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firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,222
thank the Stars you're not the president the federation wouldn't survive for very long 😛

This is in the charter that all the planets agreeing to be in the Federation are supposed to believe in lol

"We the lifeforms of the United Federation of Planets determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, and to reaffirm faith in the fundamental rights of sentient beings, in the dignity and worth of all lifeforms, in the equal rights of members of planetary systems large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of interstellar law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of living on all worlds, and for these ends, to practice toleration and live together in peace with one another, and to unite our strength to maintain interstellar peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institutions of methods, that weapons of destruction shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ interstellar resources for the promotion..."

I guess we can say that the Charter is about as worthless as the Bill of Rights or any other American historical founding document and doesn't reflect reality though. But I'm also coming around to the idea there's something interesting in the idea that the Federation is full of selfish people who, when faced with the prospect of giving up territory or resources, is willing to throw out the pretty words of a peace treaty signed hundreds of years ago.
 
OP
OP
Spectromixer

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,678
USA
If I ever see the words "Section 31" ever again, it'll be too soon. In a show where the main Federation characters are making ethically dubious choices, it was necessary to introduce nefarious Federation people making unequivocally bad choices, as a contrast to the main characters. But in everything beyond DS9, it's just this unimaginative excuse for bad people to do bad things. Do what the DS9 writers did and come up with something new.

you do realize Section 31 is getting a spinoff?
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
you do realize Section 31 is getting a spinoff?

I honestly liked Section 31 when it was first introduced and still think it is a cool concept. ST needs to grow and develop. Even before there was a nefarious spy agency in the Federation, you still had unscrupulous people in power using it to serve their own interests.

And I love Michelle Yeoh and I think she is going to be great in that role.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
If they make the regular federation look bad, Space Hitler won't look as bad by comparison.

"She committed multiple counts of genocide"
"Yeah but the Federation almost did the same thing letting the Romulans die after promising help".
"She's racist"
"So are some of the Federation worlds"
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
This is in the charter that all the planets agreeing to be in the Federation are supposed to believe in lol



I guess we can say that the Charter is about as worthless as the Bill of Rights or any other American historical founding document and doesn't reflect reality though. But I'm also coming around to the idea there's something interesting in the idea that the Federation is full of selfish people who, when faced with the prospect of giving up territory or resources, is willing to throw out the pretty words of a peace treaty signed hundreds of years ago.

Given the obvious intention in parallels, it's basically as if, in response to the refugee crisis, one or two EU member states actually threatened to withdraw over it, rather than just gum up the works. While part of the parallel is meant to be Brexit, in that situation the UK voted to leave of its own accord, rather than in exchange for some kind of leverage. Then again, that was partly because that had already been used to get various concessions to Cameron and that still wasn't enough for the British public that voted.

Like, that sort of thing could potentially work if Discovery wanted to go with it - that numerous states in the Federation only agreed to their obligations as member states so long as they never actually had to do them. But the moment they were called on to, you know, do what they agreed to, many simply shrugged and left. It's easy to say you'll be the best people ever so long as it's just words on paper.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
I think it would be difficult to depict a cynical, everybody is selfish way of things while still having the technology present in the Star Trek universe. The tech seen would radically disintegrate the current human identity. There may not even be selves as we know them after centuries of what would be radical upheavals in our psychological makeup. Subjectivity could be redefined if not eliminated as a way of common being. Consider it this way - how we are now isn't a guarantee into the future. There's no immutable human nature. As we've discovered through studies of the brain, the mind is plastic and with a lot of external conditions changing, I can't really see us being who we are now, forever. It doesn't mean we'll change into angels or something, but when you could experience almost anything via a holo-deck or if objects lose all meaning, then how we perceive reality would change in ways that are hard to imagine.

It would be nearly impossible for people to hold onto mentalities or ways of being that remained like ours now. The changes that would occur would be below anyones ability to resist as they'd be too widespread and ingrained, there wouldn't be choice involved, it would just happen.

The logical consequence of technology like Replicators and Holodecks is probably something approaching humans developing into some weird buddhist like psyche. People would have little attachment to material thingness and would probably only be chiefly concerned with their safety and their relationships with others. It would be like everyone lives a somewhat ascetic lifestyle and they'd do things out of connections to others, like Sisko's father and his restaurant. Perhaps people would generally be more contemplative than reactive. With safety, I can imagine people changing in such a way that they'd be more at peace with the transience of living. Although with Star Trek medical technology, people should be almost functionally immortal anyway, I suppose. Especially after Voyager brought Borg nano-probe technology back. Even without that, they have dermal regenerators, which even if it's always been depicted as trivial is actually insane technology. If you can instantly regenerate tissue to the point where it is basically like it was never damaged at all, then I think you could do some pretty crazy stuff beyond that.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,628
Vash still believed in material things. She was a thief who sold ancient artifacts on the black market.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
I think it would be difficult to depict a cynical, everybody is selfish way of things while still having the technology present in the Star Trek universe. The tech seen would radically disintegrate the current human identity. There may not even be selves as we know them after centuries of what would be radical upheavals in our psychological makeup. Subjectivity could be redefined if not eliminated as a way of common being. Consider it this way - how we are now isn't a guarantee into the future. There's no immutable human nature. As we've discovered through studies of the brain, the mind is plastic and with a lot of external conditions changing, I can't really see us being who we are now, forever. It doesn't mean we'll change into angels or something, but when you could experience almost anything via a holo-deck or if objects lose all meaning, then how we perceive reality would change in ways that are hard to imagine.

It would be nearly impossible for people to hold onto mentalities or ways of being that remained like ours now. The changes that would occur would be below anyones ability to resist as they'd be too widespread and ingrained, there wouldn't be choice involved, it would just happen.

The logical consequence of technology like Replicators and Holodecks is probably something approaching humans developing into some weird buddhist like psyche. People would have little attachment to material thingness and would probably only be chiefly concerned with their safety and their relationships with others. It would be like everyone lives a somewhat ascetic lifestyle and they'd do things out of connections to others, like Sisko's father and his restaurant. Perhaps people would generally be more contemplative than reactive. With safety, I can imagine people changing in such a way that they'd be more at peace with the transience of living. Although with Star Trek medical technology, people should be almost functionally immortal anyway, I suppose. Especially after Voyager brought Borg nano-probe technology back. Even without that, they have dermal regenerators, which even if it's always been depicted as trivial is actually insane technology. If you can instantly regenerate tissue to the point where it is basically like it was never damaged at all, then I think you could do some pretty crazy stuff beyond that.

If you wanna get speculative about it, such things might not necessarily lead to positive ends. If 'objects' lose all meaning, then the appeal of having made things - that is, events - 'actually' happen, rather than in some simulation built around ensuring you succeed, potentially increases; to be of meaning, even if that meaning is derived from harm. Meanwhile, that the state of regenerative technology is so high may lead to greater dehumanisation - if a person can be restored from near-death with negligible issue, what does it matter if you break their arm or bloody their nose? This potential state of being - this prosperity - is itself an object, as such, that they may desire to be protected from - real or imagined - threats against it. This is readily manifest in many groups in real life; the belief that 'our' prosperity is ours, and these Others will steal it from us if we let them. So they must be cast out, whether from our dominion or from this life.

That is not to say I definitively think - and certainly do not hope - that such is the way we would go. But it's easily within the realm of possibility for me. Change is possible, but definitive. The usage of technology and abundance for betterment, rather than exploitation, is not self-evident.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
I'm sure it'll fully leverage the advantages of the IP and enhance the visibility of the streaming platform while contributing to increased shareholder value.

tenor.gif
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
If you wanna get speculative about it, such things might not necessarily lead to positive ends. If 'objects' lose all meaning, then the appeal of having made things - that is, events - 'actually' happen, rather than in some simulation built around ensuring you succeed, potentially increases; to be of meaning, even if that meaning is derived from harm. Meanwhile, that the state of regenerative technology is so high may lead to greater dehumanisation - if a person can be restored from near-death with negligible issue, what does it matter if you break their arm or bloody their nose? This potential state of being - this prosperity - is itself an object, as such, that they may desire to be protected from - real or imagined - threats against it. This is readily manifest in many groups in real life; the belief that 'our' prosperity is ours, and these Others will steal it from us if we let them. So they must be cast out, whether from our dominion or from this life.

That is not to say I definitively think - and certainly do not hope - that such is the way we would go. But it's easily within the realm of possibility for me. Change is possible, but definitive. The usage of technology and abundance for betterment, rather than exploitation, is not self-evident.
I think the 'ours-ness' you're describing would probably be among the early casualties of what this kind of technology could do to the human. Or, otherness as a thing would fade away not so much out of enlightenment but from identity as a subjectivity perhaps no longer being very prominent. In a sense, the borg might be something like a logical out come although not so much with creepy cyborg zombies. It'd be like the borg in that there would maybe be no more 'I' in how people experience subjectivity and similarly they form more of a we state of mind.

It may seem horrific in a way now to think of losing the individuality we're accustomed to in our self perception, but for people who have for centuries been changing I would imagine it would be just a s natural to them as our way is to us. It may be like each person was an individuated we.

Speaking of which, I hope they really explore Seven's character now and don't just do the same ellipses of 'she's different now because time passed'. I'd be more interested in a Seven that is still struggling with contradictory or almost paradoxical elements of her personality. I don't want the writers to just be like she's a pretty normal human now because she's been hanging out with humans over the years.

Vash still believed in material things. She was a thief who sold ancient artifacts on the black market.
Star Trek has been such a weird mix of wow look at all this insane society altering technology and oh also here's some dumb schlock that makes no sense in context.

It's like finding a Genie in a lamp and being like 'nah I'd prefer to work minimum wage'
 
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firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,222
The other thing is that Q exists and there are godlike beings who can travel anywhere, anytime, and make anything appear out of nothing (presumably defying entropy) which also renders everything meaningless as well. lol
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
I think the 'ours-ness' you're describing would probably be among the early casualties of what this kind of technology could do to the human. Or, otherness as a thing would fade away not so much out of enlightenment but from identity as a subjectivity perhaps no longer being very prominent. IN a sense, the borg might be something like a logical out come although not so much with creepy cyborg zombies. It'd be like the borg in that there would maybe be no more 'I' in how people experience subjectivity and similarly they form more of a we state of mind.

It may seem horrific in a way now to think of losing the individuality we're accustomed to in our self perception, but for people who have for centuries been changing I would imagine it would be just a s natural to them as our way is to us. It may be like each person was an individuated we.

Speaking of which, I hope they really explore Seven's character now and don't just do the same ellipses of 'she's different now because time passed'. I'd be more interested in a Seven that is still struggling with contradictory or almost paradoxical elements of her personality. I don't want the writers to just be like she's a pretty normal human now because she's been hanging out with humans over the years.

That only inherently works so long as there is a total and totally unified collective though, which... admittedly does potentially tie into the Borg, yes, particularly in the earlier depictions where they didn't automatically care about outsiders unless they saw there was something of value they felt to be added.

But the belief that such technology and capacity of resources would inherently lead to a loss of centred self-being, and the consequences of that framework, rather than that it could be used for such if a society that had already sufficiently shifted framework agreed to such (or those with power to implement it in this fashion actually did so), is what I call into question. Even now we have the technical means to resolve a number of issues, but previous systems and ideologies prevent the implementation of such. See: US healthcare, world hunger, housing, so on. So, even with replicators and dermal regenerators, such a divergent shift from current day cultural behaviours - or bad habits, I suppose - is not guaranteed.

Now, admittedly the current crop of Trek writers are leaning on this even harder than previous ones, to the point I'd wonder if they expect any kind of cultural shift from current day, vaguely-'western' civilisation. Like, TNG could get cringe about it sometimes, but it did nevertheless - particularly for its first few seasons, which might explain in part why later Trek moved away from such, as associated baggage - make a specific emphasis of answering what might have changed, both big and small. Talking about 20th century pop culture and presumptions as 'ancient' may be weird to us as a viewer, but it's the equivalent of discussing the 16th century for us; sure 'ancient' isn't the right word, but there's nevertheless at least some difference worth remarking upon, and it would seem distant. While I don't necessarily agree on what kind of change might come from the kind of civilisation we see in this franchise, it is nevertheless apparent - unless later content countenances this - how little the writers seem to think there would be.

Taco Tuesdays, anyone?

Also, agreed on Seven, especially given who's gonna be opposite. Coming to terms with post-Borg life was a long process for Picard, and Seven didn't have quite so clean a disconnect - whether in events or her physical state - as Picard did. Hell, most of her life until she met the Voyager crew, she simply was part of the collective. Even twenty years on, that feels like that should have some lingering, unwanted impact.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
I think it would be difficult to depict a cynical, everybody is selfish way of things while still having the technology present in the Star Trek universe. The tech seen would radically disintegrate the current human identity. There may not even be selves as we know them after centuries of what would be radical upheavals in our psychological makeup. Subjectivity could be redefined if not eliminated as a way of common being. Consider it this way - how we are now isn't a guarantee into the future. There's no immutable human nature. As we've discovered through studies of the brain, the mind is plastic and with a lot of external conditions changing, I can't really see us being who we are now, forever. It doesn't mean we'll change into angels or something, but when you could experience almost anything via a holo-deck or if objects lose all meaning, then how we perceive reality would change in ways that are hard to imagine.

It would be nearly impossible for people to hold onto mentalities or ways of being that remained like ours now. The changes that would occur would be below anyones ability to resist as they'd be too widespread and ingrained, there wouldn't be choice involved, it would just happen.

The logical consequence of technology like Replicators and Holodecks is probably something approaching humans developing into some weird buddhist like psyche. People would have little attachment to material thingness and would probably only be chiefly concerned with their safety and their relationships with others. It would be like everyone lives a somewhat ascetic lifestyle and they'd do things out of connections to others, like Sisko's father and his restaurant. Perhaps people would generally be more contemplative than reactive. With safety, I can imagine people changing in such a way that they'd be more at peace with the transience of living. Although with Star Trek medical technology, people should be almost functionally immortal anyway, I suppose. Especially after Voyager brought Borg nano-probe technology back. Even without that, they have dermal regenerators, which even if it's always been depicted as trivial is actually insane technology. If you can instantly regenerate tissue to the point where it is basically like it was never damaged at all, then I think you could do some pretty crazy stuff beyond that.

Tech like that SHOULD make us better people, but, well, the internet, cellphones, computers and automation were going to have us live as the Jetsons as well, so I don't know if we can predict correctly what the human condition would be like with Trek tech in the real world.

I don't think we can get angry if a work of fiction doesn't agree with all that tech making us better automatically (which was sort of Q's point?) Maybe over the centuries, but the Federation is relatively young even by the time of Picard. It's been around for less time than the United States right now.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Except
Daniels showed us that the Federation was thriving in the 31st century, yet somehow ~80 years later its a rump state. There is more going on with Discovery season 3 than we think.

Disco S3 is going to take place by the end of the 32nd century in 3187, Daniels was born at the beginning of the 31st, and he was 30-ish?

It's a bit more than 150 years after Daniels says the Federation is still "thriving". Enough for a cycle of decay and rebirth to be credible and kind of expected.

And basically the plot of Bryan Singer's Star Trek: Federation proposed series.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
My point isn't so much about these technologies making us better in a moral sense, but in that by fundamentally altering or even destroying our psychology of desire then so goes what we now call the ego. This process probably wouldn't be able to be controlled in the long run by any special interest as the dissemination would get out of hand really fast. Like say corporations tried to hoard or tightly control replicator tech. All it would take is one person to leak or steal and start using it to replicate more replicators and it's a huge chain reaction from there. Sure, there would probably be turmoil for a time and maybe some jerk would be like 'if I can't control it nobody gets it' and nukes everything. But if the proliferation of replicator technology just exponentially kept on then it would basically destroy our contemporary psychology of desire and selfhood. With those aspects of who we are lessened to such a degree, if not outright vanished, I think it would be difficult for a sense of otherness to arise.

Replicators are like the ultimate wrench thrown into Concepts like Nietzche's will to power or Gilles Deleuze's Desiring Production. If, as they consider, life is defined by pleasurably appropriating what is outside of oneself and incorporating it into that self then replicators just mess that whole notion up. That pleasure, or will or whatever would I'm guessing dissipate as what lies outside of us as objects would begin to be more same than different.

Also, agreed on Seven, especially given who's gonna be opposite. Coming to terms with post-Borg life was a long process for Picard, and Seven didn't have quite so clean a disconnect - whether in events or her physical state - as Picard did. Hell, most of her life until she met the Voyager crew, she simply was part of the collective. Even twenty years on, that feels like that should have some lingering, unwanted impact.
I actually would like to see them try to depict a Seven that doesn't necessarily want to be a normal human and has come to think of herself as different and she feels okay but conflicted about it. It could be a good fit with why she's a ranger and working in a relatively isolated manner. Maybe she struggled with fitting into society at large after Voyager, not because she hated her borg aspects but because she thought of them as an authentic part of who she is and couldn't find a way to integrate into society because of it. The show has told us that ex borg aren't looked on very well so that could be part of it.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
I actually would like to see them try to depict a Seven that doesn't necessarily want to be a normal human and has come to think of herself as different and she feels okay but conflicted about it. It could be a good fit with why she's a ranger and working in a relatively isolated manner. Maybe she struggled with fitting into society at large after Voyager, not because she hated her borg aspects but because she thought of them as an authentic part of who she is and couldn't find a way to integrate into society because of it. The show has told us that ex borg aren't looked on very well so that could be part of it.

Would make sense. Like, even if it's not something she necessarily likes about herself, it can be something she's not comfortable getting rid of. Like, sure, she could remove the implants, but it's not like where it was for Picard where it was three days of hell and then he went back to who he was. She was literally a child before all this. What identity she has developed since becoming separated from the collective was through being... well, 'Seven of Nine', on Voyager. An experience in which she gained so much, as much as she may have had difficulties.

Why take that step into something else, when at least she knows this?
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
Would make sense. Like, even if it's not something she necessarily likes about herself, it can be something she's not comfortable getting rid of. Like, sure, she could remove the implants, but it's not like where it was for Picard where it was three days of hell and then he went back to who he was. She was literally a child before all this. What identity she has developed since becoming separated from the collective was through being... well, 'Seven of Nine', on Voyager. An experience in which she gained so much, as much as she may have had difficulties.

Why take that step into something else, when at least she knows this?
Yeah, and I could also imagine that since the people of Voyager were pretty respectful and accepting of her despite her personality being different at the time, she may not want to lose that part of herself because she has such love for that time in her life and still for the friends she made. After Voyager, she may have experienced a less welcoming reception in society and not wanting to just force herself to be like everyone else, she decided to live in a more solitary way.

So I hope we still see some vestiges of that terse, 'that's irrelevant' type of borg personality, because it would be more interesting than just having the 'time passed' now she's different and more like a 'normal' human now.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
Yeah, and I could also imagine that since the people of Voyager were pretty respectful and accepting of her despite her personality being different at the time, she may not want to lose that part of herself because she has such love for that time in her life and still for the friends she made. After Voyager, she may have experienced a less welcoming reception in society and not wanting to just force herself to be like everyone else, she decided to live in a more solitary way.

So I hope we still see some vestiges of that terse, 'that's irrelevant' type of borg personality, because it would be more interesting than just having the 'time passed' now she's different and more like a 'normal' human now.

There's touches of it in Hugh's depiction, though I feel like Jeri Ryan would, if she wanted, have more freedom (and power in her contract) to nix that so it'll be curious to see.

Plus honestly, she'll be the litmus test for how much Picard actually acknowledges the other shows. Not just in terms of lore references - 'Why, she's Seven of Nine from Voyager!' - but in following through on themes and character ideas from those series. Take the holograms issue, for example: Voyager was the show that had a holographic doctor who was not only a recurring member of the cast, but proceeded to explore the whole 'to what extent can a program be a person' concept as well. With all the hemming and hawing over 'synths', it would be weird to bring a member of Voyager's crew onboard without at least acknowledging how events may have impacted the Doctor, or his kind. But it's quite possible that writers could miss that opportunity if their chief concern is in bringing over Seven as someone else who just happened to be former Borg.
 
I'd actually wondered before if Seven might have experienced some difficulty due to her status as an icon of Borg survivorship. It was mentioned in Voyager that Seven's mere existence, long before returning to the Alpha Quadrant, had become a focal point of people who had lost someone to Borg assimilation.

I get the impression that Picard, for all his fame, might not be regarded by the public in the same way. He was attacked by the Borg, "injured", and rescued a short while later. Seven was taken as a child, and represents the long-lost family member returning against all odds. Might have been a lot of pressure put upon her when she returned to society to speak for the lost and carry the desperation of everyone who had suffered due to the Borg.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,032
I'd actually wondered before if Seven might have experienced some difficulty due to her status as an icon of Borg survivorship. It was mentioned in Voyager that Seven's mere existence, long before returning to the Alpha Quadrant, had become a focal point of people who had lost someone to Borg assimilation.

I get the impression that Picard, for all his fame, might not be regarded by the public in the same way. He was attacked by the Borg, "injured", and rescued a short while later. Seven was taken as a child, and represents the long-lost family member returning against all odds. Might have been a lot of pressure put upon her when she returned to society to speak for the lost and carry the desperation of everyone who had suffered due to the Borg.

Oh god, yeah. Again, Picard as a Borg is a short snippet of his career. A terrible one, but ultimately part of an ensemble alongside all the other stuff he did. But for Seven, everything she did on Voyager could be seen through lens of being the (ex-)Borg of the crew. She might have had people desperately asking her if she somehow knew - however little sense it would make - where their relatives were. Please come speak at this event for survivors of the Battle of Sector 001. Can all Borg really be reclaimed, what's your opinion, as a former member of the Collective? At some point it might have been tempting to leave Federation space just to get away from all the questions
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
There's touches of it in Hugh's depiction, though I feel like Jeri Ryan would, if she wanted, have more freedom (and power in her contract) to nix that so it'll be curious to see.

Plus honestly, she'll be the litmus test for how much Picard actually acknowledges the other shows. Not just in terms of lore references - 'Why, she's Seven of Nine from Voyager!' - but in following through on themes and character ideas from those series. Take the holograms issue, for example: Voyager was the show that had a holographic doctor who was not only a recurring member of the cast, but proceeded to explore the whole 'to what extent can a program be a person' concept as well. With all the hemming and hawing over 'synths', it would be weird to bring a member of Voyager's crew onboard without at least acknowledging how events may have impacted the Doctor, or his kind. But it's quite possible that writers could miss that opportunity if their chief concern is in bringing over Seven as someone else who just happened to be former Borg.
I was disappointed that The Doctor's holo-rights thing apparently didn't take off, seeing as they still have these EMH's deactivated on the capricious whims of surly humans. Guess they didn't look into that mobile emitter either. With multiple instances of holograms gaining self awareness, I'd wager it would make sense to maybe stop making servile beings when they have the potential to actualize into something more. Even putting a limiter in their program would seem kind of like a dick move, since it's like 'don't wan't you think for yourself too much'.

I'd actually wondered before if Seven might have experienced some difficulty due to her status as an icon of Borg survivorship. It was mentioned in Voyager that Seven's mere existence, long before returning to the Alpha Quadrant, had become a focal point of people who had lost someone to Borg assimilation.

I get the impression that Picard, for all his fame, might not be regarded by the public in the same way. He was attacked by the Borg, "injured", and rescued a short while later. Seven was taken as a child, and represents the long-lost family member returning against all odds. Might have been a lot of pressure put upon her when she returned to society to speak for the lost and carry the desperation of everyone who had suffered due to the Borg.
I'm wondering what the story is going to be here with this ex-borg are looked down on thing.
 
OP
OP
Spectromixer

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,678
USA
New episode tomorrow morning

1.05 "Stardust City Rag"

The La Sirena crew begin an unpredictable and lively expedition on Freecloud to search for Bruce Maddox. When they learn Maddox has found himself in a precarious situation, a familiar face offers her assistance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,622
I just realized...Picard doesn't seem to be introducing a new alien species to it's main cast, we usually get at least one.

TOS: Vulcans
TNG: Betazeds
DS9: Bajorans
VOY: whatever kes and neelix were
ENT: Denobulans
Disco: Kelpiens
Picard:????
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
I just realized...Picard doesn't seem to be introducing a new alien species to it's main cast, we usually get at least one.

TOS: Vulcans
TNG: Betazeds
DS9: Bajorans
VOY: whatever kes and neelix were
ENT: Denobulans
Disco: Kelpiens
Picard:????

Okampa and Talaxians for Kes and Neelix, I'm shocked I knew the names without looking them up... o.o
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,686
Neelix looked ridiculous but he was actually a pretty chill dude. I never really had a problem with him.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Neelix looked ridiculous but he was actually a pretty chill dude. I never really had a problem with him.
IIRC, SFDebris explained his hatred of Neelix as coming from Neelix's pathalogical need to insert himself into everything. It's always "Me me me, this is all about me!" whenever Neelix is around.

I never liked Neelix, but I remember feeling for him in that one episode where he was trying to get his hands on a black market map, because he had run out of anecdotal rumor information about the places Voyager was going, and he desperately needed some sort of information that might make him indispensable to the crew, because he really loved the humane treatment that Voyager was giving him, and he was afraid that Janeway would throw him to the wayside as soon as she realized that she no longer had a use for him. It didn't make me like Neelix, or make his antics not annoying, but it felt like they gave him a good reason for being the way that he was.
 

Phil me in

Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,292
how many episodes is it getting because we're 4 in and it's decent but slow. Discovery was way better.

I hope we see Q, that would be awesome.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
3,921
It s too depressing for me honnestly. I am not the target audience for this. Next stop they ll put a devastating virus on earth and kill everyone.
Have.. err not fun but... enjoy the show.
That has to be an alternate universe.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,268
Tampa, Fl
I am 40 years old and I do not understand where people are coming from with Star Trek Picard.

The future is suddenly not optimistic anymore?

There are Romulans on Earth, well some that aren't trying to take over everything.

Picard gets turned down by the military and yet still gets a ship.

Annika Hasen is acting as a Ranger to disenfranchised people.

Raffi is not living her best life, but because she is cynical and paranoid.

Did none of you watch Deep Space Nine and realize that the core territory were always doing better than the outer territories? Heck, TNG did three episodes about it.

We've been talking about Voyager too, and for all it's faults it did try, occasionally, to point out the Maquis and how Federation citizens could be unhappy with a treaty.

The future was never 100% perfect. Kirk was a bigoted soldier and felt that there would never be peace between the Federation and Klingon in his time. The Organians forced a peace, but Kirk would remain bigoted towards Klingons well into his 60s.

The optimistic future of Star Trek has always been about where we current stand, how we can improve. It has never been about the creators.

Gene Roddenberry was a womanizer and a sexist.

Michael Piller was a luddite when he passed.

Rick Berman was a sexist to the point that he drove two woman of the shows/movie. And would have pushed more off if he had his way.

Brennan Braga wrote torture into Enterprise because he wanted to be a writer for 24.

The optimism of Star Trek has never been about the creators, it's been about us the fans. Those of us who have looked at Star Trek and decided that the future of humanity was one of optimism not cynicism.

The shows helped here and there, but it's always been about us.

So let's look at Star Trek Picard. It could have just gone for the nostalgic kick. Given us grumpy old man Picard, Data alive in B4, etc.

Instead it decided to challenge us. The Federation made some questionable decisions. And then Starfleet made some other questionable decisions.

They accepted the cards resignation, then discharged Raffi just because she was Picard's Number One.

They ignored the concept of disposable people, that The Measure of a Man showed us could happen.

Synthetics, much more primitive than Data or the Doctor, are being used as slave labor. Something warned to Starfleet and the Federation twice. And yet there it stands. Even Voyager showed the disposable people in Author, Author. And nine years later they haven't figured it out.

To those saying the current series makes no sense because Utopia is broken. you haven't been paying attention to rhe 50+ years of Star Trek.

Utopia has always been broken. I just requires men like Picard, or Sisko, or Janeway, or us, to call it out
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
The future was never 100% perfect. Kirk was a bigoted soldier and felt that there would never be peace between the Federation and Klingon in his time. The Organians forced a peace, but Kirk would remain bigoted towards Klingons well into his 60s.
Kirk wasn't really bigoted towards Klingons.

Kirk was all wound up in his fight with the Klingons, and then the Organians stopped him, and he got mad that they interfered, and they pointed out that he was defending the indefensible (war), and confronted with that fact, Kirk came to his senses and sheepishly backed down. "We would've resolved things by ourselves, eventually..." And the Organians say "Yes, it's true that in the future you and the Klingons will become fast friends, but that's not soon enough so we're speeding things along." And Kirk's like "Well, I guess that's that. War's over. Wanna get a beer?"

In Star Trek III, while Spock was away, Klingons murdered Kirk's son, which is why Spock (in Star Trek VI) was confused by Kirk's willingness to watch the entire Klingon race die, and his unwillingness to extend a hand to help them. This was not the Kirk that Spock knew.

And then, as Kirk notes later in the film, the sight of the innocent Klingon Chancellor dying was what shook him out of that state. He wanted the Klingons to die, until he saw one Klingon dying, and then (confronted with the reality of it) he didn't want that Klingon (or any other Klingons) to die. Kirk says that Spock was entirely right to work towards peace with the Klingons. Kirk only lashed out against the idea of peace because of the grief he was carrying over the recent death of his son at Klingon hands.