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Oct 25, 2017
14,673
newest episode today was fun although it feels like the hype for the ISS Enterprise didnt end up amounting to much. however it's interesting that the prime universe now has (a version of) the og enterprise preserved.

at first i was wondering a bit why the post-kirk mirror enterprise still looks like the earlier pike-era enterprise (in fiction, obviously the real-world concerns are saving money/time) but then I remembered that even in TOS, the mirror enterprise was represented by the earlier pike design (which at the time was briefly represented by the "The Cage" model with the pointy nacelles) because the ship actually never received the pike>kirk refit in that universe. So everything checks out!

I expect there's going to be more with the ISS Enterprise. Burnam almost looks at the camera when she muses there must be quite a story to how this ship got here, wowzers. Especially since they didn't just blow it up at the end but took pains to deliver it back to HQ. I would be VERY interested in seeing an original Connie refit with 32nd century upgrades.

Elsewhere I've seen the frankly fantastic suggestion that a refit Enterprise could end up being the training ship in Starfleet Academy - saving a ton of money and soundstage space over building new sets just for that show.
well, there IS a section 31 movie coming up starring the terran emperor... perhaps the story will be told.
I'll take any excuse to revisit the SNW sets more, beautiful designs.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,056
Who was the voice of the ISS computer. I have a feeling it was Rod Roddenberry.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,056
Barnaby Carpenter
m.imdb.com

"Star Trek: Discovery" Mirrors (TV Episode 2024) - IMDb

"Star Trek: Discovery" Mirrors (TV Episode 2024) “Cast” credits
So much for my theory. Would have been nice

Look who is sitting across from the Ferengi bartender on Discovery.


IMG_4957.jpg
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,180
Love and relationships feels like a running theme this season (underneath the general romp/fetch quest fun). Michael breaking up with Book and then having semi second thoughts going back in time seeing him; Adira and Grey breaking up on Trill; latest episode giving me Stamets and Culber breaking up vibes (spirituality vs science)…
 

Jason Frost

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,810

View: https://imgur.com/a/viP3s2T

Observation about Stamets arc this season and how they might tie the premise of the show to the season.
His line in Season 1 always felt weird. Spores being the progenitors of panspermia (seeding life throughout the universe) ? I think they're going to say that the Progenitors used the spore dimension to seed the galaxy (or universe) with humanoid life. And this is what will cement Stamets legacy which seems to be something he really wants this season.

Wild guess, but I think Stamets will be or become a Progenitor at the end of the series.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,777
Man, DS9 just giving new trek all sorts of plot points.

The Breen thing was nice. I would absolutely love if it's discovered that their 32nd Century helmets are based on another Star Wars helmet.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,005
Honestly I assume the Enterprise was used so they could reuse the Strange New Worlds set.

I'm kind of with you on the episode, but there's a part of me that wants to be more generous? Like the biggest problem I had with the episode was that it felt very mechanical. It's an episode we needed at this juncture to fill in the blanks on some characters we've only recently gotten to know, but it's really obvious about the way it set up the pieces I guess. But that also feels like an unfair criticism because the story does need us to be a bit more invested in Moll and La'k, they're obviously not intended to just be moustache-twirlers and we needed an explanation as to why. Similarly we have to see Book navigate his relationship with Moll, and Rayner's redemption arc (not that he really needs one but hey that's where the show's going so whatever). So it's a crucial episode and arguably it gets the job done.

I dunno, maybe it's just a sign that I'm ready to be done with Discovery in general. Not that it's bad or anything, just that it's not doing that much for me this season. But hey, at least we get more Adam Jensen.

I can see it from that angle too... but La'k comes across as too much of a plot device with an ambiguous backstory that doesn't fill in enough blanks. Maybe they'll peel back more of the Breen stuff later on but we don't know enough about their culture, his circumstances or what was so different about him that led to his ostracization. Their love also feels like it's borne out of convenience moreso than anything else due to their circumstances. It would take Elias away but I would kill La'k off next episode and just focus on Moll's abandonment trauma. They kind of telegraphed where they're headed with the talk about second chances, Book's own absent father and the colony she wants to get to... where I'm betting some of mirror Enterprise crew also ended up.

Rayner is the MVP of this season IMO. They've done a decent job making him more empathetic without stripping away all of his previous character traits and I find him very entertaining heh.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,737
I can see it from that angle too... but La'k comes across as too much of a plot device with an ambiguous backstory that doesn't fill in enough blanks. Maybe they'll peel back more of the Breen stuff later on but we don't know enough about their culture, his circumstances or what was so different about him that led to his ostracization. Their love also feels like it's borne out of convenience moreso than anything else due to their circumstances. It would take Elias away but I would kill La'k off next episode and just focus on Moll's abandonment trauma. They kind of telegraphed where they're headed with the talk about second chances, Book's own absent father and the colony she wants to get to... where I'm betting some of mirror Enterprise crew also ended up.

Rayner is the MVP of this season IMO. They've done a decent job making him more empathetic without stripping away all of his previous character traits and I find him very entertaining heh.

You're not wrong about any of the above, though the whole love story angle feels really underbaked to me, I almost would rather have had no backstory at all. Killing La'k feels like the obvious thing to do, though, because it would push Moll away from the Federation and from Book, and it "feels" like the story needs the antagonists to stay out in the cold a bit longer (or not come in at all I guess). So I'd rather the show not kill him off, just because then it probably means they have something more interesting in mind.
 

StevieP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,294
After watching the latest episode, it's real sad that they finally understand everything that makes discovery great and are executing it every episode... And it's the last season that they can do it.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,737
I think this is the first episode of the season I've really liked. It definitely does continue that long-storied Trek tradition of ignoring the Prime Directive whenever it ceases to be convenient but I think here it doesn't feel like an afterthought like it did in, say, season 2. It seems to be part of the message of the episode and a more considered shift in philosophy that I think makes a certain amount of sense in today's geopolitical world, even if I don't think the question is by any means settled. I know we technically don't need the spoiler tags but since there are so few responses to the new episode so far:

It made me think about why the concept of the Prime Directive exists at all, and why the writers of every Star Trek show always see fit to find reasons to break it even when it seems like a good rule. I was trying to find examples of all the times breaking the Directive has come to bite them in the ass because it's been decades since I've seen some of these shows, I don't remember everything. But it turns out that a lot of the examples that show why the Prime Directive is necessary come from TOS. TNG has a few episodes like it too, but it also has episodes where people agonize about the Prime Directive, eventually decide to break it anyways, and... nothing much happens.

I think the episode in Discovery season 2 where Discovery breaks the Prime Directive to intervene on behalf of the Kelpians was a low point for the whole series because it felt like no one had bothered to even consider the ramifications of such obvious interference in two pre-warp cultures, even if one was an oppressor and one was oppressed. This episode might recast that decision as part of a more general philosophical shift that mirrors the way attitudes towards world powers like the United States have shifted over time. Because the show was, at least in part, set before most of the Star Trek shows we know, this shift doesn't really make a ton of sense in-universe, but as a contemporary take on the ethical dilemma of the Prime Directive it does at least make some sense to me.

Curious to see what others think about this, since I can see it souring people on the episode quite a bit.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
The best episode I can remember to explore the why's of a Prime Directive is probably the Orville:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJYCjayL8iY

Which isn't Star Trek, but it kinda counts in my book.

Yeah, although it's a bit of a cheat because it's all exposition... but the whole unintended consequences thing is pretty much laid out bare.

---

I feel like I'm mostly vibing with this season more than anything else. It seems very deliberate that they end each episode with a 'hook' but not with an explicit cliffhanger, which I guess is what they meant when they said it wasn't fully serialized. I'm enjoying it, but I'm not sure if I 'like' it like I would the other Trek shows. Certainly I think this is probably going to be the most rewatchable season at least.

I'm not really feeling the antagonists or anti-heroes or whatever you want to call them, because it just feels so trivial in the context of the fate of the galaxy. They want to save their own lives by letting the galaxy burn, which seems antithetical to what they're running away from in the first place. But at least it can't be worse than what they did with the Changelings in Picard I suppose.

That just means this episode could just focus on the problem and didn't have to deal with that, and honestly I think Culber's existential crisis is a more interesting framing device for discovering life changing technology than two star-crossed lovers on the run.

As for the episode itself, the one thing I felt didn't really connect was the whistling. It felt like the end with the song should have been whistled, to tie into that whole "group communication" thing that they seemingly set up. Instead it just ended up being an interesting curiosity that was used as a tag at the end.

Also I really don't know if all the legacy bridge crew actors have better gigs or something, but it's so weird that they took them out of the show entirely and introduced half of a new bridge crew. Maybe there's a reason, like they got rid of Nilsson so that they could have the cyborg lady back, but it feels weird when the two people who had spoken lines on the bridge would have been for Detmer and Ososekun (yes I'm trying to remember their names).
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,323
Also I really don't know if all the legacy bridge crew actors have better gigs or something, but it's so weird that they took them out of the show entirely and introduced half of a new bridge crew. Maybe there's a reason, like they got rid of Nilsson so that they could have the cyborg lady back, but it feels weird when the two people who had spoken lines on the bridge would have been for Detmer and Ososekun (yes I'm trying to remember their names).

I mean we can't even remember their names. I'm sure they jumped ship for something more memorable.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
I mean we can't even remember their names. I'm sure they jumped ship for something more memorable.
I guess it's not clear if they knew this was the final season when they broke out the season, but I wonder if they would have made more of an effort if they knew this was the end. Even letting us see them take the ISS Enterprise away would have been some kind of decent goodbye at least. Same with Nilsson leaving a tribble around as her final mention on the show.

I think this is the first episode of the season I've really liked. It definitely does continue that long-storied Trek tradition of ignoring the Prime Directive whenever it ceases to be convenient but I think here it doesn't feel like an afterthought like it did in, say, season 2. It seems to be part of the message of the episode and a more considered shift in philosophy that I think makes a certain amount of sense in today's geopolitical world, even if I don't think the question is by any means settled. I know we technically don't need the spoiler tags but since there are so few responses to the new episode so far:

It made me think about why the concept of the Prime Directive exists at all, and why the writers of every Star Trek show always see fit to find reasons to break it even when it seems like a good rule. I was trying to find examples of all the times breaking the Directive has come to bite them in the ass because it's been decades since I've seen some of these shows, I don't remember everything. But it turns out that a lot of the examples that show why the Prime Directive is necessary come from TOS. TNG has a few episodes like it too, but it also has episodes where people agonize about the Prime Directive, eventually decide to break it anyways, and... nothing much happens.

I think the episode in Discovery season 2 where Discovery breaks the Prime Directive to intervene on behalf of the Kelpians was a low point for the whole series because it felt like no one had bothered to even consider the ramifications of such obvious interference in two pre-warp cultures, even if one was an oppressor and one was oppressed. This episode might recast that decision as part of a more general philosophical shift that mirrors the way attitudes towards world powers like the United States have shifted over time. Because the show was, at least in part, set before most of the Star Trek shows we know, this shift doesn't really make a ton of sense in-universe, but as a contemporary take on the ethical dilemma of the Prime Directive it does at least make some sense to me.

Curious to see what others think about this, since I can see it souring people on the episode quite a bit.
I'm not sure if this is what they meant the Prime Directive to represent when it was first conceived, but you think about American and Russian interventionism of the cold war destroying societies and causing unintended consequences (bin Laden, Hamas, ISIS, etc.) and how it's almost never worked out well outside of Japan, Germany and *maybe* (half of) Korea. The Chinese basically dumping money into Africa and Oceana is the equivalent of that now, and it's probably going to cause just as much grief later on.

There's also a bigger question on whether or not interference is possible. Imagine if there was a large alien presence observing Earth and seeing the current events happening now. How would they intervene? On who's behalf? The one thing is that, for obvious reasons, no one can model actual geopolitics with hundreds of countries, religions, cultures, all trying to survive for a 50 minute TV show.

Maybe it's already been written, but there's probably an interesting story about benevolent aliens trying to fix Earth and how that's an impossible task. Thinking about how people resent things like affirmative action and "wokeness" now, I can't imagine what the world would be like if someone tried to make things fair for everyone on a global scale.
 
Last edited:
Nov 27, 2020
4,298
Rayner makes me sad there won't be a season six tbh

After watching the latest episode, it's real sad that they finally understand everything that makes discovery great and are executing it every episode... And it's the last season that they can do it.
I am feeling both these posts HARD. Rayner has injected some much needed rough around the edge-ness into the show. I always liked the Saru/Burnham dynamic, but Burnham/Rayner has been so much more fun.

And maybe it's just me…but most of these episodes have felt a touch more episodic than seasons past. Unlike previous seasons, where the story is basically a blur with no defined episodes, this season is much more defined. Every episode has had a clear throughline, even though they're still connected to the overall plot. It feels like they've finally refined their formula. Just in time for the show to end.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,782
DFW
After watching the latest episode, it's real sad that they finally understand everything that makes discovery great and are executing it every episode... And it's the last season that they can do it.
I agree with this too. The latest episode hit all the Trek notes for me, combined with father / child stuff, which always breaks me emotionally. Discovery is a show that's gotten better each season, although mentally I somehow conflate Seasons 3 and 4. Of course, that's because I only started watching a couple months ago.

I really like episodic Disco, probably more than "10-episode movie" Disco. It feels like the show's finally giving certain characters time to breathe, only it just highlights the absence of Detmer and Owo. I'm not going to comment on the size of the cast, because it's been shown that we have the same number of featured characters (they're just not all on the bridge), but it's just weird to introduce new characters in the final season. Maybe the actors just got roles elsewhere? Hope they show up in the finale at least: I really did like Owo.

I also loved in this episode how...

You knew Michael wouldn't hesitate to break the Prime Directive, but there was still sufficient tension because for several moments, it wasn't especially clear whether she'd succeed. I agree with other posts that it caused me to question the Prime Directive in its entirety and also wonder whether it's evolved over time -- every policy I've encountered in the military has evolved over time. And you've seen captains "lawyer" themselves out of violations constantly in every single Trek series.

But you're telling me that a diminished Federation, facing an existential threat in Season 3, didn't revisit the Prime Directive? Or that its adversaries haven't attempted to colonize or establish trading relationships with planets rich in necessary resources?

Then again, we've got Lower Decks, so do we get a statue of a deified Tilly through time-travel shenanigans, goddess of footraces and potsherds?
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
I will say, at least they raise the possibility of this being a bad thing and it could potentially start a religious war. The question then is whether or not Starfleet would have an obligation to intervene, or if that's also "fine" because they would have died out if they hadn't intervened in the first place.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,737
The funny thing is this episode actually features multiple potential violations going back centuries:
  • the initial installation of the weather towers (though you could argue this might not be a Federation act, since it's implied a specific species was responsible and perhaps they weren't a Federation member, or the act preceded the formation of the Federation, though I don't think the latter is true since this is all tied to that one researcher's clue and I'm pretty sure they worked on the towers);
  • the intent to fix the tower, which is arguably an intervention in the natural course of the planet and its civilization (but on the other hand could also be seen as making the best of a previous intervention on the planet);
  • Michael revealing herself to the father, which is the most obvious violation.
There is a real argument that says the planet came under the care of the Federation as soon as those towers were installed and thus every act from then on has been a sort of attempt to limit the damage of that violation, therefore everything's fine. But thinking about it that way also a) highlights just how messy all this intervention business can be; who put those towers there in the first place knowing that they'd need maintenance and not coming up with a plan to ensure that happened? (though the Burn might've fucked with those plans) and b) mirrors arguably well-intentioned attempts by real-life nations to intervene in the affairs of others that went awry.

I will say, at least they raise the possibility of this being a bad thing and it could potentially start a religious war. The question then is whether or not Starfleet would have an obligation to intervene, or if that's also "fine" because they would have died out if they hadn't intervened in the first place.

This was an interesting thing to consider as well. It could potentially start a religious war, but a lot seems to turn on exactly who Michael revealed herself to, and what kind of a person he is. So much turns on how he absorbs and processes all the information Michael, Tilly and Culber have given him, not only about the nature of the universe and their place in it, but the information on how to maintain the tower(s). I think the episode guides us to the conclusion that everything works out fine; he comes to his people with a revised religious dogma, one that doesn't demand ritual sacrifices, and he has powerful evidence in the form of long-overdue, drought-ending torrential rains. But even then, I can't imagine everyone just goes back to the way they were except for that one thing about their core religious beliefs. Do they go and fix the other towers, now that they know it's not the will of the gods that made them inoperable? If they do, do they succeed and expand their civilization, or fail and bring it to the brink of collapse? And that's one of the better possible branches of all this.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
The funny thing is this episode actually features multiple potential violations going back centuries:
  • the initial installation of the weather towers (though you could argue this might not be a Federation act, since it's implied a specific species was responsible and perhaps they weren't a Federation member, or the act preceded the formation of the Federation, though I don't think the latter is true since this is all tied to that one researcher's clue and I'm pretty sure they worked on the towers);
  • the intent to fix the tower, which is arguably an intervention in the natural course of the planet and its civilization (but on the other hand could also be seen as making the best of a previous intervention on the planet);
  • Michael revealing herself to the father, which is the most obvious violation.
There is a real argument that says the planet came under the care of the Federation as soon as those towers were installed and thus every act from then on has been a sort of attempt to limit the damage of that violation, therefore everything's fine. But thinking about it that way also a) highlights just how messy all this intervention business can be; who put those towers there in the first place knowing that they'd need maintenance and not coming up with a plan to ensure that happened? (though the Burn might've fucked with those plans) and b) mirrors arguably well-intentioned attempts by real-life nations to intervene in the affairs of others that went awry.

This actually reminded me of another idea I had to flip the antagonists. While I don't think the conflict in S4 worked out well stretched out across a full season, I do appreciate the fact that at least Booker has a very legitimate reason to want to act against the Federation and destroy the aliens. Instead of Breen love politics, they could have been up against Federation scientists or someone else who want to use the technology to intervene like the original scientist did on this planet, and thinks all life is worth saving and that it's ethically wrong to let people die because of a moral judgement that they are not ready to be 'saved'.

Rather than have Moll and L'ak completely absent from this episode, they could have done something similar to when Michael and Booker were forced to work together in S4 despite being on opposite sides, where the antagonist and the Discovery crew both recognize that these innocent people shouldn't die, but Michael has to struggle with the ethics of the Prime Directive rather than just have it be "paperwork" that she has to deal with.

Certainly violating the prime directive has happened several times before, but it's almost either a one off or a bad thing. But I feel like if they took the tact of the "eco terrorist" on TNG who blew herself up to prove that warp drive was dangerous and had a sustained antagonist who is has a defendable point of view and wants to get the Federation to understand that non-interference can be problematic... it'd be an interesting dichotomy at least.

This was an interesting thing to consider as well. It could potentially start a religious war, but a lot seems to turn on exactly who Michael revealed herself to, and what kind of a person he is. So much turns on how he absorbs and processes all the information Michael, Tilly and Culber have given him, not only about the nature of the universe and their place in it, but the information on how to maintain the tower(s). I think the episode guides us to the conclusion that everything works out fine; he comes to his people with a revised religious dogma, one that doesn't demand ritual sacrifices, and he has powerful evidence in the form of long-overdue, drought-ending torrential rains. But even then, I can't imagine everyone just goes back to the way they were except for that one thing about their core religious beliefs. Do they go and fix the other towers, now that they know it's not the will of the gods that made them inoperable? If they do, do they succeed and expand their civilization, or fail and bring it to the brink of collapse? And that's one of the better possible branches of all this.

The thing that it impossible to depict is that intersectionality really creates so many variations of thought that it's never really binary. Both in the religious and the skeptic communities, there are massive internal divisions and disagreements. Richard Dawkins turning out to be a Christian white supremacist is probably not something the skeptic community anticipated and there are certainly skeptics that would disagree with him, even if they overall share the goal of being anti-religion. Of course there are hundreds of versions of the monotheistic religions, let alone the other religions as well, which have been a source of massive strife even now.

I had actually been thinking about this more broadly because of RJC is currently releasing a retrospective on Stargate and as that show went on, it really becomes untenable that they would not use the technology they acquired to help the rest of the humanity or that this US team represented the views of humanity to aliens. They never really went there because, I get it, it's too real to actually sit down and think about how billions of people would react to the existence of aliens and magic technology that could solve all their problems.

I really do think there's probably a really interesting series of novels to be written about this idea and gaming it out, where a global society with thousands of different viewpoints all have to react to some kind of fundamental truth. It's easy when it's alien invaders and you show people with different flags on their military uniforms teaming up to upload virus to an alien computer while the President of the United States leads a squadron of bombers against a massive alien flagship... but what if the aliens were actually Starfleet? And they just want to introduce replicators to end poverty and cure all diseases with a simple vaccine? Would we still kill each other? Would we want to kill them? Thinking about even something as simple as a mask caused so much strife in the last few years, I could only imagine how people would lose their minds if there was actual impactful technology that could change our lives.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
Err, episode 7 was accidentally released in Canada for a few hours yesterday and is "out there" now in case you want to avoid spoilers.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,391
newest episode today was fun although it feels like the hype for the ISS Enterprise didnt end up amounting to much. however it's interesting that the prime universe now has (a version of) the og enterprise preserved.

at first i was wondering a bit why the post-kirk mirror enterprise still looks like the earlier pike-era enterprise (in fiction, obviously the real-world concerns are saving money/time) but then I remembered that even in TOS, the mirror enterprise was represented by the earlier pike design (which at the time was briefly represented by the "The Cage" model with the pointy nacelles) because the ship actually never received the pike>kirk refit in that universe. So everything checks out!


well, there IS a section 31 movie coming up starring the terran emperor... perhaps the story will be told.
I'll take any excuse to revisit the SNW sets more, beautiful designs.
I would place dollarpounds on either SNW or S31 having something to do with the ISS Enterprise.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
Went to watch a performance of Hedda Gabler and I couldn't remember where I recognized one of the actors from... turns out it was the dude who played Tarka in S4.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,005
The funny thing is this episode actually features multiple potential violations going back centuries:
  • the initial installation of the weather towers (though you could argue this might not be a Federation act, since it's implied a specific species was responsible and perhaps they weren't a Federation member, or the act preceded the formation of the Federation, though I don't think the latter is true since this is all tied to that one researcher's clue and I'm pretty sure they worked on the towers);
  • the intent to fix the tower, which is arguably an intervention in the natural course of the planet and its civilization (but on the other hand could also be seen as making the best of a previous intervention on the planet);
  • Michael revealing herself to the father, which is the most obvious violation.
There is a real argument that says the planet came under the care of the Federation as soon as those towers were installed and thus every act from then on has been a sort of attempt to limit the damage of that violation, therefore everything's fine. But thinking about it that way also a) highlights just how messy all this intervention business can be; who put those towers there in the first place knowing that they'd need maintenance and not coming up with a plan to ensure that happened? (though the Burn might've fucked with those plans) and b) mirrors arguably well-intentioned attempts by real-life nations to intervene in the affairs of others that went awry.

The Denobulans were the species that built the weather towers but I'm unclear whether their intervention on Halem'no preceded their joining of the Federation or if this transpired after the fact. Considering the Denobulan's social structure and the integral component genetic engineering played in their society, it wouldn't surprise me if they never formally joined the Federation but I can't recall if this is ever explicitly established one way or the other. But even assuming they would have, the ambiguity doesn't really matter I suppose considering General Order One is somewhat vague as to whether the non-intervention regulation only applies to Starfleet personnel or all Federation citizens. This is another thing Star Trek has done a poor job of establishing because Data in the TNG episode where a freighter crashed on that matriarchal planet specifically says that Federation civilians aren't bound by the Prime Directive. Of course this could all just be semantics and doesn't really matter.

You touched on all the philosophical and ethical elements that make episodes centered around implications tied to the Prime Directive work so well but I do have a couple issues with how the narrative in this one is framed. The Denobulans, it can be assumed, constructed the towers with the intention of ensuring that Halem society would be preserved and be given additional time to advance to the point where they were able to discover and maintain the towers themselves. I think it would've worked better, for me at least, if Michael's decision to violate the Prime Directive wasn't effectuated because of Tilly being put in harm's way (which was way too telegraphed) but strictly revolved around the initial Denobulan intervention formatively shaping their religious practices in an unintended manner. There's a really interesting dichotomy explored in this episode between science and faith with Culber's spiritual awakening being contrasted against the Halem society's belief system being upended by science that isn't fully capitalized on for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,005
And they just want to introduce replicators to end poverty and cure all diseases with a simple vaccine? Would we still kill each other? Would we want to kill them? Thinking about even something as simple as a mask caused so much strife in the last few years, I could only imagine how people would lose their minds if there was actual impactful technology that could change our lives.

An overly simplistic analogy here but all we have to do is look at white America's obsession with biting off their nose to spite their face when it comes to denying themselves any sort of policy that would improve their existences just because Black and Brown people would benefit too. Unfortunately the structures that our society is formed around, be it capitalism or white supremacy, are intended to ensure those that have everything continue to have everything and those who have been subjugated continue to remain subjugated.
So your hypothetical putting an end to that would, I assume, experience vicious pushback from those in power that are perfectly happy with how much they already profit off of the status quo.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
An overly simplistic analogy here but all we have to do is look at white America's obsession with biting off their nose to spite their face when it comes to denying themselves any sort of policy that would improve their existences just because Black and Brown people would benefit too. Unfortunately the structures that our society is formed around, be it capitalism or white supremacy, are intended to ensure those that have everything continue to have everything and those who have been subjugated continue to remain subjugated.
So your hypothetical putting an end to that would, I assume, experience vicious pushback from those in power that are perfectly happy with how much they already profit off of the status quo.
There was that dumb episode of TNG where the American capitalist is angry at the socialist utopia of the 24th century, although I can't remember if he was won over by it or not.

But yeah, it'd be easy to suggest that the society would be fine with this revelation that their entire existence has been a lie and that they're ready to move past their old beliefs. They also went out of their way to basically create a "communal" society that is flat, so combined with that character Michael talks about, you're supposed to assume it all goes well. But it's definitely a lot of wishful thinking or preconditions required for that to happen at least.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,355
I would place dollarpounds on either SNW or S31 having something to do with the ISS Enterprise.
I think the poster here who speculated that the iss enterprise will be the training vessel for Starfleet academy is right on.

Tilly and Michael 's conversation about the academy felt like hints in that direction. Students are bored and need action? How about a snazzy retrofit of everyone's favorite starship?
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
I think the poster here who speculated that the iss enterprise will be the training vessel for Starfleet academy is right on.

Tilly and Michael 's conversation about the academy felt like hints in that direction. Students are bored and need action? How about a snazzy retrofit of everyone's favorite starship?
It's weird though. I know that the gap between the year 2000 and 1000 is much wider than the gap between 3200 and 2200 as depicted on the show (warp somehow still being the main form of travel), but it seems strange to take what would be the equivalent of a wooden musuem ship and try to bring it up to modern standards rather than just build a new ship entirely. Discovery makes sense since it (still) is the only ship with the spore drive, but a standard ship of that era?
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,298
It's weird though. I know that the gap between the year 2000 and 1000 is much wider than the gap between 3200 and 2200 as depicted on the show (warp somehow still being the main form of travel), but it seems strange to take what would be the equivalent of a wooden musuem ship and try to bring it up to modern standards rather than just build a new ship entirely. Discovery makes sense since it (still) is the only ship with the spore drive, but a standard ship of that era?
It's really stretching things if that's the direction they go for Starfleet Academy…

But, maybe they're some in universe explanations they can pull out. I can buy that the Burn would have caused a slow-down or even regression in technological innovation. And we know that any ship that had an active warp core was destroyed in the Burn, so Starfleet may be tiny compared to what we saw on other shows. A spaceworthy ship to dedicate as a training vessel might be really rare.

Granted…all that is really loose justification for it though. 😂
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
I guess it could be like Star Wars where it's like 5000 years between the Old Republic and the movies and everything looks exactly the same? Like technology just "ends" because they perfected everything already.
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,430
I totally think we'll never see the ISS Enterprise again, and that's fine. But I could also see somebody in a production meeting get excited about using the same sets for two different shows for massive cost savings. It'd be kinda disappointing as a viewer who'd like to see something different, and in-universe it's already kinda goofy that they quickly upgraded Discovery's 930 year old tech to make it the pride of the fleet.

We also know that they're building large sets for Academy. And it's totally possible that if they build any 'starship' sets it'll actually just be the academy simulator or something. Giving the cadets and training ship could be a season 2 thing.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,298
I totally think we'll never see the ISS Enterprise again, and that's fine. But I could also see somebody in a production meeting get excited about using the same sets for two different shows for massive cost savings. It'd be kinda disappointing as a viewer who'd like to see something different, and in-universe it's already kinda goofy that they quickly upgraded Discovery's 930 year old tech to make it the pride of the fleet.

We also know that they're building large sets for Academy. And it's totally possible that if they build any 'starship' sets it'll actually just be the academy simulator or something. Giving the cadets and training ship could be a season 2 thing.
They won't resist doing the Kobayashi Maru. And they'll pull the new Enterprise-D set out to do it. Basically Prodigy's KM scene, but live action. Lol
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,284
I'll always think of him as "the dude who played Errinwright in The Expanse."
Yeah I saw that he was in that too although I admittedly my memories of the show outside of the main cast have kind of faded in recent memory.

It was just weird seeing him act and I just kept thinking that I recognized him from somewhere but no idea where. I know the Toronto acting scene is probably different from NY or LA, but it's still a bit odd to see someone who does TV act in a community theater. It was a good production at least.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,685
Really enjoyed the latest episode, with the whistlers and the secrete towers.

Like the rest (most) of you, I've also enjoyed this season the most, even if it hasn't wowed me like SNW or other shows. So far, it's been good, but not great. But with Disco, that's probably great in and of itself.

Sad they finally managed to find a good balanced between Disco's attempts at serialization and the episodic Trek formula but it's the last season.

One nitpick is that awful quarry set they used for the Trill episode. The lighting, the obvious small size of the set, making it seem like the search for the relic took hours when it was obvious they were just going around in circles, all of it was bad.

They couldn't go to the forest nearby? Just awful. Took us (me and bf) right out of the episode and couldn't enjoy most of that part. Really CW quality production there. Contrast with the rest of the season.

Also, I don't enjoy most of the Culbert moments on the show, so that didn't help...
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,737
I totally think we'll never see the ISS Enterprise again, and that's fine. But I could also see somebody in a production meeting get excited about using the same sets for two different shows for massive cost savings. It'd be kinda disappointing as a viewer who'd like to see something different, and in-universe it's already kinda goofy that they quickly upgraded Discovery's 930 year old tech to make it the pride of the fleet.

We also know that they're building large sets for Academy. And it's totally possible that if they build any 'starship' sets it'll actually just be the academy simulator or something. Giving the cadets and training ship could be a season 2 thing.

I tend to agree, I think it's a bit too much to ask of audiences to accept two Star Trek shows (soon to be the ONLY live-action Trek shows) reusing the same sets and unless it's a situation where Starfleet Academy literally couldn't be made without this budgetary concession, I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to seriously entertain the idea.

Dressing up the sets so that they look quite different despite being the same bones, THAT is something I could see them doing and it would be very in keeping with Star Trek tradition if I remember correctly. But you don't need (and probably don't want) the excuse of "oh yeah we're on the ISS Enterprise" to do something like that.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,298
I tend to agree, I think it's a bit too much to ask of audiences to accept two Star Trek shows (soon to be the ONLY live-action Trek shows) reusing the same sets and unless it's a situation where Starfleet Academy literally couldn't be made without this budgetary concession, I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to seriously entertain the idea.

Dressing up the sets so that they look quite different despite being the same bones, THAT is something I could see them doing and it would be very in keeping with Star Trek tradition if I remember correctly. But you don't need (and probably don't want) the excuse of "oh yeah we're on the ISS Enterprise" to do something like that.
I remember back in the 90s being excited to see sets from the other shows make appearances. Like the runabouts on TNG, the Voyager sets on DS9 to represent another Intrepid Class, that sort of thing. It made the universe actually feel a bit more expansive and lived in, even if it was a cost saving measure.

That said, since the current shows take place in wildly different time frames it would make things feel smaller and "cheaper" to do it now.
 

StevieP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,294
I remember back in the 90s being excited to see sets from the other shows make appearances. Like the runabouts on TNG, the Voyager sets on DS9 to represent another Intrepid Class, that sort of thing. It made the universe actually feel a bit more expansive and lived in, even if it was a cost saving measure.

That said, since the current shows take place in wildly different time frames it would make things feel smaller and "cheaper" to do it now.

SNW is shot at CBS Mississauga (30 mins from Toronto) where the enterprise sets are for SNW. Discovery, Section 31 and soon Academy are shot on the Star Trek stage at Pinewood Toronto. Presumably they've torn out some of the disco sets (and kept others, like the federation stage) to make room for Academy.
 

FizzMino

Shinra Employee
Member
Sep 15, 2022
3,191
Colorado, USA
The higher budget / lower episode counts really makes going to other planets so much cooler in these new shows.

I love me some old trek, but the number of future civilizations living in caves and adobe buildings was always hillarious.

This planet was so cool looking and I loved the civilization using long range whistles and such....really felt like it could have been a real place.