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Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 37 18.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 17 8.3%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 7 3.4%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 7 3.4%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 76 36.9%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 51 24.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 11 5.3%

  • Total voters
    206

M-M

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
You want me to recycle my half eaten hamburger?



Had one in my apartment in Shanghai.



Assuming that owning a common house hold appliance is a signal of social mobility is a FOX News talking point even when it comes from AOC.



lel



It sure as fuck has nothing to do with whether or not someone owns a coffee maker.

Practically the entirety of the US working class starts the day with a cup of coffee. You wanna lecture them about how they need to make their life a little bit less convenient to be more "socialist"?

"Your coffee machine automatically brews a cup at a set time instead of you having to press the button yourself? I'm sorry comrade but I must deduct two points from your Socialism Meter."




Next time keep driving.
It's a social media video about being surprised with an amenity of her new apartment that she didn't have before, and the caption just says “Is this what social mobility is? Using kitchen appliances you never saw growing up?” accompanied by a laughing emoji. If she straight up thought that garbage disposals were some accurate indicator of the economic opportunities you have access to, yeah that'd be dumb, but I think it's reaching to take what happened here as evidence of that.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
It's a social media video about being surprised with an amenity of her new apartment that she didn't have before, and the caption just says “Is this what social mobility is? Using kitchen appliances you never saw growing up?” accompanied by a laughing emoji. If she straight up thought that garbage disposals were some accurate indicator of the economic opportunities you have access to, yeah that'd be dumb, but I think it's reaching to take what happened here as evidence of that.
This is a fair enough assessment, but in my defense, there are enough examples of this where folks were serious.

I probably wasn't fair to her, but I came across it after having a discussion on commodity fetishism so there's certainly some projection on my part.
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,933
i thought malcom x was a socialist and marthin luther king was a social democrat, that was a surprise to me
 
Oct 25, 2017
518
The Black Socialists of America did a nice take down of that BS (thread):

This isn't really a rebuttal though? Nate Silver made a probabilistic claim "the socialist left in America is disproportionately white and black Americans tend to hold more moderate political views and support moderate candidates relative to white Democrats", not that leftism or socialism is intrinsically white and there are no important black figures or that it's wholly alien to black communities.
i thought malcom x was a socialist and marthin luther king was a social democrat, that was a surprise to me
mlk was a social democrat and referred to social democracy as socialism because that's how 99% of people use the term. I don't think he was a marxist and he was anticommunist (at least in terms of being critical of Marxism-Leninism which he terms communism, he obviously was famously against the vietnam war). His famous quotes refer to "democratic socialism" which except on narrow online arguments is always laborist social democracy.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
"People who Identify as Socialist" has generally been a white middle class "thing" for the past many decades. This is a joke in the late 60s film La Chinoise, for example. The DSA is pretty reluctant to disclose demographics for obvious reasons.

Obviously the socialist program knows no boundaries.

I don’t know what “moderate” democratic message people supposedly prefer over other messaging.
 
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collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,590
OK, I've seen a bunch of posts on social media comparing customers using rideshare apps during the strike to breaking a picket line but, I really don't see how lowering the demand for Uber/Lyft makes the strike more effective. If drivers wanted to make their absence more noticeable to corporate, wouldn't it be better for them to strike when there's higher demand?
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
I can understand the solidarity idea. But there is no perfect line here. DSA was posting similar things until their RideShare members pointed out that a lack of customers hurts their wages, which prompted the DSA to walk that back.
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,776
Colombia
This isn't really a rebuttal though? Nate Silver made a probabilistic claim "the socialist left in America is disproportionately white and black Americans tend to hold more moderate political views and support moderate candidates relative to white Democrats", not that leftism or socialism is intrinsically white and there are no important black figures or that it's wholly alien to black communities.
I simply posted the first tweet in thread.

 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
Denver
http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/04/29/rel6a.-.2020.democrats.pdf

Starting at Page 44 is a series of policy questions only asked to democrats if it's important for the primary candidate to support the following. Unfortunately it's grouped by non-white, but it's the best I could find.

Impeach Trump
White democrats - 60%
Nonwhite democrats - 84%

Pay reparations
White democrats - 53%
Nonwhite democrats - 75%

Address climate change
White democrats - 95%
Nonwhite democrats - 96%

Medicare for All
White democrats - 86%
Nonwhite democrats - 96%

Tuition free college
White democrats - 71%
Nonwhite democrats - 87%

Executive action on gun laws
White democrats - 81%
Nonwhite democrats - 89%

Restore voting rights for all convicted felons
White democrats - 55%
Nonwhite democrats - 65%
 
Oct 25, 2017
518
http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/04/29/rel6a.-.2020.democrats.pdf

Starting at Page 44 is a series of policy questions only asked to democrats if it's important for the primary candidate to support the following. Unfortunately it's grouped by non-white, but it's the best I could find.

Impeach Trump
White democrats - 60%
Nonwhite democrats - 84%

Pay reparations
White democrats - 53%
Nonwhite democrats - 75%

Address climate change
White democrats - 95%
Nonwhite democrats - 96%

Medicare for All
White democrats - 86%
Nonwhite democrats - 96%

Tuition free college
White democrats - 71%
Nonwhite democrats - 87%

Executive action on gun laws
White democrats - 81%
Nonwhite democrats - 89%

Restore voting rights for all convicted felons
White democrats - 55%
Nonwhite democrats - 65%
yeah this is an obvious better rebuttal!
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,392
Just came across this, I figured this was the right thread for it. "Dinosaurs" was an interesting show LOL:

 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
This is a bit dated but given China making the news this week I wanted to share this link.

http://chuangcn.org/journal/one/a-thousand-li/

As the Qing dynasty began its slow collapse, thousands of peasants were funneled into port cities to staff the bustling docks and sweatshops fueled by foreign silver. When these migrants died from the grueling work and casual violence of life in the treaty ports, their families often spent the sum of their remittances to ship the bodies home in a practice known as “transporting a corpse over a thousand li” (qian li xing shi), otherwise the souls would be lost and misfortune could befall the entire lineage.
Today, China itself has become such a wandering specter. The rural world is dying, yet hundreds of millions of workers still seem stuck between their peasant past and a future that fails to arrive. Two decades of staggering economic growth built on a series of credit bubbles have left a legacy of “development” defined by wastelands of apartment complexes sitting next to half-empty factory cities, each year filled with fewer workers and more unmanned machines. While the elite children of the country’s financial and administrative centers collect sports cars and foreign degrees, the children of today’s migrants are guaranteed little more than the fleeting chance to become yet another corpse crushed to pulp in the factory.

As growth rates dwindle, the country seems nonetheless driven ahead by an undead, mechanical momentum. Workers are laid off with nowhere to return. Ruralites give up their land in exchange for a fraction of the condos built on them, soon losing their value to an inflating currency. Entire landscapes are poisoned by decades of rapid industrial expansion, while urban centers succumb to man-made landslides, earthquakes and chemical explosions. Riots and strikes proliferate, but fail to cohere into anything larger. The working class has been dismantled. Nothing is left today but dead generations united in their separation, shambling through the fire and the dust.
What is Chuang? It is a collective of anti-capitalists who observe the current crisis in China from a truly anti-Capitalist Marxist Left. They look upon China and its role within the Capital system as both an anomaly and a fundamental. This consideration is taken from a modern look, how China exists and operates today in 2019 while acknowledging the existing Chinese state's origins.

This is the first of many to examine the Chinese Socialist experiment and its roll in suppressing the worker's movement.

Chuang is a collective of communists who consider the “China question” to be of central relevance to the contradictions of the world’s economic system and the potentials for its overcoming. For us, this question is not primarily historical. Our interest has little to do with the professed socialism of a country run by a “Communist Party” left over from the peasant wars of last century. Instead, the question raised by China is founded in the present. As a lynchpin in global production networks, Chinese crises threaten the capitalist system in a way that crises elsewhere do not. A bottoming-out in China would signal a truly systemic crisis in which the overcoming of capitalism may again become the horizon of popular struggles.

In this journal, our goal is to formulate a body of clear-headed theory capable of understanding contemporary China and its potential trajectories.
Their take is largely unconcerned with the materialist historical arch of China's last several years as they are not interested in the orthodox, dialectic interpretation of the history of Socialist states. They draw on Leftist, Communizer, and anti Statist theory to denote China's long running Capitalist reform and participation. This is primarily due to avoid an endless debate with the antiquated, outdated, and incorrect "Marxist Leninist" interpretation of history.

The history we review in this article is not intended to revive old, internecine battles within the left, nor to engage in a game of historical reenactment in which we map out our political direction according to a set of coordinates long ago rendered obsolete. Instead, we hope that our economic history of China can give some insight into contemporary conflicts in the region, illuminating both the inheritance of the socialist developmental regime and the unique limits to any emancipatory project that arises in the world’s largest nation and second-largest capitalist economy, which remains under the control of a regime that still claims a commitment to communism.


The link at the top is basically the intro into a significant document. If you have the time and are curious as to learning about the economic behavior of the Chinese Capitalist/Imperialist State then this is a decent essay to read.
 

Ogodei

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,243
Coruscant

Stumbled on a protest and counter-protest at the Venezuelan embassy today. The embassy had signs in the window saying "Coup Fail," while right in front of the embassy were anti-Maduro protestors, and then across the street were a mix of people who were a mix of apologetically pro-Maduro and who said they were anti-intervention but were running some sketchy anti-Guaido talking points, like claiming that Maduro's election was fully legitimate and that the following congressional elections that led to the current crisis were illegitimate.

Tough situation with wolves like Trump and Bolsonaro circling, but I think although Guaido has some very bad people in his corner, his base of support should be wide enough to prevent the country from going in a bad direction should he and the assembly take back power.

Edit: added working video, sorry for the vertical camera!
 
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samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,975
Superheroes are naturally fascistic/conservative. They exist above the law, are not democratically accountable, only fight threats that concern the destabilization of middle to upper middle class society and not, say, poverty, or lack of healthcare. Superman will save an old woman from falling and breaking her hip but he won't pay her healthcare bill. Tony Stark will invent a revolutionary energy source but not displace the coal industry.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,111
is that a debate? or its just the usual thing to make socialism and aoc look bad?
Probably the latter.
Superheroes are naturally fascistic/conservative. They exist above the law, are not democratically accountable, only fight threats that concern the destabilization of middle to upper middle class society and not, say, poverty, or lack of healthcare. Superman will save an old woman from falling and breaking her hip but he won't pay her healthcare bill. Tony Stark will invent a revolutionary energy source but not displace the coal industry.
Ohh no no. I completely agree with you on that score.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,969
Superheroes are naturally fascistic/conservative. They exist above the law, are not democratically accountable, only fight threats that concern the destabilization of middle to upper middle class society and not, say, poverty, or lack of healthcare. Superman will save an old woman from falling and breaking her hip but he won't pay her healthcare bill. Tony Stark will invent a revolutionary energy source but not displace the coal industry.
Put respect on the original vision for Superman. He sealed corrupt mining executives into their own mine and forced them to survive there so they'd see their workers' own deplorable conditions.

Superheroes are all the things that you said, but that's only the decomposition of an ideal, of an original dream. Sure, the original Superman was still above the law and not democratically accountable, but he embodied the idea of taking to task the forces of society. In terms of power he's as far above the ruling class as the ruling class is above the individual worker-- but he's in lockstep with the ideals of that worker. Maybe a vanguardist fantasy, in the end, but a vanguardist fantasy I can at least respect. Comic books, at their best, echo this dream, for better or worse.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,975
Put respect on the original vision for Superman. He sealed corrupt mining executives into their own mine and forced them to survive there so they'd see their workers' own deplorable conditions.
Oh yes, Golden Age superheroes were occasionally pro-labor and outwardly humanitarian but once people got "politics out of comics" they became allegories for sustaining the status quo at all costs. I was referring to mostly modern superheroes because that's where most of my experience with them lies.

Superman was definitely a rarified form of the American Dream but he's less and less that symbol these days.
 
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