that uses animals, fantastic creatures, or inanimate objects as analogs to humans... Those aren't animal stories, they're not nature documentaries, the animals and objects are personified and they become analogs to humans as a way of telling a human story in an approachable way for children. The Lion King is not an animal story, it's a human story.

Now...... whether The Lion King is a black story well, I think that's kind of a stretch. It takes place, presumably, in Africa and has some very whitewashed presentation of things that might be folklore from Africa, but that's about it. Though I haven't seen the new live action one, but just going on the original.
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It's all of this. I think specifically though, when Disney wanted to do a Black Story section, they really didn't have enough to fill it and added anything "Black adjacent." A movie with lots of famous Black folks voicing characters by default has to be included because we don't have enough other media to be discriminating.
 
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,017
A black story is a film about black characters, with black-centric issues, told primarily by black people.

It's not anything and everything that is tangentially about Africa like The Lion King.
 

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Nepenthe said:
A black story is a film about black characters, with black-centric issues, told primarily by black people.

It's not anything and everything that is tangentially about Africa like The Lion King.
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Can black creators create a story about black characters without it being about black centric issues? And if so, would that not still be a "black story"?
 
Jakenbakin

Jakenbakin

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Jun 17, 2018
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ultramooz said:
And also a shameless copy of Tezuka Osamu's manga and anime "Kimba the white Lion" which isn't a "black story" either.
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I know someone already replied, but here's the link, and no it isn't:



As for Lion King being a "black story", I don't think so. There's nothing about black identity in it. It's just as relatable to white people who would be up in arms if it had any aspects of black culture, I'm sure. There's no racist counter cultural resistance to the Lion King from white people (I think?), which seems to happen with any black media -.-
 
AGoodODST

AGoodODST

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,482
ultramooz said:
And also a shameless copy of Tezuka Osamu's manga and anime "Kimba the white Lion" which isn't a "black story" either.
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No it isn't lol. Also I don't think it's appropriate to bring up Kimba in a thread about black stories considering the absolute blatant and disgusting racism on display in that show.

OT: I assume it's cause of the actors involved. That being said, I would agree with others and say a black story is one that deals with black issues and identity and written produced by the community.

I certainly don't think The Lion King when I think that.
 
Sunster

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,061
call me out for playing it safe but i'm gonna go ahead and say the story about animals is NOT a Black story....
 
Platy

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,811
Brazil
Serious question: Is Black Dynamite a black story ?

It is made by black people, it stars almost only black people ... but ... lets say those stories are not exactly .... regular black stories xD
 
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,017
Yaboosh said:
Can black creators create a story about black characters without it being about black centric issues? And if so, would that not still be a "black story"?
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Yes, they can, and not necessarily. For example, a magical girl series that stars black women is not necessarily a black story just because black women are the main protagonists. Just like black people are not only defined by their blackness, and can have other interests and aptitudes that mark them as fully-fledged human beings, blackness can freely exist in media without it actually being a narrative theme; subsequently, that means it's okay for non-black people to engage in our works the same way we do with white people's work (who, funnily enough, would never class their stuff as a "white story.") Our mere existence is not inherently a gateway, even though the nature of racial dynamics still means a non-black person might not get the hype or the finer details of a story starring black characters that a black audience would.
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,566
ISOM said:
I don't like the term black story. How about just a story about black people or with black people.
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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume you mean well, but the fact is that black people and white people fundementally face different challenges and experiences as a result of race alone and how it factors into modern society. The idea of being "colorblind" sounds good, and in an ideal world might actually be great, but we don't live in an ideal world and in reality it's used too often as a way to deny the unique struggles and challenges that people of color face due to their race. Beyond which, even if it weren't a matter of discrimination, black americans have a distinctly different culture to white americans in many ways (same for asian americans or latino americans) and these differences are something that should be accepted and embraced (So long as cultural values aren't causing some people harm anyways like transphobia in certain communities) and celebrated, not swept under the rug and homogenized
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,566
I don't think the fact that it's about animals would immediately discard it from being a "black story" since allegory is a common form of storytelling anyways. What disqualifies it is that it's a story by white people about subject matter that has literally nothing to do with the black experience in any way shape or form
 
Spring-Loaded

Spring-Loaded

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Oct 27, 2017
19,904
No, it definitely isn't. There isn't such a dearth of black movies that you'd even need to consider including it. Even some kind of direct parallel story about anthropomorphised animals would have to be real direct and made by black people imo. But Lion King doesn't even come close to that.

It does have a lot of similarities to the story of Sundiata Keita which probably inspired it aside from Hamlet inspiration. Let's get that animated movie made, and then we can talk about if it counts.
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
Aaronrules380 said:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume you mean well, but the fact is that black people and white people fundementally face different challenges and experiences as a result of race alone and how it factors into modern society. The idea of being "colorblind" sounds good, and in an ideal world might actually be great, but we don't live in an ideal world and in reality it's used too often as a way to deny the unique struggles and challenges that people of color face due to their race. Beyond which, even if it weren't a matter of discrimination, black americans have a distinctly different culture to white americans in many ways (same for asian americans or latino americans) and these differences are something that should be accepted and embraced (So long as cultural values aren't causing some people harm anyways like transphobia in certain communities) and celebrated, not swept under the rug and homogenized
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I'm black and that's what i prefer. I don't know how other people feel about it. Btw I have heard the term black story used negatively that's why I don't like it.
 
Sordid Plebeian

Sordid Plebeian

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Oct 26, 2017
17,448
Well for it to be specifically black it should deal with black identity. Also, isn't the Lion King just Hamlet or something?
 
Rag

Rag

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Oct 30, 2017
3,894
I was thinking along the same lines when I saw Will Smith's Enemy of the State in the 'black stories' section on some streaming site yesterday. It's not on me to say as a white guy, but it seemed like a stretch.
 
Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
94,085
here
Platy said:
Serious question: Is Black Dynamite a black story ?

It is made by black people, it stars almost only black people ... but ... lets say those stories are not exactly .... regular black stories xD
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I THREW THAT SHIT BEFORE I WALKED IN THE ROOM!
 
Mahonay

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,332
Pencils Vania
Films made my black people about the black experience.

Lion King would not qualify. That is an African wildlife story made by white people.


Do The Right Thing

Barbershop

Selma

Get Out

Those are black stories.
 
Jakisthe

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,654
ultramooz said:
And also a shameless copy of Tezuka Osamu's manga and anime "Kimba the white Lion" which isn't a "black story" either.
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No it's not.

Anyway, OP, I think it's pretty clear. It has to deal with the experiences of that group of people in particular, likely by folks who've experienced it themselves. Allegory exists, so I don't know if I'd say it *can't* feature animals, but then the parallels would have to be especially honed. Like you said though, what would make a slavic story? Surely not just location, and then a continuance like that for what might constitute a black film.
 
Mahonay

Mahonay

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Oct 25, 2017
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Pencils Vania
Platy said:
Serious question: Is Black Dynamite a black story ?

It is made by black people, it stars almost only black people ... but ... lets say those stories are not exactly .... regular black stories xD
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Lmao

It's Michael Jai White's and Scott Sanders' comedic take on blaxploitation films from the 70's. I'd say it qualifies.

Gives You Ooooooo
 
Platy

Platy

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Oct 25, 2017
27,811
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Mahonay said:
Lmao

It's Michael J White's and Scott Sanders' comedic take on blaxploitation films from the 70's. I'd say it qualifies.
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I think I should have said that as someone from South America I have a very distant relationship with blaxpoitation movies so I am not familiar with the impact and reactionthey had at the time
 
Mahonay

Mahonay

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Oct 25, 2017
33,332
Pencils Vania
Platy said:
I think I should have said that as someone from South America I have a very distant relationship with blaxpoitation movies so I am not familiar with the impact and reactionthey had at the time
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Totally understandable. Black Dynamite is just ridiculous as fuck and I laugh every time I think about it. I need to rewatch it, been a while.
 
samoyed

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
It is not. I can only imagine they categorized it because of James Earl Jones and some of the other Black voices.

The themes are also white as fuck.

samoyed said:
The ultimate message of the Lion King is pretty conservative (some people are born to rule and getting in their way leads to bad things) but Hakuna Matata resonated the most because it's the ideology closest to most liberal cultural mindsets (do what makes you happy so long as it doesn't infringe on another being's life, say fuck you to rules).
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Even the liberal bits are still very white liberal (powerful scion goes through adolescence ducking responsibility and generally partying with friends, before returning home to assume the family business).
 
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