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Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,480
Yeah, what Atomic Heart is doing pales in comparison.

Doesn't quite have the same context though, does it? Whether it works or doesn't, Bioshock Infinite's goal is to get players to confront America's racist past (successful or not). That isn't the case with Atomic Heart, quite the opposite as it appears to pay homage to a racist cartoon without any particular goal.
 

Kindekuma

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,734
I'm not defending the game-- but I do have a legitimate question: The game is set in like an alternate 1950s, right? Plenty of Disney movies and cartoons like Tom and Jerry have extremely racist caricatures. It's just as harmful then as it is now. And that is just from North America. Would removing it and not acknowledging this kind of content existed then be better, or leaving it in and acknowledging the issues to learn and move on from be better?
 

LogN-

Member
Oct 30, 2017
314
I think what's more frustrating than the disgusting people who made this awful game is that they didn't even have to recruit an army of defenders. Putting the racist cartoon in your game is a choice.

I'm not going to argue with you, I merely provided context. If you can't see beyond that, that's your choice.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,954
I would say not. So far, it doesn't seem *quite* as clever, but it is definitely in the vein of a "utopia gone wrong" story.

I haven't played the game but the RPS review notes that it does contain a dystopian message to some extent but also places the blame there at the feet of various individuals in power for destroying a potential utopia rather than something more critical that looks at wider systemic causes, showing that dystopia is really the natural end result.

Eg in Bioshock's case Andrew Ryan is the main driver but it's the Objectivist philosophy he subscribes to that inherently and inevitably leads Rapture to ruin.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,568
The latter, Nu Pogodi was (and still is) very popular in Soviet Russia. And TV has all the episodes, but the tweet from OP decided to include 0.5 seconds of one of 22 episodes to show off how racist the game is. Which is reaching... like a lot of reaching.
Ah, so it's window dressing for the time period. That makes sense. Should they have edited out that part of the episode, probably, but I don't think it's as controversial as this thread wants it to be. If anything, it inadvertently shows how rotten the utopia/(and Soviet society, and anywhere else that would have had such cartoons) actually was for the time.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,955
From what I've seen just reading this thread, it's a small clip from a museum episode of a cartoon in which the whole series is included in the game and lasts for under a second.

I dunno if any more racist or offensive things are shown in that cartoon or in other episodes but it really seems the same as a racist depiction by Bugs Bunny in an old Looney Tunes cartoon.

It should probably be removed or edited (if it really is just such a tiny shot from a single episode) and nothing would be lost or changed. It seems to me the devs added the whole cartoon series so likely they just added them all and didn't go through each one to remove any offensive material.

I'm sure there are a lot of other bad things in the game that are shitty even in context, but the context here I feel is important too. Unless the cartoon as a whole is racist and it's not just a second of footage from a single episode. I've not seen the cartoon and don't want to watch it anyway. Like, there are plenty of legit reasons to not like the game (such at the developer/publishers relations to Russian Government).
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
This is from a super old Soviet cartoon "Nu Pogodi", all 22 episodes of which are in the game

This picture appears in one of the episodes (it takes place in a museum) for 0.5 seconds, as you can see here at 5:50

This post should probably go into the OP. Now that the person who posted the original tweet has deleted it.

It would stem a lot of people coming in here and commenting without actually seeing what they are complaining about first.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,250
I didn't really know anything about this game aside from hearing the name lately on Era, but this sounds like an easy skip. Even without the cartoon and whatever questionable excuse one could make about "it was the time period", the misogyny on display is reason enough to avoid.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,888
Ah yes. The Soviet Union. Well known utopia.

Well, the setting for Atomic Heart is very similar to the Bioshock games (i.e. a experimental, technologically advanced, isolated community that exists in an alternate history). What all of these games have in common is that the veneer of utopia is paper thin and its actually all kinds of fucked up.
 
Jan 23, 2022
1,603
I'm not liking it if its just for aesthetics. Maybe if it was satirical, but not just adding it because you wanted something from the era.
 

Wanderer5

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,990
Somewhere.
Yeah that's looks like a cartoon from that era alright.

Also shitty to see some here trying to give excuses for the fridge scene. I don't see how it is meant to be "terrifying," with it being so over the top. It comes out being so juvenile about sexual assault (and course men being rape as funny trope is tiring as hell).
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,888
BioShock Infinite couldn't even get it right because they portrayed the oppressed as being just as bad as their oppressors because this is a bad writer's idea of what grey morality is.

From what (admittedly little) that I have seen, Atomic Heart is written just as shitty.

There is ample evidence in the real world of a "revolutionary group" that ends up doing, at the very least, the same bad stuff as the people they overthrew (or worse). It doesn't happen in all cases, but it does happen when your desire for justice turns into a desire for vengeance.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
Yeah that's looks like a cartoon from that era alright.

Also shitty to see some here trying to give excuses for the fridge scene. I don't see how it is meant to be "terrifying," with it being so over the top. It comes out being so juvenile about sexual assault (and course men being rape as funny trope is tiring as hell).
Yeah, the fridge sucks. Even literally every character in the game hates the thing, thankfully it seems like it's only there for the first few hours of the game.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,180
This was posted in a different thread. It's the dialogue that is voice acted. It's NSFW if you can't listen to it now.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE3Pg29D06U&ab_channel=NaughtyGaming

You know I don't even care about the horny robot, what bothers me is the wooden-but-profanity-laden dialogue from the protagonist. I feel like it's a European thing - learning English mostly from edgy media and thinking everyone talks like that and it's normal. I'm not clutching my pearls at it, but it's like... why does he talk like that? Who talks like that? I just think of angry Counter-Strike players with heavy accents calling me bro.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,367
There is ample evidence in the real world of a "revolutionary group" that ends up doing, at the very least, the same bad stuff as the people they overthrew (or worse). It doesn't happen in all cases, but it does happen when your desire for justice turns into a desire for vengeance.

There is absolutely nuance you can convey in a story like that.

BioShock Infinite didn't do it well.
 

VCFL

Member
Jan 24, 2018
2,944
Because I'm so out of the loop, what exactly is this game? What's it about, how does it play, etc?
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
You know I don't even care about the horny robot, what bothers me is the wooden-but-profanity-laden dialogue from the protagonist. I feel like it's a European thing - learning English mostly from edgy media and thinking everyone talks like that and it's normal. I'm not clutching my pearls at it, but it's like... why does he talk like that? Who talks like that? I just think of angry Counter-Strike players with heavy accents calling me bro.
This is my first time hearing the protagonist speak in English, and yeah that's awful. He's a fair bit better in Russian.
Because I'm so out of the loop, what exactly is this game? What's it about, how does it play, etc?
Bioshock but set in 1950s Soviet Russia.
 

spool

Member
Oct 27, 2017
773
Well, the setting for Atomic Heart is very similar to the Bioshock games (i.e. a experimental, technologically advanced, isolated community that exists in an alternate history). What all of these games have in common is that the veneer of utopia is paper thin and its actually all kinds of fucked up.
Ah, so Atomic Heart is a scathing critique of the Soviet Union and its underpinning ideas then?
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,480
I'm not defending the game-- but I do have a legitimate question: The game is set in like an alternate 1950s, right? Plenty of Disney movies and cartoons like Tom and Jerry have extremely racist caricatures. It's just as harmful then as it is now. And that is just from North America. Would removing it and not acknowledging this kind of content existed then be better, or leaving it in and acknowledging the issues to learn and move on from be better?

I think if you're going to include it, it has to be acknowledged as an issue. If it's presented without commentary it feels like it's just 'hey look at this cool retro thing in our video game'.

Maybe that is the context though, I don't really understand the games story from the outside looking in, and I'll never play it either.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,888
I haven't played the game but the RPS review notes that it does contain a dystopian message to some extent but also places the blame there at the feet of various individuals in power for destroying a potential utopia rather than something more critical that looks at wider systemic causes, showing that dystopia is really the natural end result.

Eg in Bioshock's case Andrew Ryan is the main driver but it's the Objectivist philosophy he subscribes to that inherently and inevitably leads Rapture to ruin.

Like I said, I don't think they're being nearly as clever about it. But then again, I'm still pretty early on. There is a bit of the typical "technology run amok" trope going on here in the sense that it is not being advanced responsibly and/or has major potential explotations. Its not a particularly unique take, but it is there, nonetheless. I don't expect the game to get particularly deep about it, though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
772
Doesn't quite have the same context though, does it? Whether it works or doesn't, Bioshock Infinite's goal is to get players to confront America's racist past (successful or not). That isn't the case with Atomic Heart, quite the opposite as it appears to pay homage to a racist cartoon without any particular goal.
Infinite was hella overt with America being racist in the past but destroys any meaningful message once they go into "what if the vox populi get in power" therefor both sides can be just as bad.

I haven't played Atomic hearts yet but when the context is this is a Soviet Union based alternative timeline where technology advances but the roots of the Soviet Union remain I feel like that they have to remind people that racist shit existed in its past so people don't think it's a romanticized version of the Soviet Union. Paying homage and showing it existed are two different things.
 

AvianAviator

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Jun 23, 2021
6,368
Because I'm so out of the loop, what exactly is this game? What's it about, how does it play, etc?
Here's the review thread:

www.resetera.com

Atomic Heart Review Thread

OpenCritic - 74 Metacritic - 75 Atomic Heart PS5 Review 6/10 https://www.pushsquare.com/reviews/ps5/atomic-heart Powerup Gaming https://powerup-gaming.com/2023/02/21/atomic-heart-review-pc-from-russia-with/ Review in Progress We got this covered 4 / 5 Stars...
 

Deleted member 3038

Oct 25, 2017
3,569
You know I don't even care about the horny robot, what bothers me is the wooden-but-profanity-laden dialogue from the protagonist. I feel like it's a European thing - learning English mostly from edgy media and thinking everyone talks like that and it's normal. I'm not clutching my pearls at it, but it's like... why does he talk like that? Who talks like that? I just think of angry Counter-Strike players with heavy accents calling me bro.

Just like back in the Forspoken thread mentioning this exact criticism, I have 0 clue what people are on about. Everyone I know drops F-Bombs like crazy and in that situation I would do the exact same thing. Like what is the protag supposed to say when he gets grabbed "Oh Good Heavens this surely is a predicament!"
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,173
Belgium
Ugh. Of course there is. There's no excuse not editing that out. Regardless if it's old. Idiots. What's Microsoft's process for approving content?

It's surprising how in E Europe this stuff is still incredibly prevalent. Too often I go to visit family in Poland, they flick on the TV and someone's doing blackface on a singing contest.
It's not something exclusively Eastern European. The Netherlands has an entire holiday revolving around blackface. It's a widespread problem in many European countries still.
 

VCFL

Member
Jan 24, 2018
2,944
Here's the review thread:

www.resetera.com

Atomic Heart Review Thread

OpenCritic - 74 Metacritic - 75 Atomic Heart PS5 Review 6/10 https://www.pushsquare.com/reviews/ps5/atomic-heart Powerup Gaming https://powerup-gaming.com/2023/02/21/atomic-heart-review-pc-from-russia-with/ Review in Progress We got this covered 4 / 5 Stars...

No, this is the debut game of a Russian studio called Mundfish.

No, but it plays like a mish mash of Bioshock, Dying Light and Far Cry.
Thank you folks!
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,373
With no commentary in game to go along with it, I would not give the benefit of the doubt to the developers.

That being said, some ideas raised like "editing it out" are bad and in a way actually works as propaganda. It ends up washing away historic racism and allows for cultures and countries to control their image of how racist they were, so it's important that if history is shown in media that it shows accurate history instead of edited history that hides the bad things people did. Either don't have it at all, or show it with the bad (ideally in a context that doesn't seem like they support the bad things... which is what's up in the air especially given the other edgelord stuff in the game).

When Disney distributes and profits off of rereleases of movies that have blackface, but with the blackface edited out, it lets them gaslight about their history while raking in the profits from it, and can have cultural ramifications of bringing up new generations of people who have no idea that the media their watching was built with blatant racism and that our parents/grandparents, the politicians we choose from, the old men running media conglomerates, etc., were totally okay with it.
 
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Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,904
This was posted in a different thread. It's the dialogue that is voice acted. It's NSFW if you can't listen to it now.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE3Pg29D06U&ab_channel=NaughtyGaming


Hmmm, so when this game has that kind of dialogue it's mostly glossed over and not really discussed from reviewers. But when a black female protagonist (Forspoken) swears a lot and has "cringe" dialogue then it's amounts to being an awful game and calling the character "unlikable".

Yeah, fuck this game. I don't care about the context, it would've taken a few moments to erase that shit out of the game. I'll bet some of the reviews are probably touting it for being edgy and non-PC with an innuendo spouting robot as well as including that racist shit.
 

Bish_Bosch

Member
Apr 30, 2018
1,036
It's surprising how in E Europe this stuff is still incredibly prevalent. Too often I go to visit family in Poland, they flick on the TV and someone's doing blackface on a singing contest.

To be fair attitudes on people of African descent vary wildly I'm Eastern Europe it isn't a monolith. It is genuinely awful in the former Eastern Bloc by and large but attitudes are surprisingly positive in the Balkans. Treating all of Eastern Europe as a monolith in terms of political attitudes isn't really fair.
 

RpgN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,552
The Netherlands
With no commentary in game to go along with it, I would not give the benefit of the doubt to the developers.

That being said, some ideas raised like "editing it out" are bad and in a way actually works as propaganda. It ends up washing away historic racism and allows for cultures and countries to control their image of how racist they were, so it's important that if history is shown in media that it shows accurate history instead of edited history that hides the bad things people did. Either don't have it at all, or show it with the bad (ideally in a context that doesn't seem like they support the bad things... which is what's up in the air especially given the other edgelord stuff in the game).

When Disney distributes and profits off of rereleases of movies that have blackface, but with the blackface edited out, it lets them gaslight about their history while raking in the profits from it, and can have cultural ramifications of bringing up new generations of people who have no idea that the media their watching was built with blatant racism and that our parents/grandparents, the politicians we choose from, the old men running media conglomerates, etc., were totally okay with it.

Very interesting perspective. It sounds logical.

Then perhaps putting a disclaimer would be better?

Hmmm, so when this game has that kind of dialogue it's mostly glossed over and not really discussed from reviewers. But when a black female protagonist (Forspoken) swears a lot and has "cringe" dialogue then it's amounts to being an awful game and calling the character "unlikable".

Yeah, fuck this game. I don't care about the context, it would've taken a few moments to erase that shit out of the game. I'll bet some of the reviews are probably touting it for being edgy and non-PC with an innuendo spouting robot as well as including that racist shit.

Agreed. I don't really have a problem with Frey based on the demo, trailers and twitter videos I saw. I'm looking forward to buying that game when it gets cheaper.

It always annoys me when shit like this is completely ignored. I'm very glad there are gamers who share this online. I might have genuinely bought Atomic Heart in the future if I didn't know about such elements.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,934
I only played a couple hours so I don't think I got to the point with the cartoon. Can anyone say whether the context it's shown in is decent or poorly handled?

Just like back in the Forspoken thread mentioning this exact criticism, I have 0 clue what people are on about. Everyone I know drops F-Bombs like crazy and in that situation I would do the exact same thing. Like what is the protag supposed to say when he gets grabbed "Oh Good Heavens this surely is a predicament!"
Maybe the Russian voice acting is less wooden (hard not to be) but it's the goofy tone that makes it weird. Like his voice and his words don't match. I'm guessing the game was originally written in Russian and certain bits don't translate well.
 

cvbas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,172
Brazil
With no commentary in game to go along with it, I would not give the benefit of the doubt to the developers.

That being said, some ideas raised like "editing it out" are bad and in a way actually works as propaganda. It ends up washing away historic racism and allows for cultures and countries to control their image of how racist they were, so it's important that if history is shown in media that it shows accurate history instead of edited history that hides the bad things people did. Either don't have it at all, or show it with the bad (ideally in a context that doesn't seem like they support the bad things... which is what's up in the air especially given the other edgelord stuff in the game).

When Disney distributes and profits off of rereleases of movies that have blackface, but with the blackface edited out, it lets them gaslight about their history while raking in the profits from it, and can have cultural ramifications of bringing up new generations of people who have no idea that the media their watching was built with blatant racism and that our parents/grandparents, the politicians we choose from, the old men running media conglomerates, etc., were totally okay with it.
I get what you're saying and I generally agree, but I think there's a big difference between re-releasing movies pretending they were never racist and just editing out a 1-second scene in a cartoon most people will never even see in-game. I don't think the latter is whitewashing, it's just a harmless edit to remove some offensive stuff that's not relevant at all to the rest of the cartoon/game.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,399


Assuming these aren't vast mischaracterizations, this dev can rot. And I'll just add that the thought clearly put into these secondary elements means the way the cartoon is included feels that much less likely to be accidental/incidental. This stuff is a specific editorial choice.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,402
With no commentary in game to go along with it, I would not give the benefit of the doubt to the developers.

That being said, some ideas raised like "editing it out" are bad and in a way actually works as propaganda. It ends up washing away historic racism and allows for cultures and countries to control their image of how racist they were, so it's important that if history is shown in media that it shows accurate history instead of edited history that hides the bad things people did. Either don't have it at all, or show it with the bad (ideally in a context that doesn't seem like they support the bad things...).

The cartoons seem like they're just supposed to be background color, a fun treat if you know them. For as little time as they're in the game, only as something running on the tv in the save points, I don't believe there's any deeper meaning behind them. It's just supposed to make the world looked lived-in.

-edit- The geraniums are a bit of a reach but the blue/yellow can with swine meat? Yeah, no. That's some bullshit right there.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,180
Just like back in the Forspoken thread mentioning this exact criticism, I have 0 clue what people are on about. Everyone I know drops F-Bombs like crazy and in that situation I would do the exact same thing. Like what is the protag supposed to say when he gets grabbed "Oh Good Heavens this surely is a predicament!"
I think when you're in the kind of situations gaming protagonists are in you're less likely to be like "HOLY FUCK WHAT THE FUCK" at everything after a while. Even just like "oh shit!" and maybe even a "what the fuck!" and end it at that is better than "holy fuck fuck me what the fuck let me go you fucking bitch" or whatever. Just starts to feel like edgy writer being edgy.
 

zerosnake99

Member
Oct 25, 2018
952
This is from a super old Soviet cartoon "Nu Pogodi", all 22 episodes of which are in the game

This picture appears in one of the episodes (it takes place in a museum) for 0.5 seconds, as you can see here at 5:50
Huh... Thank you for the context.

Edit: I think that games should be allowed to have representations of racism and other abhorrent things, just like other forms of media. I think there needs to be a clear distinction of what is in world and what is developer injected views.
 

NexusCell

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
855
Hmmm, so when this game has that kind of dialogue it's mostly glossed over and not really discussed from reviewers. But when a black female protagonist (Forspoken) swears a lot and has "cringe" dialogue then it's amounts to being an awful game and calling the character "unlikable".

Yeah, fuck this game. I don't care about the context, it would've taken a few moments to erase that shit out of the game. I'll bet some of the reviews are probably touting it for being edgy and non-PC with an innuendo spouting robot as well as including that racist shit.
Have you read the reviews? Near all of them universally say the writing and main character are awful. Some of them even explicitly say its worse then Forspoken. The only reason it isn't being talked about as much is because the developers were smart enough to not feature the main character talking a ton in their advertisements.
 
Feb 15, 2023
4,313
To be fair attitudes on people of African descent vary wildly I'm Eastern Europe it isn't a monolith. It is genuinely awful in the former Eastern Bloc by and large but attitudes are surprisingly positive in the Balkans. Treating all of Eastern Europe as a monolith in terms of political attitudes isn't really fair.

Fair, I should've just iterated is merely my experience in Poland. Of course not all Polish people are racist either but the fact the media there consistently does stuff like this is infuriating.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,971
Hmmm, so when this game has that kind of dialogue it's mostly glossed over and not really discussed from reviewers. But when a black female protagonist (Forspoken) swears a lot and has "cringe" dialogue then it's amounts to being an awful game and calling the character "unlikable".

Yeah, fuck this game. I don't care about the context, it would've taken a few moments to erase that shit out of the game. I'll bet some of the reviews are probably touting it for being edgy and non-PC with an innuendo spouting robot as well as including that racist shit.
A lot of reviewers literally have been criticizing Atomic Heart for its writing though.

I didn't follow the reviews for Forspoken, but it was mostly criticized specifically for this trailer. A lot of people have acknowledged that in-game, the dialogue isn't nearly as bad. But this isn't like people took dialogue with no context from the game and criticized it, this is literally dialogue they wrote for the narration of this trailer:

View: https://twitter.com/Forspoken/status/1556679378892898306?s=20
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,884
Look forward to seeing how people will possibly defend this. (And virtue signal about it in the process.)
You and I must have read very different threads here.

Just like with the (now deleted) tweet in the OP this looks awful on its face, but just like with the (now deleted) tweet in the OP we should wait a few hours to see if there's additional context beyond a single tweet.
 

Bish_Bosch

Member
Apr 30, 2018
1,036
Fair, I should've just iterated is merely my experience in Poland. Of course not all Polish people are racist either but the fact the media there consistently does stuff like this is infuriating.
Oh for sure. Of course racism exists everywhere it's just worth pointing out its not uniform in character between wildly different countries.
 

zerosnake99

Member
Oct 25, 2018
952
Tweet deleted. Does anyone have a screenshot for some context?
The tweet itself takes the game out of context. It uses real world material from the Soviet Union. Another user pointed this out.

Edit:...that can reference though? That might be harder to explain. I don't know.

Edit 2: Never mind, people are just lying about things now. That's why you don't believe everything you see on the internet.
 
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