So those Goblins in Harry Potter are antisemitic right?

[Reym]

And I'll still say Jar Jar Binks is even worse because he's a main character and is basically a walking minstrel show. Just take a minute to remember how he talks. The only way George could have made it worse is if he was eating space fried chicken and watermelon and calling the Jedi Massa... which he comes close to doing anyway.

Click to shrink...

This is always an interesting thing to me because it seemed fairly obvious to me straight from the get-go that the intention of Jar-Jar Binks was to be Goofy. Like, the Disney character. Everything about his design, everything about his mannerisms, everything about his humor was just a poorly-done copy of Goofy with awful speech tacked on top. (I believe this has even been confirmed, but I can't remember where I read it, so take that with a grain of salt.)

And I'm sure people will take this as me defending Jar-Jar, but it's quite the opposite. It just highlights how deep this goes. The truth is nearly every old-time cartoon character is based on vaudeville and minstrel shows because those things were popular then. Felix the Cat, Bimbo the Dog, Mickey Mouse, fucking Bosko (Warner's was "smart" to drop that trash fire), and of course Goofy were all born out of racist stereotypes. You can make the argument that Goofy isn't so much that anymore, but when someone (who let's be real, doesn't mind being gross - see Watto) takes him and makes a bad copy all those negative aspects get brought to the surface and it becomes obvious to everyone.

...I'm not sure I have a point in all this, it's just something I find endlessly fascinating as an animation fan, and it's shocking to me that it doesn't come up every time Jar-Jar is mentioned...and also other times.

 

[HStallion]

If through cultural osmosis someone replicates a racist caricature divorced from the original form I think that's different than actively creating one and should be treated as such on the creator's side (not the character's necessarily). There's a different malice and reason behind 'I will create a character based on the bankers in the movies I watched as a kid' and 'I will create a character who looks like a Jew because he is a banker.' Subconscious racism is still racism, and still powerful and problematic but I think it does a disservice to present it in the way it often is. People are dumb and often don't notice things (I didn't notice the problem with Watto's design until recently and I'm Jewish myself), there's a difference in 'this character is problematic let's point it out so people notice and do not continue making characters in this vein' and 'this creator is a racist shithead.'

Obviously if the creator turns out to be a racist shithead feel free to dog pile when they make a shitty apology.

Click to shrink...

Being a purposefully evil prick is not the only way to be a racist and it's foolish to think otherwise.

 

[BLEEN]

more like a nuisance that might eat your baby

Click to shrink...

Yes yes, but a mere nuisance! My baby was just brunch, that's all lol
This got a laugh out of me.

 

[Messofanego]

Your liberal queen, folks.

Oh let not forget the one Irish youngfella that like to blow things up. Nothing wrong with that. Just havin' a laff mate, havin' a lafff...

Click to shrink...

Don't forget Harry Potter Ireland is ruled by the British. JK Rowling been pissing off the Irish too along with the Jewish, Asians, ever since the beginning.

Great Britain

Great Britain is a large European island, located to the northwest of the main continent. The island consists of England, Scotland and Wales, which, along with Northern Ireland, make up one sovereign state, the United Kingdom. The island is administrated by the Prime Minister of the United...

harrypotter.fandom.com

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 8 (The Quidditch World Cup) - The Bulgarian National Quidditch team was represented by the Bulgarian Minister for Magic, while the Irish National Quidditch team was represented by Cornelius Fudge of the British Ministry of Magic. In addition, the British and Irish Quidditch League, which falls under the authority of the Department of Magical Games and Sports of the British Ministry of Magic, has both a team from Ballycastle, Northern Ireland and a team from Kenmare, Republic of Ireland. This suggests that the whole of Ireland may be a single political entity that falls under the jurisdiction of the British Ministry of Magic in the wizarding world.​

 

[Watchtower]

Yeah this is what I was wondering, which came first in a sense. Goblin folklore, or stereotyping Jewish people with these goblin-like features.

Click to shrink...

I had actually looked into it previously, when the "are orcs racist" thread was up and the subject of goblins/Ferengi as Jewish stereotypes came up. It's hard to tell which is necessarily older (because people have been persecuting Jews for a long-ass time) but there's enough evidence to at least infer that the two (goblins depicted as money-grubbing and Jews being stereotyped as money-grubbing) developed independently of each other.

I do wanna highlight the following:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

The top responses paint a line of a particular Cornish myth having a association between goblins and Jews ("knockers", a race of goblin miners, were said to be the ghosts of Jews), this myth being really popular by virtue of Cornish myths being highly circulated, and writers using this myth to attribute further Jewish stereotypes to goblins. So it's to a very slight degree recursive and had been grandfathered in even by Tolkien's time.

 

[Tavernade]

Worf is Jewish? I need a link to that

Click to shrink...

Ok, so I did research and I take back my defense of the Ferengi. This is a good article.

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/164916/

EDIT: Take this with at least a 'slight' grain of salt as further Googling doesn't reveal any additional sources to the claims here, but also I'm getting tired so I'm gonna stop looking.

 

[Flame Flamey]

What was Lucas thinking with Watto by the way? And then he doubled down in AOTC by giving him the hat

 

[TheIlliterati]

Yup. Tolkien isn't exempt from this either.

Whens the last time you saw a black elf? In classic fantasy the good guys are all white or whiteish. Even elves and dwarves.

Orcs/Trolls/Goblins/ etc are all deformed and darker.

Click to shrink...

So, side point but I thought it would be interesting for people reading the thread: I just wanted to piggyback on your question about a lack black elves to point out and highlight the lack of racism or sexism in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. One of the elder races in the series is the Tiste Andii, and they are sort of elf analogues which have onyx skin(their sister races the Edur and Liosan have gray and pale skin respectively, yet all born of darkness(which doesn't mean "evil" as in most fantasy)). Their main representative in the books(Anomander Rake) is extremely honorable and multi faceted, just as the other races have many facets to them as well. It is not "good" or "evil" based on skin colors, their issues are deeper.

So too the other human/elder races in the series are incredibly diverse. Many, many of the main human viewpoints from heroes to villains(although most characters are not easily put in either category) are "Dal Honese" which have typical African like skin and hair descriptions(Quick Ben, Kalam, Iskaral Pust, Shadowthrone, etc).
This isn't to even really cover the lack of sexism in the series either, but the author has mentioned in interviews that he purposely intended to create a world where sexism doesn't exist, and it is manifest in the many female characters that are incredibly different in motivations, morality and power levels.
All to say that I recommend it highly for this and many other reasons.

 

[Tavernade]

Being a purposefully evil prick is not the only way to be a racist and it's foolish to think otherwise.

Click to shrink...

There's a vast difference between someone actively adding racist imagery they believe in to something and someone passively adding racist imagery through cultural osmosis, which I thought was the discussion being had here. Either creators hate the Jews and should be vilified or these stereotypes are so ingrained in the culture they pop up without people noticing. It'll obviously vary instance to instance. It does the world no good to conflate them.

(Obviously it should be called out regardless to stop the spread)

 

[Budi]

I had actually looked into it previously, when the "are orcs racist" thread was up and the subject of goblins/Ferengi as Jewish stereotypes came up. It's hard to tell which is necessarily older (because people have been persecuting Jews for a long-ass time) but there's enough evidence to at least infer that the two (goblins depicted as money-grubbing and Jews being stereotyped as money-grubbing) developed independently of each other.

I do wanna highlight the following:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

The top responses paint a line of a particular Cornish myth having a association between goblins and Jews ("knockers", a race of goblin miners, were said to be the ghosts of Jews), this myth being really popular by virtue of Cornish myths being highly circulated, and writers using this myth to attribute further Jewish stereotypes to goblins. So it's to a very slight degree recursive and had been grandfathered in even by Tolkien's time.

Click to shrink...

Thanks a lot for the link and the info. And of course there's a lot of creatures in different cultures that resemble a goblin or are called as such, dictionary in my own language offers me 5 different creatures when I looked it up. None of them pair with the antisemitic stereotypes though, which is probably a good thing. But even Scandinavian "christmas elves" have been translated to goblins before. Rowling being british, that Cornish myth influence seems likely.

 

[Untzillatx]

I have repeatly agreed with the premise of the thread, the only reason i didnt comment on it initially was precisely because i agree with it, the initial thread is talking explicity about Harry potters goblins, not old folklore at large, which is what YOU borught into the discussion, pivoting it away from the problematic nature of goblins as depicted by the movies and posibly the books of Harry potter and old Nazi propaganda, what the hell is your problem?

This is what you responded initially



to this idea



Are you actually doubling down that on OLD EUROPEAN FOLKLORE ideas of GOBLINS is the basis of them being portrayed as greedy bankers that hoard money in harry potter that resemble nazi propaganda in relation to jews? Truly?

Click to shrink...

They are being deliberately obtuse, resorting to personal attacks to you instead of defending their original assertion ("folklore comes from racist stereotypes). I'd ignore them.

EDIT.- And then they ban Austriacus instead while the user resorting to personal attacks and offering no rebuttal to any arguments is all o.k. I suppose.

 

[BLEEN]

I have repeatly agreed with the premise of the thread, the only reason i didnt comment on it initially was precisely because i agree with it, the initial thread is talking explicity about Harry potters goblins, not old folklore at large, which is what YOU borught into the discussion, pivoting it away from the problematic nature of goblins as depicted by the movies and posibly the books of Harry potter and old Nazi propaganda, what the hell is your problem?

This is what you responded initially



to this idea



Are you actually doubling down that on OLD EUROPEAN FOLKLORE ideas of GOBLINS is the basis of them being portrayed as greedy bankers that hoard money in harry potter that resemble nazi propaganda in relation to jews? Truly?

Click to shrink...

Report and move on is usually the best decision. He resorted to, imo, pretty vulgar personal attacks. Not one to report as most everyone should get a say but when it gets to their last post, it's not worth the back and forth anymore. Any convo that can be had would just be devoid of substance at that point.

 

[HStallion]

There's a vast difference between someone actively adding racist imagery they believe in to something and someone passively adding racist imagery through cultural osmosis, which I thought was the discussion being had here. Either creators hate the Jews and should be vilified or these stereotypes are so ingrained in the culture they pop up without people noticing. It'll obviously vary instance to instance. It does the world no good to conflate them.

(Obviously it should be called out regardless to stop the spread)

Click to shrink...

And considering how wide spread the use of incredibly on the nose stereotypes are across several of his films I don't think it's at all fair to just pass the buck because of cultural osmosis.

 

[Tavernade]

And considering how wide spread the use of incredibly on the nose stereotypes are across several of his films I don't think it's at all fair to just pass the buck because of cultural osmosis.

Click to shrink...

Out of curiosity, what other films? He's only directed 6. Produced a ton more, obviously. Plus Clone Wars and Young Indiana Jones.

I know the problems with Temple of Doom.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I apologize, this was a poorly thought out post.

The history of goblins in storytelling and their association with antisemitism honestly had never occured to me. Now that I've read up a bit on it I can understand how Rowling's depiction in her stories and in the films would be deemed insensitive.

Click to shrink...

It was just funny because your post basically said "How could a race of greedy bankers be anti-semitic?" when greedy banker is pretty much the #1 anti-semitic trope on Earth. It made it sound like you were being sarcastic or were from Mars.

 

[Tedesco!]

I'm curious if you shared your thoughts with your son? Its always a challenge when you do decide or not decide let your children know about the origins of some of these things.

Click to shrink...

I have not. He's 10, and doesn't need to concern himself with things like this just yet.

 

[Yukari]

I have a Thai friend who swears Cho Chang in Harry Potter was intended to be of Thai origin and her country has been swindled of having been represented in this character on screen and in popular thought. The name is a Thai letter and is popular in naming things like the island Koh Chang and Chang beer.

Click to shrink...

Really? this is new to me because every Thai harry potter knows that Cho is British Chinese.

 

[hwarang]

its been so long since I had last seen the movies. Damn thats so blatant.