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Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/15/squar...uda-interview-better-leader-follower-7229024/

Interview is actually a few weeks old, but there was no thread about it and he elaborates on some interesting things including embracing the Japanese-ness of their games, which he also mentioned as a positive thing in today's earning press conference. Some quotes:


On the Japan's last-gen troubles:
GC: Given your position I can't resist asking you about the problems the Japanese games industry had last generation. To us, as consumers in the West, it seemed to happen very suddenly, where Japan went from being the Hollywood of gaming to near irrelevance in just a year or so. It's become clear recently that the problem was largely technical, thanks to a slowness to adopt modern practices such as using middleware, but what happened from your point of view? And are we now safely out of that difficult period?

YM: There's lots of different ways you can look at this problem and the issues that happened then. But I think, certainly, it really was the changeover in the hardware generation. I think the real thing that happened there was that the scale of game production – the people involved in it and the amount of effort you need to make a single game – really, really expanded at that time. It is undoubtedly true that a lot of Japanese companies, including us, did hit that barrier. And certainly, with the technical issues you mentioned, bringing in middleware and things like that was difficult. I think one of the other things that happened is that there was a changeover in some of the mainstream genres and what was popular. The rise of shooting games really happened between that changeover to the Xbox 360/PlayStation 3 generation. And even within the field of RPGs it went very much towards the more open world kind of action RPG style. So I think there are a lot of things that Japanese developers had to catch up with, and there was a lot of scratching of heads and really wondering what the best way of doing that would be. Also, I think if you look at what happened then a lot of the Japanese companies tried to emulate the Western game designs and styles, and certainly made those kind of shooting games. And I think the truth of it was they didn't go that well. [laughs]

GC: [laughs]

YM: I think what changed is that basically after those experiments and those failures, and then it not working out, a lot of the Japanese developers have now used that experience to say, 'Well OK, we can make games in the style that we're comfortable with in our own way'. And that newfound confidence is I think what you're seeing with the current resurgence.

On embracing their Japanese style:
GC: It's not just that Japanese creators are good at making video games, but the fact that many Japanese titles make their origins very obvious. They're not trying to be American, which in itself can be very refreshing. Is that something you encourage now? Do you tell your developers not to be scared to make the games appear Japanese?

YM: I do very much tell our developers that kind of thing, that's very much the way we think about it. Certainly, I think rather than trying to copy something from someone else it's better to be a leader than a follower. And rather than saying, 'You've got to make this in this kind of style, as these foreign companies make it – because that's popular…' I think you always get a better result if you tell them to make what they want to make. And you get a team together because they're passionate about making it in a certain way. Rather than giving them a certain style to follow, we say, 'You make something that represents you and what you think'. And I think that definitely results in a better product. That's the way I always advise my development team! I think when you try and bring in all kinds of elements from outside and mix them together… things get lost and you don't know what's going on. We often say things are getting 'blurred' and you're not sure what you're making. So we always try to avoid that and make sure it's a solid vision.

On GaaS:
GC: It was interesting because it talked about the success of NieR: Automata, and yet in the same document it also talked about the rise of games as a service and the idea that single-player games were no longer as popular as they used to be. And we've heard a lot of similar things from other publishers recently as well. What exactly is your approach to games as a service and how do you contrast that to a game like NieR? Which is the exact opposite but has been an unexpected success.

YM: Games as a service has a very wide meaning, it can mean a lot of things! [laughs] Recently people have been discussing loot boxes and people not using that properly, I think that's all linked to this bad perception people have to the words 'games as a service'. But really, the way we're looking at it, what it boils down to is… that idea of keeping people engaged with our games and enjoying them for longer periods of time. That's the way we really look at the problem. The way we use that expression, really… the whole idea, for a single-player game particularly, is the idea that you have the game released and you keep adding more content to keep the players engaged and enjoying the game. And that helps to make it more of a full experience, and that brings in more players to the original game. That's the rough approach we take to the idea, and that's why we described games as a service in that sense.

On singleplayer games:
YM: We will definitely be making more single-player games, definitely. I think the environment now, that we have, there's even more platforms, there's even more opportunities to get single-player games out to people. So, for example, mobile phone games, we're not just making free-to-play games for that, we're making proper single-player games, re-releases of old titles, new titles as well. So mobile phones don't just have to be about that kind of thing. The Switch is another great platform to come out for single-player games, so we've got a lot of opportunities and we really do want to continue making single-player games!

More at the link!
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
It's nice to hear him talk about how Japanese tried to emulate western design because I think Square said that with FFXIII back then. I'm not 100% sure on that.
 
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Koozek

Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
It's nice to hear him talk about how Japanese tried to emulate western design because I think Square said that with FFXIII back then. I'm not 100% sure on that.
Toriyama said that FFXIII was similar in structure to CoD:
That is how Final Fantasy XIII designer and writer Motomu Toriyama describes the latest game in the 22-year-old series, born on the Nintendo Entertainment System. Toriyama told Kotaku that the design of Final Fantasy XIII doesn't follow the JRPG "template" intentionally, a choice that has received mixed response.

"The basic RPG functions are to go into towns, prepare for battle by going to shops, then go out in the field," Toriyama explained. "In that sense, Final Fantasy XIII doesn't have towns or shops—it's more that players are thrown into a story, presented with different situations as they move forward in the field and keep progressing that way."

Here's how that relates to Call of Duty, in Toriyama's mind.

"In that sense it's more similar to an FPS genre, like Call of Duty," he said. "That's not to say it's an action shooting game at all, so Final Fantasy XIII takes some different aspects of different genres, transcending different types of games."

Source: https://kotaku.com/5470533/final-fa...-of-call-of-duty-card-games--the-toyota-prius
 

MZZ

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,263
Really good outlook for japanese games and games in general. He has a grounded awareness of past mistakes and learning from said mistakes. Very good observations of current trends as well. I like his answers.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I don't think SE are doing any better than they did last gen, at least in terms of the 'HD twin' RPG support.

The Star Oceans, FFXIII and XV, Infinite Undiscovery and The Last Remnant, The World of FF...

Basically, Nier was great, and Nier Automata is really good.
 
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Koozek

Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
I don't think SE are doing any better than they did last gen, at least in terms of the 'HD twin' RPG support.

The Star Oceans, FFXIII and XV, Infinite Undiscovery and The Last Remnant, The World of FF...

Basically, Nier was great, and Nier Automata is really good.
I don't get your post :D The games you named are the ones you thought were good? FFXV and WoFF aren't last-gen.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Yeah the Japanese no longer chasing Western game design and influences and doing what they do best was one of the smartest moves they could have made. People love playing games from Japanese developers because of their takes on gameplay and design.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I don't get your post :D The games you named are the ones you thought were good? FFXV and WoFF aren't last-gen.
I don't think any of those games except the two Niers are good. My point was I don't see any difference between their work last gen and this gen, especially in terms of being 'Western'. FFXIII was inspired by CoD style 'corridor' experiences? Okay. What's XV? Where'd they get the open world, banal quest design concepts? Western RPGs.
 

Henrik

Member
Jan 3, 2018
1,607
I don't think any of those games except the two Niers are good. My point was I don't see any difference between their work last gen and this gen, especially in terms of being 'Western'. FFXIII was inspired by CoD style 'corridor' experiences? Okay. What's XV? Where'd they get the open world, banal quest design concepts? Western RPGs.
I think Japanese companies should learn from MHW and Zelda BOTW. It's about different experience that Western devs cannot match. They have to find their own niche/origin.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I think Japanese companies should learn from MHW and Zelda BOTW. It's about different experience that Western devs cannot match. They have to find their own niche/origin.
I'd love that to be the case, but I remember SE staff saying this kind of thing after Bravely Default. Like 'Shit, people like it in the West when we go full Japanese too, where going to do that', the fruits of that have yet to be seen.

I'm very excited to see DMC5. I really really want it to have a very Japanese flavour to it, because as much as I love RE7, there's nothing Japanese about it. Could have come from any Western studio to me.
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
His take on GaaS is one I wholeheartedly embrace. I have loved the extra support FFXV has been getting.

Also good to hear reassurances on the continuation of SP games. Just another reason SE is my favorite publisher.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
I'm semi okay with that GaaS model IF a definitive version including all released content is made available down the line for longevity and preservation.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
it's not just square enix. capcom is also moving away from western culture. japanese game development danced with the idea of westernization but we're currently observing a regression.

this is a good thing for variety and diversity in videogames.

i wonder how different a timeline we would be in if the trans-pacific partnership was accepted. i'm glad we're not in that timeline. dodged a bullet there.
 
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Koozek

Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
I don't think any of those games except the two Niers are good. My point was I don't see any difference between their work last gen and this gen, especially in terms of being 'Western'. FFXIII was inspired by CoD style 'corridor' experiences? Okay. What's XV? Where'd they get the open world, banal quest design concepts? Western RPGs.
He didn't say Japanese devs shouldn't take inspirations from non-Japanese games ever. It's known that DQ and FF were inspired by early WRPGs like Wizardry and Ultima too, but then put their own twist on it. FFXV is still unmistakably Japanese/FF with its sensibilities and designs, I'd say. It's definitely no Dragon Age or Skyrim. Matsuda said he would let the devs do what they like and what their vision is, and in FFXV's case that was open-world, which Tabata was adamant about. The team said several times that they loved and studied Witcher 3 and other WRPGs. Also, banal checklist/fetch-quest stuff exist in any RPG or games in general now.

Matsuda was certainly talking about stuff like Quantum Theory or Mindjack when he said that last-gen "Japanese companies tried to emulate the Western game designs and styles, and certainly made those kind of shooting games." I wouldn't take the Toriyama quote so literally - sounds like he just compared the linear, moment-to-moment structure to another popular game to justify it after the backlash, probably.

Anyway, point is SE will keep on making JRPGs.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
It is always best (if anything good is possible in the situation) to have your own voice, even if it is also preferable if that voice be informed by the voices of others. Take criticism and reflect on it internally and come back at it from an internally resonant perspective. Don't chase the words of others. Reflect on them together with your own.

It is always a struggle when you have to meet an audience to maintain your own vision and not just be subsumed in theirs, but there is greater power, ultimately, in something that convinces from its own place rather than something that just conforms to expectations. It is a dance between becoming acceptable and refining the product mindful of what the audience wants and belief in "I do have something my own to say." You want to bring the audience to accepting the latter rather than just seeing you as a repository of their own ideas.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
He didn't say Japanese devs shouldn't take inspirations from non-Japanese games ever. It's known that DQ and FF were inspired by early WRPGs like Wizardry and Ultima too, but then put their own twist on it. FFXV is still unmistakably Japanese/FF with its sensibilities and designs, I'd say. It's definitely no Dragon Age or Skyrim. Matsuda said he would let the devs do what they like and what their vision is, and in FFXV's case that was open-world, which Tabata was adamant about. The team said several times that they loved and studied Witcher 3 and other WRPGs. Also, banal checklist/fetch-quest stuff exist in any RPG or games in general now.

Matsuda was certainly talking about stuff like Quantum Theory or Mindjack when he said that last-gen "Japanese companies tried to emulate the Western game designs and styles, and certainly made those kind of shooting games." I wouldn't take the Toriyama quote so literally - sounds like he just compared the linear, moment-to-moment structure to another popular game to justify it after the backlash, probably.

Anyway, point is SE will keep on making JRPGs.

It kind of reminds me of the 'Music of Black Origins' awards we have the UK. Quantum Theory and Binary Domain certainly took very closely from Gears, as did, of course, Vanquish. But Gears itself was taking from Resident Evil 4. Japan and the West have always gone back and forth, I think it's healthy, but yeah, I would agree XV retains the feel of a Japanese title, despite leaning heavily on modern western sensibilities, I just wish it didn't even do that. Ni no Kuni 2 looks to be much closer to what I'd want from a FFXV than XV did.
 

FromAshesRise

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
923
I don't think SE are doing any better than they did last gen, at least in terms of the 'HD twin' RPG support.

The Star Oceans, FFXIII and XV, Infinite Undiscovery and The Last Remnant, The World of FF...

Basically, Nier was great, and Nier Automata is really good.

Nier Automata was incredible, Dragon Quest Builders was incredible, Dragon Quest XI by all accounts looks incredible, FFXV was a flawed but great game, DQH was fun, I Am Setsuna was flawed but good. I never played World Of FF, but I heard very good things about it. If KH3 is anything like the prologue that came out last year, that game will likely be incredible. Octopath is looking fantastic. Star Ocean V was trash.

Compared to last gen: Nier was incredible. Drakengard 3 had an excellent story but had horrible performance issues. - FF XIII, Infinite Undiscovery, The Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4 were trash.

If you want to count Bravely Default I'll give you that too. 2 great games over a steaming pile of shit. That sums up 7th gen video games to me.
 
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sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
Nier Automata was incredible, Dragon Quest Builders was incredible, Dragon Quest XI by all accounts looks incredible, FFXV was a flawed but great game, DQH was fun, I Am Setsuna was flawed but good. I never played World Of FF, but I heard very good things about it. If KH3 is anything like the prologue that came out last year, that game will likely be incredible. Octopath is looking fantastic. Star Ocean V was trash.

Compared to last gen: Nier was incredible. Drakengard 3 had an excellent story but had horrible performance issues. - FF XIII, Infinite Undiscovery, The Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4 were trash.

DQ games were incredible last gen too.

Last gen also had TWEWY which was one of the most innovative jRPG of all time. Also had good FF spin-offs (Type-0, Crisis Core, Ring of Fates, Dissidia) and remakes (III and IV).

I feel the notion that Japanese gaming was irrelevant last gen seems a bit fabricated.
 

FromAshesRise

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
923
DQ games were incredible last gen too.

Aside from DQ X - which never even got released in the US - what DQ games got released last gen? I can't think of a single one.


Last gen also had TWEWY which was one of the most innovative jRPG of all time. Also had good FF spin-offs (Type-0, Crisis Core, Ring of Fates, Dissidia) and remakes (III and IV).

I feel the notion that Japanese gaming was irrelevant last gen seems a bit fabricated.

Edit: you're right - I erroneously noted DS as 6th gen.

That said it's pretty hard to count handheld in this equation since the thread is mainly about Home console games.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
DQ games were incredible last gen too.

Last gen also had TWEWY which was one of the most innovative jRPG of all time. Also had good FF spin-offs (Type-0, Crisis Core, Ring of Fates, Dissidia) and remakes (III and IV).

I feel the notion that Japanese gaming was irrelevant last gen seems a bit fabricated.

For the western audience which gave two shits about handheld or mobile japanese gacha, it pretty much was irrelevant. It was worse because of how fucked the console iterations of these companies were. Making shitty games like Quantum Theory, Mindjack, and the AAA "westernization" of all the franchises to "appeal" to the west's AAA boom obsession with big budget FPS's and such. SE sitting out almost the entire gen outside of lighting nonsense because they didn't know how to make an engine, or games properly on an HD scale. IT WAS HELL
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,477
DQ games were incredible last gen too.

Last gen also had TWEWY which was one of the most innovative jRPG of all time. Also had good FF spin-offs (Type-0, Crisis Core, Ring of Fates, Dissidia) and remakes (III and IV).

I feel the notion that Japanese gaming was irrelevant last gen seems a bit fabricated.
Type 0 sucked though
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
Aside from DQ X - which never even got released in the US - what DQ games got released last gen? I can't think of a single one.

DQIX.

That said it's pretty hard to count handheld in this equation since the thread is mainly about Home console games.

I count them because they offer video games and some of them were of high quality. That's why I said the argument feels fabricated.

For the western audience which gave two shits about handheld or mobile japanese gacha, it pretty much was irrelevant. It was worse because of how fucked the console iterations of these companies were. Making shitty games like Quantum Theory, Mindjack, and the AAA "westernization" of all the franchises to "appeal" to the west's AAA boom obsession with big budget FPS's and such. SE sitting out almost the entire gen outside of lighting nonsense because they didn't know how to make an engine, or games properly on an HD scale. IT WAS HELL

Well, Square also started pretty soon to develop HD games: The Last Remnant, Project Silpheed and Infinite Undiscovery were all 2006-2007. The Western audience adopted handheld to a great extent. DS and PSP were wildly successful in North America and Europe. DQIX sold 1m+ in the West. Crisis Core and Dissidia were also big successes. In this very gen you had Bravely Default which sold 1m worldwide.

Shitty games exist in this gen too. Dissidia NT seems pretty mediocre, I Am Setsuna and Lost Sphear pretty forgettable.

Type 0 sucked though

It wasn't bad in my opinion among current-gen FF spin-offs.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,937
United Kingdom
I prefer Square-Enix last gen. Had some real gems from them like Tactics Ogre remake, FFT re-release (first ever Europe release!), Front Mission DS, a load of DQ games on DS for those people that like those, Chrono Trigger DS (again, a first for those of us in Europe!), on the Western side you had a good variety of titles like Deus Ex's rebirth with Human Revolution, Sleeping Dogs, Kane & Lynch and on the publishing side, they published my favourite game last gen with NieR. This gen is just...okay, I mean Romancing SaGa 2 was a nice surprise and all, as was Nier: Automata existing in the first place and finding such success but aside from that eh...not as many titles as last gen.
 

Suzushiiro

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
515
Brooklyn, NY
Yeah, last gen was weird in that the Japanese industry almost entirely went for the two extremes- either they tried to keep up with the western juggernauts (be it in the console or mobile spaces) and failed miserably or they went the other way and doubled down on super-niche games that had little to no appeal outside of the otaku/weeaboo audience. It also didn't help that there was a big mismatch between the consoles that were popular in Japan vs. the consoles that were popular in the west.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,307
The Switch is another great platform to come out for single-player games, so we've got a lot of opportunities and we really do want to continue making single-player games!
hell yes. Keep em coming SE. Switch will probably get the best of their output.
 

Nephtes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,550
I agree with some of what he was saying about last gen misses with Japanese studios trying to mimic genres that Western developers had mastered by the beginning of the PS3 (I believe partially because the Japanese devs stayed out of that generation till the PS3 launched a year after the 360, giving Western devs a year advantage at working within the confines of the new generation, coupled with the trouble of developing for the PS3's Cell processor right out of the gate).

I like the concept of SE and other Japanese developers embracing their own style of game design and culture, but it seems to me having played all of FFXV, one aspect of game design I wish they'd embrace from Western developers is: how to do a proper UI.

The basic functionality of the systems in FFXV simply do not complement each other. Using the map in conjunction with the car in the game is maddening. Things that are simple in other open world style games like navigating the map, setting waypoints, fast traveling, etc. are overly complicated and un-intuitive.

More recently I've been playing Monster Hunter World(not a SquareEnix product of course) and even Final Fantasy XV's own Comrades mode and the systems for partying up with friends to complete objectives again, like the FFXV map UI , is overly complicated.
Compare this with something like Destiny that leverages tools built into the PSN and Xbox Live for basic friend accessibility as well as the ability to drop in and out seemlessly into online sessions.

Say what you will of the actual moment to moment gameplay of each game, there is a certain ease of use that recent Western made games have had over a number of their Japanese counterparts (or least the ones I've been playing recently).

Last 6 games played for Context:
Assassin's Creed Origins
Monster Hunter World
Final Fantasy XV
Overwatch
Dark Souls 3
Street Fighter V
 
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Koozek

Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
I agree with some of what he was saying about last gen misses with Japanese studios trying to mimic genres that Western developers had mastered by the beginning of the PS3 (I believe partially because the Japanese devs stayed out of that generation till the PS3 launched a year after the 360, giving Western devs a year advantage at working within the confines of the new generation, coupled with the trouble of developing for the PS3's Cell processor right out of the gate).

I like the concept of SE and other Japanese developers embracing their own style of game design and culture, but it seems to me having played all of FFXV, one aspect of game design I wish they'd embrace from Western developers is: how to do a proper UI.

The basic functionality of the systems in FFXV simply do not complement each other. Using the map in conjunction with the car in the game is maddening. Things that are simple in other open world style games like navigating the map, setting waypoints, fast traveling, etc. are overly complicated and un-intuitive.

More recently I've been playing Monster Hunter World(not a SquareEnix product of course) and even Final Fantasy XV's own Comrades mode and the systems for partying up with friends to complete objectives again, like the FFXV map UI , is overly complicated.
Compare this with something like Destiny that leverages tools built into the PSN and Xbox Live for basic friend accessibility as well as the ability to drop in and out seemlessly into online sessions.

Say what you will of the actual moment to moment gameplay of each game, there is a certain ease of use that recent Western made games have had over a number of their Japanese counterparts (or least the ones I've been playing recently).

Last 6 games played for Context:
Assassin's Creed Origins
Monster Hunter World
Final Fantasy XV
Overwatch
Dark Souls 3
Street Fighter V
Funny that you mention that. There are so many things that bug me about FFXV's UI, even more now that I beat AC:O.

As you said, things like fast-travelling are unnecessarily complicated. Like, you open the map, can move the cursor around like in any other game, but if you select a special spot and press X it doesn't ask you to fast-travel there like you would think, and instead pressing X actually opens the list of parking spots since there's a menu on the left side that is defaulted to "Parking Spots" when you open the map and now it moves your cursor all over the map to whatever parking spot is first in the list. If I want to fast-travel to a particular spot I have to open the map and select "Map" from that menu on the left first to be able to then select a spot to fast-travel with my cursor on the map. Why? Just let me open the map, select a spot, and press a button to fast-travel (maybe just map fast-travel to Triangle or something). Also, why not just let us fast-travel regardless of whether or not we're by our car or not. These are small issues, but they can add up and make everything less smooth. A lot would be solved by simple QoL changes.

And yeah, the lack of Party/Friends List features for matchmaking in the Comrades Multiplayer DLC, and all the unnecessary menus, cutscenes, and loading screens in between the already short missions that could've been easily streamlined you didn't have to go back to the city after every single mission and had a quick option to repeat or select another mission while the whole cooking cutscene happens in the background. And even the whole pre-mission camp is totally redundant since everybody already has prepared themselves in the city before picking a mission and everybody just quickly walks to grab food and then walks to the fire to start the mission.

I could go on and on after having played FFXV for so long :D
 

Quakeguy

Banned
Feb 3, 2018
938
Currently Square seems to be one of the worst companies in the gaming industry when it comes to management and keeping promises.

Is this the man responsible for it?
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Currently Square seems to be one of the worst companies in the gaming industry when it comes to management and keeping promises.

Is this the man responsible for it?

First off, rarely are one man is responsible for the failure of a large organisation, even if it's the leader's job to shoulder the blame and failure of the collective.

Secondly, 'management' and 'keeping promises' are very broad. You would get better answers if you're specific about what kinds of aspects that you find them poor in.
 
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Koozek

Koozek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,913
Currently Square seems to be one of the worst companies in the gaming industry when it comes to management and keeping promises.

Is this the man responsible for it?
Currently? How so? He's there since 2013 and had to clean up the mess. Seems like a good dude actually from interviews.

SE had one of its best fiscal years ever last year, btw. Their release schedule is stable and varied too with everything from AAA to AA and mobile. New Tomb Raider and KH3 this year. Two huge Marvel projects in works. FFVIIR hopefully next year. The only issue they had recently was the thing with IO Interactive last year and even then he let the studio keep the Hitman IP after the split, which is very unusual and a pretty nice move.


cHWkQYE.png



SE is fine currently.