Spider-Man: No Way Home [SPOILERS] - Leaks Discussion Thread

[Solo]

I guess I would have liked it more if they'd come to the conclusion that despite their best efforts, those villains were fated to die they way they always did and those Spide-Men also require that to happen to grow they way they did, and as such the villains needed to be sent back to fulfill that fate. That way you could still have had the Spider-Men team up fun and see the old villains again but not open up endless timelines including ostensibly ones where Holland's Aunt May doesn't die.

I dunno, just rubbed me the wrong way.

Also completely unrelated, but this movie looked like shit. Like, color grading wise. I don't know what Marvel is doing with these movies but more often than not I don't find them visually pleasing at all. It's not an issue of the set or costume design or lighting or framing, it's something they are doing in post production that really makes the movies look bad, with several exceptions.

 

[alundra311]

Yes, but the effect of the first spell was basically "Everyone who knows Peter Parker is Spider-man will come to the MCU"

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This is already correct but I'm just gonna add that "Everyone" means "Everyone in the multiverse" just to be clear.

but the second spell's effect has the MCU say "Peter Parker? i've never met this man in my life." So the first spell fizzles.

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If the second spell's effect is only intended for the MCU, then those multiversal beings who knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man still knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man. So, how does the second spell stop them from coming to the MCU?

Anyway, this spell is just convoluted and even the writers themselves don't know exactly how the spell works.

 

[KtotheRoc]

Eh, I'm not going with the timeline split as that just feels much less rewarding.

Just telling myself they were teleported back to the main timeline with Tobey and Peter in their present day.

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Is it more rewarding for Norman, after being cured, to appear in a timeline where his son is dead?

 

[Punchline]

I guess I would have liked it more if they'd come to the conclusion that despite their best efforts, those villains were fated to die they way they always did and those Spide-Men also require that to happen to grow they way they did, and as such the villains needed to be sent back to fulfill that fate. That way you could still have had the Spider-Men team up fun and see the old villains again but not open up endless timelines including ostensibly ones where Holland's Aunt May doesn't die.

I dunno, just rubbed me the wrong way.

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how the fuck is a movie that clearly centers these people as doing things that are out of their control or compelled to do them out of a fixable scenario going to come to the conclusion that Actually, They Should All Die for white protagonist character development? this is such a fucked up comment.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Is it more rewarding for Norman, after being cured, to appear in a timeline where his son is dead?

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lol sucks for him

 

[RealCanadianBro]

Is it more rewarding for Norman, after being cured, to appear in a timeline where his son is dead?

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Well...there's your plot for Toby-Man 4: Revenge of the Goblin...again.

Don't worry about the details tho lol

 

[KtotheRoc]

They'll make a Spider-Girl movie based off the Maguire-verse, and Mayday will have to fight Norman Jr. 😜

 

[alundra311]

As much as I liked Peter getting the classic suit at the end, but the more I think about it, I would have loved it if the movie ended with Spider-Man becoming Scarlet Spider. LOL.

 

[Doskoi Panda]

This is already correct but I'm just gonna add that "Everyone" means "Everyone in the multiverse" just to be clear.


If the second spell's effect is only intended for the MCU, then those multiversal beings who knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man still knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man. So, how does the second spell stop them from coming to the MCU?

Anyway, this spell is just convoluted and even the writers themselves don't know exactly how the spell works.

Click to shrink...

You're right about that, lol. I've come to think of it like this - the second spell has priority over the first, in a sense.

Excuse me for the bullshit I'm about to lay down, please.

Imagine if I cast a spell to remove all toasters from the planet, but it goes wrong, and the spell is unable to resolve itself, and it's producing side effects over time.

BUT THEN, I - successfully - cast a second spell - a simpler spell, free of caveats that might overcomplicate it - a spell that finishes casting with no adverse effects - and that second spell removes the very concept of toasted bread from the planet.

In casting that second spell, I have enabled the first spell to resolve itself - toast doesn't exist... so now, toasters don't either. The first spell fizzles out, the side effects revert - because a spell targeting toasters, a spell intended to remove toasters, is functionless in a universe where toast and toasters don't exist. The first spell is no longer attempting to resolve. There's nothing to resolve.

It's bullshit, but I believe it.

 

[blame space]

is the matt murdock cameo supposed to be just a fun one-off or should i read into it?

 

[KtotheRoc]

is the matt murdock cameo supposed to be just a fun one-off or should i read into it?

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Charlie Cox is absolutely going to appear in the MCU again.

 

[blame space]

thank god

rewatching DD right now. it's so good.

 

[alundra311]

You're right about that, lol. I've come to think of it like this - the second spell has priority over the first, in a sense.

Excuse me for the bullshit I'm about to lay down, please.

Imagine if I cast a spell to remove all toasters from the planet, but it goes wrong, and the spell is unable to resolve itself, and it's producing side effects over time.

BUT THEN, I - successfully - cast a second spell - a simpler spell, free of caveats that might overcomplicate it - a spell that finishes casting with no adverse effects - and that second spell removes the very concept of toasted bread from the planet.

In casting that second spell, I have enabled the first spell to resolve itself - toast doesn't exist... so now, toasters don't either. The first spell fizzles out, the side effects revert - because a spell targeting toasters, a spell intended to remove toasters, is functionless in a universe where toast and toasters don't exist. The first spell is no longer attempting to resolve. There's nothing to resolve.

It's bullshit, but I believe it.

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It's a bit confusing but, somehow, I get it. Haha.

Your theory would work if Peter Parker (the toaster) doesn't exist anymore. But Peter Parker still exists in the MCU which means there's still a reason for those beings to get pulled into the MCU. Now, if the spell completely erases MCU Peter, i.e. he disappears or his identity is completely changed (meaning he's a different person now and even he no longer remembers he was Peter in the past), I can see the spell stopping those multiversal beings from coming.

 

[bloopland33]

Andrew shows up in his spidey suit but Tobey shows up in street clothes - what was the thought behind that do you think? Especially after how Andrew came in I totally expected Tobey to be introduced in the classic suit too

I know why the character may have not been suited up atm but that wasn't a need of the story

 

[Punchline]

Andrew shows up in his spidey suit but Tobey shows up in street clothes - what was the thought behind that do you think? Especially after how Andrew came in I totally expected Tobey to be introduced in the classic suit too

I know why the character may have not been suited up atm but that wasn't a need of the story

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i mean... the symbolism is obvious, is it not? andrew is a peter consumed by the task of being spider-man, while tobey has a better balance of being peter parker and spider-man. he has the suit under his civilan clothes but hes not active in the field all the time.

 

[Nuszka]

Am i missing something ? How was Venom teleported to the universe if he didn't know who Spider-Man was? Did I miss something in the Venom movies?

 

[yap]

Am i missing something ? How was Venom teleported to the universe if he didn't know who Spider-Man was? Did I miss something in the Venom movies?

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There was an after credits scene in Let There Be Carnage, where Venom reveals symbiotes have a multi-universal hive knowledge. They were then teleported to MCU because, technically, Hardy Venom knows Peter Parker because of (presumably) Spider-Man 3.

 

[Solo]

This movie is an absolute mess when you think about it for more than a minute or two eh? It's lots of fun and works emotionally but it's basically held together by duct tape and the hopes that the audience won't look too closely at anything. Fascinating experiment that mostly works though due to the audience's emotional connection with some or all of the Spider-Men. As a movie though I think Marvel has done much better.

And don't get me wrong - for my personal tastes, generally speaking if you can get me emotionally, you succeeded. And this movie did that, so overall it's successful to me. But narratively, thematically and from a characterization perspective, I think the movie is a mess. Heck, the entire conceit of the film is set up by writing Dr. Strange completely out of character from what we've seen of him so far.

PS I REALLY loved the deep cut back injury Maguire joke. That was absolute gold.

 

[bloopland33]

i mean... the symbolism is obvious, is it not? andrew is a peter consumed by the task of being spider-man, while tobey has a better balance of being peter parker and spider-man. he has the suit under his civilan clothes but hes not active in the field all the time.

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I guess it wasn't. Not a bad explanation, although he knows he was transported to a different world and something wild is going on with Otto/Normal alive again so I'm not sure the 'better work-life balance/doesn't need to be active all the time' applies as much as it would on a normal day in his Raimiverse lol

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

I guess I would have liked it more if they'd come to the conclusion that despite their best efforts, those villains were fated to die they way they always did and those Spide-Men also require that to happen to grow they way they did, and as such the villains needed to be sent back to fulfill that fate. That way you could still have had the Spider-Men team up fun and see the old villains again but not open up endless timelines including ostensibly ones where Holland's Aunt May doesn't die.

I dunno, just rubbed me the wrong way.

Also completely unrelated, but this movie looked like shit. Like, color grading wise. I don't know what Marvel is doing with these movies but more often than not I don't find them visually pleasing at all. It's not an issue of the set or costume design or lighting or framing, it's something they are doing in post production that really makes the movies look bad, with several exceptions.

Click to shrink...

This has been a common gripe from the Blank Check guys since they did their commentary tracks for the Marvel movies. Around Civil War everything starts to look bland as fuck. I think it's become a studio creed and being executed by the Russos and anyone else they've brought in. Really the only visually pleasing Marvel flicks since Phase 2 started have been the Guardians flicks and Ragnarok.

 

[Razmos]

I really liked the line about a black spiderman

Garfield crying after saving MJ made me sob lmao

 

[LSauchelli]

I guess it wasn't. Not a bad explanation, although he knows he was transported to a different world and something wild is going on with Otto/Normal alive again so I'm not sure the 'better work-life balance/doesn't need to be active all the time' applies as much as it would on a normal day in his Raimiverse lol

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They were both looking for Holland-man. I guess Maguire-man was in the process of getting some information that required him not using his suit.

 

[Solo]

This has been a common gripe from the Blank Check guys since they did their commentary tracks for the Marvel movies. Around Civil War everything starts to look bland as fuck. I think it's become a studio creed and being executed by the Russos and anyone else they've brought in. Really the only visually pleasing Marvel flicks since Phase 2 started have been the Guardians flicks and Ragnarok.

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Yeah I'd tend to agree....it's a shame too, they certainly put tons of money into these things and on paper all the elements should be visually appealing, and then the whole thing seems to get neutered in post with grading that either Feige or someone else near the top has signed off on, but unfortunately it makes everything look flat and washed out.

 

[bloopland33]

They were both looking for Holland-man. I guess Maguire-man was in the process of getting some information that required him not using his suit.

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Good point!

Also completely unrelated, but this movie looked like shit. Like, color grading wise. I don't know what Marvel is doing with these movies but more often than not I don't find them visually pleasing at all. It's not an issue of the set or costume design or lighting or framing, it's something they are doing in post production that really makes the movies look bad, with several exceptions.

Click to shrink...

Could you be more specific with how that presented in this movie? I don't really notice it which ignorance is bliss so I don't want to...but I'm also curious what you're seeing

 

[Solo]

I actually thought for a while that they were going to go full Tom Welling on Maguire and never have him in the suit. Was very pleased to finally see that beautiful 2004 suit again eventually!

 

[skillzilla81]

I guess it wasn't. Not a bad explanation, although he knows he was transported to a different world and something wild is going on with Otto/Normal alive again so I'm not sure the 'better work-life balance/doesn't need to be active all the time' applies as much as it would on a normal day in his Raimiverse lol

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Toby Spidey asked if Garfield Spidey had anybody and Peter 3 said, "I don't have time for Parker stuff." Tobey Spidey said, "It's a balance, you know, we make it work." or something like that.

 

[Solo]

Good point!

Could you be more specific with how that presented in this movie? I don't really notice it which ignorance is bliss so I don't want to...but I'm also curious what you're seeing

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Patrick Willems is much more eloquent than I could ever be on the subject:

Why Do Marvel's Movies Look Kind of Ugly? (video essay)

I really like the movies Marvel Studios makes, but I really wish they would improve their color grading.Consider donating to our Patreon: https://www.patreon...

youtu.be

This is 5+ years old now but still relevant as all Marvel movies continue to look like this.

 

[jwk94]

Yeah, the Marvel movies looking bad is far more apparent after watching Amazing Spidey 1 and 2. Those are some gorgeous films.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Yeah, the Marvel movies looking bad is far more apparent after watching Amazing Spidey 1 and 2. Those are some gorgeous films.

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its been ages since I've watched them - is that true? I remember not being particularly dazzled by them but that was before I had my eye trained to spot that sort of stuff.

 

[jwk94]

its been ages since I've watched them - is that true? I remember not being particularly dazzled by them but that was before I had my eye trained to spot that sort of stuff.

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Yep! It probably helps that I watched em in 4k/hdr

 

[Solo]

It's funny that in the end of the video he says he has hope for GotG2 - I think that might be the best looking MCU movie from a color grading perspective- it really pops.

No Way Home does not, and has that same washed out look most MCU movies do. It's such a shame. And it has no reason whatsoever to look that way aside from some MCU fiefdom creative decree.

 

[bloopland33]

Toby Spidey asked if Garfield Spidey had anybody and Peter 3 said, "I don't have time for Parker stuff." Tobey Spidey said, "It's a balance, you know, we make it work." or something like that.

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No I agree I definitely get that. I was saying I doubt that was the in-universe explanation on this particular day, what was probably the most batshit confusing day of Tobey-man's life haha. I was just surprised when the creative team decided not to have his grand return be in the Spidey suit for some reason but Andrew's was

 

[Solo]

Also yeah, they botched the Tobey reveal. It isn't even that he wasn't wearing the suit (it's actually fitting for where he is in life), but more that it almost immediately followed Garfield's. Those should have been spaced out and been 2 different scenes. Also docking Giacchino big points for his usage of the Elfman Spider-Man theme- yeah, he used snippets of it like twice, but it was so truncated and didn't include the best part (the build up). It's still my favorite Spider-Man theme and I felt it deserved more airtime and better usage.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Patrick Willems is much more eloquent than I could ever be on the subject:

Why Do Marvel's Movies Look Kind of Ugly? (video essay)

I really like the movies Marvel Studios makes, but I really wish they would improve their color grading.Consider donating to our Patreon: https://www.patreon...

youtu.be

This is 5+ years old now but still relevant as all Marvel movies continue to look like this.

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I've found this video to be more nuanced than Patrick's

 

[Solo]

I've found this video to be more nuanced than Patrick's

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Yeah there's a few good videos on the subject! I don't know if I agree with his basic hypothesis though (about it being a problem of heroes with clashing colors) as there have been superhero movies not made by Marvel Studios (and a couple that have!) that feature clashing color palettes and still don't look washed out.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Yeah there's a few good videos on the subject! I don't know if I agree with his basic hypothesis though (about it being a problem of heroes with clashing colors) as there have been superhero movies not made by Marvel Studios (and a couple that have!) that feature clashing color palettes and still don't look washed out.

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Sure, which I would ascribe to various x-factors like production time, production design, and who's behind the camera.

 

[Solo]

Sure, which I would ascribe to various x-factors like production time, production design, and who's behind the camera.

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Which ultimately are all solvable issues, but yes I think we have reached the root issue here - Marvel being this huge interlinked machine has an efficient (if ugly as fuck) pipeline in place to deliver 3-4 of these movies a year. And let's be honest, the majority of the audience doesn't notice or care, so there's little motivation to change things.

But NWH could have looked so much better and that just kills me.

 

[Imran]

Heck, the entire conceit of the film is set up by writing Dr. Strange completely out of character from what we've seen of him so far.

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I keep seeing this complaint and I really don't agree. All of it is very much in line with Strange.

He was right about how to defeat Thanos, but being right caused him to lose his position as sorcerer supreme, and having a position that says he's the best is very important to Strange. He gets told not to do a spell by the new sorcerer supreme, so of course he's going to immediately do that spell.

Moreover, he has a Messiah complex, and his one working plan for Endgame resulted in Tony Stark dying, which Strange couldn't even warn him about. He's carrying around a ton of guilt for it and wants to fix the world for people and doesn't know how to do that outside of magic. The spell fucks up, he immediately wants it fixed, and it ends up snowballing beyond his control.

That's just Strange all over.

 

[xxracerxx]

I keep seeing this complaint and I really don't agree. All of it is very much in line with Strange.

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Absolutely, the dude is arrogant as fuck and if told not to do something just makes him want to do it.

 

[Solo]

I keep seeing this complaint and I really don't agree. All of it is very much in line with Strange.

He was right about how to defeat Thanos, but being right caused him to lose his position as sorcerer supreme, and having a position that says he's the best is very important to Strange. He gets told not to do a spell by the new sorcerer supreme, so of course he's going to immediately do that spell.

Moreover, he has a Messiah complex, and his one working plan for Endgame resulted in Tony Stark dying, which Strange couldn't even warn him about. He's carrying around a ton of guilt for it and wants to fix the world for people and doesn't know how to do that outside of magic. The spell fucks up, he immediately wants it fixed, and it ends up snowballing beyond his control.

That's just Strange all over.

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But see, that's kinds exactly it to me!

Mr "I'm protecting your reality, douchebag", the same man that didn't think twice about sending Tony to his death is now suddenly full of sentiment and wants to help a teenager out? I don't buy that he would do that spell for Peter.

He's also crazy egotistical yes, and talented and a confident perfectionist, and so even if I did buy him doing Peter that kindness, I then don't buy him botching the spell. Especially given when he pulled off in his standalone movie and Infinity War/Endgame.

That doesn't work for me. It feels like they neutered him and made him a bit of a buffoon to set the plot into motion, neither of which I really feel the character has been before. But to each their own! The only part I buy is his recklessness.

 

[Imran]

But see, that's kinds exactly it to me!

Mr "I'm protecting your reality, douchebag", the same man that didn't think twice about sending Tony to his death is now suddenly full of sentiment and wants to help a teenager out? I don't buy that he would do that spell for Peter.

He's also crazy egotistical yes, and talented and a confident perfectionist, and so even if I did buy him doing Peter that kindness, I then don't buy him botching the spell. Especially given when he pulled off in his standalone movie and Infinity War/Endgame.

That doesn't work for me. It feels like they neutered him and made him a bit of a buffoon to set the plot into motion, neither of which I really feel the character has been before. But to each their own! The only part I by is the recklessness.

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But he didn't fuck the spell up, Peter fucked the spell up. Strange was confident in making small adjustments because he's so egotistical and has done this thing multiple times. But because he let Peter, who he definitely has a different view on now that he let him disappear for five years and also let his mentor march to his death right in front of him, make those adjustments on the fly, the spell messed up.

Even the best chef is going to have some problems with a toddler running around the kitchen helping.

 

[Lotus]

They saved the universe together and the original spell honestly isn't a big deal on Strange's part, he already did it before. And even then he chewed him out several times, like when he found out Peter didn't even bother to try and speak to the woman handling the admissions.

Peter's last minute alterations are what botched it, not incompetence on Strange's part.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

I keep seeing this complaint and I really don't agree. All of it is very much in line with Strange.

He was right about how to defeat Thanos, but being right caused him to lose his position as sorcerer supreme, and having a position that says he's the best is very important to Strange. He gets told not to do a spell by the new sorcerer supreme, so of course he's going to immediately do that spell.

Moreover, he has a Messiah complex, and his one working plan for Endgame resulted in Tony Stark dying, which Strange couldn't even warn him about. He's carrying around a ton of guilt for it and wants to fix the world for people and doesn't know how to do that outside of magic. The spell fucks up, he immediately wants it fixed, and it ends up snowballing beyond his control.

That's just Strange all over.

Click to shrink...

for me, it's that it feels like he's back to the beginning of his first movie, as if almost all his character progression of that movie has been erased. even more so actually, since what he did here cost lives, lots of them, and he doesn't even seem phased by it.

in his own movie, he didn't even want to join the sorcerers at first, because he didn't want anything to do with fighting, and now he's spewing out magicks carelessly, destroying people's lives. And I don't think it's the same as him being arrogant in surgery, that was shown as warranted. if he had made a mistake on this level as a doctor, seems to me he wouldn't have been able to live with himself being so incompetent.

maybe it would have been alright for me if the movie showed that they wrote it with some intent as to this state of mind, this level of incompetency. like showing him acknowledging how terribly he failed.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

They saved the universe together and the original spell honestly isn't a big deal on Strange's part, he already did it before. And even then he chewed him out several times, like when he found out Peter didn't even bother to try and speak to the woman handling the admissions.

Peter's last minute alterations are what botched it, not incompetence on Strange's part.

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Strange is the one who did the spell and the alterations, he was in full control, regardless of Peter's requests. He could have just not altered the spell and ignored Peter's requests.

 

[Lotus]

maybe it would have been alright for me if the movie showed that they wrote it with some intent as to this state of mind, this level of incompetency. like showing him acknowledging how terribly he failed.

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They decided to just make a movie out of it instead lol

 

[Deleted member 1445]

They decided to just make a movie out of it instead lol

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you think they'll feature that in MoM? hmm, that'd be cool i guess. didn't get that from the trailer though?

 

[Solo]

They decided to just make a movie out of it instead lol

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That's my whole point/issue. Obviously superhero movies need some framing device or mechanism from which to launch the story, but this particular one feels so....written? Her durr all movies are written, but I think you know what I mean. I feels like they wrote Strange completely out of character to service the plot instead of crafting a plot around the character.

 

[Fj0823]

That's my whole point/issue. Obviously superhero movies need some framing device or mechanism from which to launch the story, but this particular one feels so....written? Her durr all movies are written, but I think you know what I mean. I feels like they wrote Strange completely out of character to service the plot instead of crafting a plot around the character.

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We have seen Strange fucking up and finding out several times.

He immediately begins to tamper with time itself given the chance!

 

[LSauchelli]

Strange is basically Magical Tony Stark. But more arrogant.

 

[Lotus]

Strange is the one who did the spell and the alterations, he was in full control, regardless of Peter's requests. He could have just not altered the spell and ignored Peter's requests.

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IIRC it was plainly stated that just canceling the spell once it's started ain't really doable, hence why he ended up having to contain it instead, which from their perspective seemingly worked at the time.

As for ignoring his requests, I mean this is for Peter's sake in the first place, he's doing him a favor. Obviously yea, very annoying to be told to do some last minute edits, but just coldly leaving Peter with no one remembering he's Spider-Man when he clearly doesn't want that is no good either. Otherwise what's the point?

That's my whole point/issue. Obviously superhero movies need some framing device or mechanism from which to launch the story, but this particular one feels so....written? Her durr all movies are written, but I think you know what I mean. I feels like they wrote Strange completely out of character to service the plot instead of crafting a plot around the character.

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There's absolutely nothing out of character, dude has been arrogant as fuck since Day 1

We even got a relatively recent, massive reminder of that arrogance in the What If episode that focused on him

you think they'll feature that in MoM? hmm, that'd be cool i guess. didn't get that from the trailer though?

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I mean the trailer had a voiceover of Wong scolding him in NWH, and overall it just seems relatively clear to me that MoM is partly happening because of the events of NWH