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ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
We need Shantae in the next game. For multiple reasons.

I think there's at least a decent chance since she was in the group that Sakurai admitted was highly requested characters.

I'm holding out hope for Twintelle still, but obviously unlike Shantae, we don't have direct recognition via a Sakurai video. The only thing I keep hanging on is people were loud about the lack of Xeno 2 and ARMS playable, and they quickly reacted (and Sakurai said Nintendo and him heard the request loud and clear). So I'm hoping the same situation happened with Twintelle.

In Hindsight, honestly the best time to be loud about requests is when Nintendo and Sakurai are in-between Smash projects and they haven't started the project plan yet so we can make an attempt to influence. But it's clearly too late for Smash 6 to do that. At least for base game.
 

HibbySloth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,187
We need Shantae in the next game. For multiple reasons.

I think there's at least a decent chance since she was in the group that Sakurai admitted was highly requested characters.

I'm holding out hope for Twintelle still, but obviously unlike Shantae, we don't have direct recognition via a Sakurai video. The only thing I keep hanging on is people were loud about the lack of Xeno 2 and ARMS playable, and they quickly reacted (and Sakurai said Nintendo and him heard the request loud and clear). So I'm hoping the same situation happened with Twintelle.

In Hindsight, honestly the best time to be loud about requests is when Nintendo and Sakurai are in-between Smash projects and they haven't started the project plan yet so we can make an attempt to influence. But it's clearly too late for Smash 6 to do that. At least for base game.

So long as we get Dixie Kong, I'm good with Shantae. Nintendo's very own heroine with hair powers has been passed over for far too long.
 

jtmmachine

Member
Nov 2, 2020
2,333
The big thing I'm interested in seeing next time is if even one RPG or Fighting Game character from a third party forgoes its default swordie or posterboy punchman in favor of another deuteragonist like Robin or someone similarly popular solely in the interest of a more unique looking/playing choice. Like, I expect Kyo to be our KOF guy because he's the KOF guy and somehow didn't even get a Mii costume, but Iori is cooler and Sakurai does like him more... and while Akira is very unique among fighting game leads in spite of his "guy in a gi" design, it'd still be interesting to see, like, Jeffry or Lau Chan as someone who doesn't look like anyone else on the roster on top of their unique movesets.

I thought Kazuya was an interesting case since although there's no arguing he's a major character, he shares that status with Jin and Heihachi and Heihachi's usually the Tekken character Namco defaults to for crossovers. Even when Kazuya does show up, he's usually sharing the spotlight with one or both of them—SF X Tekken put Kazuya front-and-center in ads but that was alongside most of the regular Tekken cast . Smash Ultimate's the only time I can think of they went with JUST Kazuya and no one else.
 

ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
So long as we get Dixie Kong, I'm good with Shantae. Nintendo's very own heroine with hair powers has been passed over for far too long.

Listen, Dixie Kong is my number one most wanted character. I wanted her more than Sora and Banjo. And I will flip out way more than both combined if she gets in. No need to convince me lol

We should have as a collective have been louder about Dixie Kong. But the brightside is, she was in the theme park promotional art work for Donkey Kong Land. So Nintendo still considers her important. So I'm hoping some exec nudges Sakurai to put her in for promotional reasons and we get the win that way.

Then Shantae gets higher odds thanks to asset repurpose plans.
 

HibbySloth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,187
Listen, Dixie Kong is my number one most wanted character. I wanted her more than Sora and Banjo. And I will flip out way more than both combined if she gets in. No need to convince me lol

We should have as a collective have been louder about Dixie Kong. But the brightside is, she was in the theme park promotional art work for Donkey Kong Land. So Nintendo still considers her important. So I'm hoping some exec nudges Sakurai to put her in for promotional reasons and we get the win that way.

Then Shantae gets higher odds thanks to asset repurpose plans.

After Pyra and Myrtha, I'm really banking on them just getting rid of Diddy's banana peel and adding Dixie in like they wanted to for Brawl.
 

ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
After Pyra and Myrtha, I'm really banking on them just getting rid of Diddy's banana peel and adding Dixie in like they wanted to for Brawl.

Nah, at this point, I want them as separate characters. Might have been cool with it back in the day. Not now.

No Switching or Partners. It made sense for Pyra and Mythra because that's literally how they were in game. Dixie I want all in commitment.
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
I thought Kazuya was an interesting case since although there's no arguing he's a major character, he shares that status with Jin and Heihachi and Heihachi's usually the Tekken character Namco defaults to for crossovers. Even when Kazuya does show up, he's usually sharing the spotlight with one or both of them—SF X Tekken put Kazuya front-and-center in ads but that was alongside most of the regular Tekken cast . Smash Ultimate's the only time I can think of they went with JUST Kazuya and no one else.

Yeah, Kazuya can easily be argued as a case of this already happening. Not the best case, since he's very much a main character of the series since the first one, but still, he's rarely been the main character in the same way you'd say Terry or Ryu is. There's a reason everyone expected Heihachi instead. So who knows, the door could already be considered wide open for future fighting game character inclusions to be more spicy.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,537
Houston, TX
Yeah, Kazuya can easily be argued as a case of this already happening. Not the best case, since he's very much a main character of the series since the first one, but still, he's rarely been the main character in the same way you'd say Terry or Ryu is. There's a reason everyone expected Heihachi instead. So who knows, the door could already be considered wide open for future fighting game character inclusions to be more spicy.
Kazuya is still seen as one of the poster children of Tekken, even in crossovers. So I'm not sure I'd see him as an exception.

Though Byleth as a weapon master is interesting IMO, yes, Fire Emblem's the biggest example of a series that could theoretically see the next newcomer be pulled from among the supporting cast (or deuteragonist) if the main character would basically just be another echo. Which is always a possible thing when FE kind of thrives on reusing archetypes from game to game. If there was a Claude 2 or Edel 2, I would probably hope for them to get picked over a Byleth 2 or Marth 5.

The big thing I'm interested in seeing next time is if even one RPG or Fighting Game character from a third party forgoes its default swordie or posterboy punchman in favor of another deuteragonist like Robin or someone similarly popular solely in the interest of a more unique looking/playing choice. Like, I expect Kyo to be our KOF guy because he's the KOF guy and somehow didn't even get a Mii costume, but Iori is cooler and Sakurai does like him more... and while Akira is very unique among fighting game leads in spite of his "guy in a gi" design, it'd still be interesting to see, like, Jeffry or Lau Chan as someone who doesn't look like anyone else on the roster on top of their unique movesets.
Guilty Gear would actually be the next big litmus test for this, as it has its poster boy (Sol Badguy) & its popular girl (Bridget).
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
Yeah, which is why I find it hard to really say he does it, but just there's probably an argument to be made. Not one I care to make myself, but I dunno. Something's probably there for ol' Kazzy if you really squint.

Brisket would definitely be a very fun and more more clear example of a popular character who could theoretically follow in Min Min's footsteps and override the posterboy though. She's been around for ever, but damn, she's really a break out character right now. Totally eclipsing Sol and anyone else on the cast no question about it.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,537
Houston, TX
Yeah, which is why I find it hard to really say he does it, but just there's probably an argument to be made. Not one I care to make myself, but I dunno. Something's probably there for ol' Kazzy if you really squint.

Brisket would definitely be a very fun and more more clear example of a popular character who could theoretically follow in Min Min's footsteps and override the posterboy though. She's been around for ever, but damn, she's really a break out character right now. Totally eclipsing Sol and anyone else on the cast no question about it.
Sol is actually right under Bridget in popularity, so he's also the Twintelle to Bridget's Min Min in that regard in addition to being the poster boy. But yeah, Bridget getting in over Sol would be a repeat of Min Min's situation.

Even with FE Engage (assuming it's not skipped over for the base roster), going with someone other than Alear would be more interesting mechanically (Ex: Timerra). Although Alear does have some martial arts potential going by the source material.
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
Yeah, between the Emblems providing ample opportunity for specials and Arts giving punches, kicks, and ki blasts, I wouldn't count Alear out just yet. Their sword stuff is boring as hell, but theoretically, if Sakurai wants to, there's more to play with.
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,284
Bridget has another point in her favour - she's British and thus Sakurai's British Bias could kick in.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,537
Houston, TX
Yeah, between the Emblems providing ample opportunity for specials and Arts giving punches, kicks, and ki blasts, I wouldn't count Alear out just yet. Their sword stuff is boring as hell, but theoretically, if Sakurai wants to, there's more to play with.
Alear's odds ultimately depend on timing, especially relative to the next new mainline FE game and when the next Smash game's roster was decided compared to that & Engage's release.
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
i'm going to plug the q&a with igusa matsuyama, the main artist for almost every harvest moon/story of season game, that i helped organize now

ranchstoryblog.tumblr.com

Ranch Story Community Q&A Volume 3: Igusa Matsuyama Returns!

Igusa Matsuyama, the legendary artist behind the Story of Seasons series since the original 1996 game has once again agreed to a Q&A featuring questions from fans from around the world! A big thank...

to make it vaguely related to recent discussion, matsuyama mentions fallout so pete storyofseasons should appear in vaultboy's trailer i guess
 

Great Martinez Jr.

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 2, 2021
2,936
Mexico
I finished the main storyline of Side Order just in time for the last Splatfest and now I want a Spire of Order stage for the next Smash (I'm not asking for a character because "another Splatoon rep" is the one character prediction on which I actually would put money XD).

As an aside not directly related to Smash: Frye just isn't ever going to win a Splatfest ever, huh?

i'm going to plug the q&a with igusa matsuyama, the main artist for almost every harvest moon/story of season game, that i helped organize now

ranchstoryblog.tumblr.com

Ranch Story Community Q&A Volume 3: Igusa Matsuyama Returns!

Igusa Matsuyama, the legendary artist behind the Story of Seasons series since the original 1996 game has once again agreed to a Q&A featuring questions from fans from around the world! A big thank...

to make it vaguely related to recent discussion, matsuyama mentions fallout so pete storyofseasons should appear in vaultboy's trailer i guess

That was a nice read. Thanks for sharing.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
1,456
Afaik people immediately zoomed onto the DQ heroes (specifically endrick) the moment the rumors of a Dragon Quest rep started circulating - any talks of slime was mostly dismissed or not treated seriously in any regard. The idea that sakurai and Nintendo would choose side characters (whether for diversity or representation) is weird - why would people want barret/nina/kairi over sephiroth/kazuya/sora? Or that the likes of edelgard would just baffle people who only played VW or AM? If it came to huge franchises, i think the majority of people would rather go for the easily recognizable characters rather than the side stuff that niche forum-goers keep talking about. Getting 3rd parties on-board is a big endeavor and asking for side characters instead of the regular protagonists would likely be treated with derision by the stakeholders - imagine if sakurai asked for freaking choi bounge over terry.

Anyway, i was thinking of the more recent games that was released from 2020 onwards. Perhaps its quite tight of a timeline - but we're seen a pretty big influx of new IPs that have made their mark on the gaming industry in recognizability. Wonder if any of them caught Nintendo's attention?
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,279
Rochester, New York
The rumors of a DQ character started without Slime because the name Yuusha/Hero was literally in the files as an upcoming character. The rumors had no time to manifest into Slime because we already knew the DQ character getting in. They started with Hero

We know Sakurai did have Slime as a backup, though. He wasn't sure if SE would be okay with adding Hero
 

jtmmachine

Member
Nov 2, 2020
2,333
I think only Sephiroth, Joker, Byleth, Pythra, and Kazuya avoided any leaks out of Ultimate's DLC

K Rool's the one I'm surprised we never heard anything about, he was almost as demanded as Ridley
 

Zan

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,448
Anyway, i was thinking of the more recent games that was released from 2020 onwards. Perhaps its quite tight of a timeline - but we're seen a pretty big influx of new IPs that have made their mark on the gaming industry in recognizability. Wonder if any of them caught Nintendo's attention?

I think that Sakurai knows he can't do classical picks all the time, so I think he'll have a mix next time.
 

Metto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,112
I think the next thing they could do that could get attention or feel surprising that isn't a Sony character or non gaming character is probably leaning on more modern IP's like Genshin Impact/Mihoyo in general
 

CyberWolfBia

Member
Apr 5, 2019
9,924
Brazil
I think only Sephiroth, Joker, Byleth, Pythra, and Kazuya avoided any leaks out of Ultimate's DLC

K Rool's the one I'm surprised we never heard anything about, he was almost as demanded as Ridley
people were blindsided by the amount of newcomers in that Direct, when we already had a Castlevania leak prior the event.

No room to even speculate what more they could show if we hypothetically already knew what they'd be showcasing. Good lesson that day too.
 

jtmmachine

Member
Nov 2, 2020
2,333
people were blindsided by the amount of newcomers in that Direct, when we already had a Castlevania leak prior the event.

No room to even speculate what more they could show if we hypothetically already knew what they'd be showcasing. Good lesson that day too.

That Direct was magical; the Dark Samus + Chrom Echo reveals, Simon AND Richter, ALL THE RETURNING STAGES, new Pokémon and items and ATs galore including Shovel Knight and goddamn Rathalos, capped up with the good King himself. Just about the perfect presentation.

Although pouring over all the character profiles for hidden details after Everyone Is Here was great too. That's how we found out Krystal and Knuckles were ATs!
 

Great Martinez Jr.

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 2, 2021
2,936
Mexico
I think only Sephiroth, Joker, Byleth, Pythra, and Kazuya avoided any leaks out of Ultimate's DLC

K Rool's the one I'm surprised we never heard anything about, he was almost as demanded as Ridley

All in all, Ultimate wasn't that much of a leaky ship, at least comparatively.

Most fighting games these days have their entire base roster and first season pass leaked months before they even come out.

With Ultimate, we never knew anything too far in advance and most of the leaks that weren't due to someone at Nintendo or the development team screwing up somewhere (the Castlevania music uploaded before time, the code name of Hero left in the base game, the SNK copyright in the game's page), happened just a couple of hours before the character itself was revealed.

I think the next thing they could do that could get attention or feel surprising that isn't a Sony character or non gaming character is probably leaning on more modern IP's like Genshin Impact/Mihoyo in general

I mean, I think there are still several characters besides those that would garner a fair amount of attention.

That being said, given that I'm expecting the Mihoyo RPG's to come to the Switch successor sooner rather than later, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo considers some characters from them for next Smash (although most likely specifically for the DLC).
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
Afaik people immediately zoomed onto the DQ heroes (specifically endrick) the moment the rumors of a Dragon Quest rep started circulating - any talks of slime was mostly dismissed or not treated seriously in any regard. The idea that sakurai and Nintendo would choose side characters (whether for diversity or representation) is weird - why would people want barret/nina/kairi over sephiroth/kazuya/sora? Or that the likes of edelgard would just baffle people who only played VW or AM? If it came to huge franchises, i think the majority of people would rather go for the easily recognizable characters rather than the side stuff that niche forum-goers keep talking about. Getting 3rd parties on-board is a big endeavor and asking for side characters instead of the regular protagonists would likely be treated with derision by the stakeholders - imagine if sakurai asked for freaking choi bounge over terry.

Anyway, i was thinking of the more recent games that was released from 2020 onwards. Perhaps its quite tight of a timeline - but we're seen a pretty big influx of new IPs that have made their mark on the gaming industry in recognizability. Wonder if any of them caught Nintendo's attention?

Dragon Quest was a topic of discussion before the Yuusha leak, which often led to Slime being called just as likely (or moreso) than Erdrick. Once Yuusha was out there, Slime was pushed aside and Erdrick stepped forward as the obvious choice though. It's kind of amazing how much of FP1 and base kind of got out, largely because of Nintendo's own mistakes, only to be left with crickets by S2.

The idea of pulling for a character besides the obvious one isn't perfect for every scenario. No one ever expected (or asked for) Kairi instead of Sora, but fighting games are a major example where the main face of a franchise isn't necessarily always the one people gravitate to. Like, sure, no one wanted Choi over Terry, but they sure fucking would go for Nakoruru over Haohmaru, or Scorpion/Sub-Zero over Liu Kang, and even though I expect Kyo for KOF, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Iori or even Shun'ei. In very niche occasions, this can be applied to other genres as well, since I wouldn't necessarily expect Nina Williams over a Mishima (though which one was definitely up in the air), but if Breath of Fire was suddenly getting the call-up... Maybe that Nina, a recurring staple alongside Ryu as a deuteragonist throughout the entire series, wouldn't be far-fetched. Edelgard also being a popular choice lines up, considering either she's on your side or she's the main villain no matter what route you take. She's not just absent for players of the other routes.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,934
Also, I'm not sure why Sephiroth has to be the second FFVII rep. That goes against the usual "protagonist->other protagonist(s)->villain" pattern of character selection in this series, anyway. As I mentioned years ago, Barrett's competition by that line of thinking would be either Tifa or Aerith.
 

jtmmachine

Member
Nov 2, 2020
2,333
Still think Paper Mario's a dark horse candidate for a new Mario character with a lot of unique potential despite technically being a third Mario. Between Partners, Badges, Stickers, and everything else along with a 2D paper aesthetic he could really stand out. Even moreso if Geno doesn't work out.

Also as much as I'd enjoy seeing Barret or Tifa, I can't pretend I wouldn't find them comparatively underwhelming VS seeing goddamn Sephiroth crash the party being the Finalest Final Boss Smash character
 

Metto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,112
All in all, Ultimate wasn't that much of a leaky ship, at least comparatively.

Most fighting games these days have their entire base roster and first season pass leaked months before they even come out.

With Ultimate, we never knew anything too far in advance and most of the leaks that weren't due to someone at Nintendo or the development team screwing up somewhere (the Castlevania music uploaded before time, the code name of Hero left in the base game, the SNK copyright in the game's page), happened just a couple of hours before the character itself was revealed.



I mean, I think there are still several characters besides those that would garner a fair amount of attention.

That being said, given that I'm expecting the Mihoyo RPG's to come to the Switch successor sooner rather than later, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo considers some characters from them for next Smash (although most likely specifically for the DLC).
I'm not saying Mihoyo is the only exciting thing they could choose but rather it's probably one of the more surprising picks. We've discussed so many classic and legacy franchises for Smash representation that I do think putting in a character from recent gaming trends like Genshin Impact would probably be something that feels more surprising as I think most people would dismiss it as a meme like how Minecraft was before Steve finally got in
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
1,456
The rumors of a DQ character started without Slime because the name Yuusha/Hero was literally in the files as an upcoming character. The rumors had no time to manifest into Slime because we already knew the DQ character getting in. They started with Hero

We know Sakurai did have Slime as a backup, though. He wasn't sure if SE would be okay with adding Hero
Fair enough, although it's not that much different from those "what if we chose a recurring element like chocobo/jack frost/anna that no one really cares about instead of...the actual protagonists leading said popular games". And this is one of those scenarios where i'll take sakurai's words with a pinch of salt - he gets to say whatever he wants after he got the DQ heroes in, but his actions speak much louder than his words with the character choices.

Dragon Quest was a topic of discussion before the Yuusha leak, which often led to Slime being called just as likely (or moreso) than Erdrick. Once Yuusha was out there, Slime was pushed aside and Erdrick stepped forward as the obvious choice though. It's kind of amazing how much of FP1 and base kind of got out, largely because of Nintendo's own mistakes, only to be left with crickets by S2.

The idea of pulling for a character besides the obvious one isn't perfect for every scenario. No one ever expected (or asked for) Kairi instead of Sora, but fighting games are a major example where the main face of a franchise isn't necessarily always the one people gravitate to. Like, sure, no one wanted Choi over Terry, but they sure fucking would go for Nakoruru over Haohmaru, or Scorpion/Sub-Zero over Liu Kang, and even though I expect Kyo for KOF, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Iori or even Shun'ei. In very niche occasions, this can be applied to other genres as well, since I wouldn't necessarily expect Nina Williams over a Mishima (though which one was definitely up in the air), but if Breath of Fire was suddenly getting the call-up... Maybe that Nina, a recurring staple alongside Ryu as a deuteragonist throughout the entire series, wouldn't be far-fetched. Edelgard also being a popular choice lines up, considering either she's on your side or she's the main villain no matter what route you take. She's not just absent for players of the other routes.
DQ was oftentimes set aside whenever a squeenix character was brought up - it was more or less the usual suspects raised (geno, sora, another FF character, crono) within the smash forums. Afaik only Ryce and BGBW were the only ones in the previous threads who brought up the franchise as a possibility (and not slime specifically).
If anything, the fighting game choices included have been in stark contrast with what you've said - we got Ryu over any other "more popular" characters like chun-li/cammy/juri, we got terry over mai (no shit) and even if people "expected" heihachi we got the main protag/antagonist of the series anyway (you would even consider that to be a point that the devs go for the most recognizable leads even!). I think it says a lot when out of all the dlc characters, only 1 of them were considered a "side character" in any sense of the word (joker, banjo, terry, byleth, steve, kazuya and sora are the leads of their games, pyra/mythra are deuteragonists even when we knew sakurai considered rex first and cloud was already in the game....so that only leaves minmin as the only odd duck out).

I don't have any intention to go into "i can see so-and-so getting in" cause that's going into the realm of wholly subjectively arguments, but there's been a really clear trend on Nintendo and sakurai's choices, like it or not. And i'm honestly not surprised - outside of niche forums people are not going to care as much about random side characters compared to the leads. These are huge investments where you need to spend time and effort, not to mention what these 3rd parties would want as well.

Also, I'm not sure why Sephiroth has to be the second FFVII rep. That goes against the usual "protagonist->other protagonist(s)->villain" pattern of character selection in this series, anyway. As I mentioned years ago, Barrett's competition by that line of thinking would be either Tifa or Aerith.
Personally he's definitely the most recognizable one outside of cloud - he's most prominently included in crossovers involving FF7 (KH, dissidia) compared to the rest, any side media is still heavily based off him (advert children was based off shitty clones of him running around) and sakurai pretty much considers him as the most recognizable villain in gaming history outside of bowser (hard to argue otherwise).
It's a bit like the Chun-li? No one seriously thinks that say, bison is anyway near the latter's popularity and iconic-ness. It's not so much about side protagonists or villains having a specific order.


I'm not saying Mihoyo is the only exciting thing they could choose but rather it's probably one of the more surprising picks. We've discussed so many classic and legacy franchises for Smash representation that I do think putting in a character from recent gaming trends like Genshin Impact would probably be something that feels more surprising as I think most people would dismiss it as a meme like how Minecraft was before Steve finally got in
I think that Sakurai knows he can't do classical picks all the time, so I think he'll have a mix next time.
Possibly? I do think something like fortnite or genshin could easily make waves (that are more modern), although people seem to be pretty wary or think it's too early (which is fair). That said, they did ask for Minecraft 4 years after its release so maybe?
 

Zan

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,448
So with the rise in popularity that Fallout's been getting, I feel that we'll be getting a lot of requests for more content in Smash other than a Vault Dweller costume. Thing is though, with where Bethesda is right now, there's a lot of competition:

-DoomGuy or any Doom rep.
-Dovahkin or any Elder Scrolls rep
-Crash (and maybe Spyro)
-Master Chief
-A Second Rare fighter (Joana Dark? Rash?)
-A CoD rep (Dark horse, IMO)
-Activision legacy rep (C'mon Pitfall Harry!)
-(Personal want) Comander Keen

It's insane how the industry has changed since Ultimate. I'm probably missing some too, that's how much possibilities MS has.
 

Great Martinez Jr.

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 2, 2021
2,936
Mexico
The way I see it regarding the main character/obvious poster child vs. side character topic, it's that Sakurai and his team aren't in the wrong for prioritizing said main character, because yes, that character is often also the most popular of the game in question.

However, there are definitely specific instances where they could afford to be a bit more flexible, although mind you, they would still default to a particularly popular character.

Min Min was one of the most popular characters from ARMS, for instance.

I'm not saying Mihoyo is the only exciting thing they could choose but rather it's probably one of the more surprising picks. We've discussed so many classic and legacy franchises for Smash representation that I do think putting in a character from recent gaming trends like Genshin Impact would probably be something that feels more surprising as I think most people would dismiss it as a meme like how Minecraft was before Steve finally got in

I mean, probably more surprising for us because we spend so much time on a Smash dedicated thread in an enthusiast forum, but the general public would definitely be very surprised by some of the other options we have discussed multiple times here before.

So with the rise in popularity that Fallout's been getting, I feel that we'll be getting a lot of requests for more content in Smash other than a Vault Dweller costume. Thing is though, with where Bethesda is right now, there's a lot of competition:

-DoomGuy or any Doom rep.
-Dovahkin or any Elder Scrolls rep
-Crash (and maybe Spyro)
-Master Chief
-A Second Rare fighter (Joana Dark? Rash?)
-A CoD rep (Dark horse, IMO)
-Activision legacy rep (C'mon Pitfall Harry!)
-(Personal want) Comander Keen

It's insane how the industry has changed since Ultimate. I'm probably missing some too, that's how much possibilities MS has.

The only thing I can say on this matter is that it will be extremely ironic if "Western characters can get into Smash but only if they're owned by Microsoft" does become a recurring pattern.
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
Still hoping SimCity/The Sims gets to be our non-MS "western" third party rep. We're already so close... Dr. Wright...

I do kind of think Fallout's one of the most likely choices for MS now though. Just can't argue global popularity there, where even famous and iconic Japanese character designers are talking about playing the games...

DQ was oftentimes set aside whenever a squeenix character was brought up - it was more or less the usual suspects raised (geno, sora, another FF character, crono) within the smash forums. Afaik only Ryce and BGBW were the only ones in the previous threads who brought up the franchise as a possibility (and not slime specifically).
If anything, the fighting game choices included have been in stark contrast with what you've said - we got Ryu over any other "more popular" characters like chun-li/cammy/juri, we got terry over mai (no shit) and even if people "expected" heihachi we got the main protag/antagonist of the series anyway (you would even consider that to be a point that the devs go for the most recognizable leads even!). I think it says a lot when out of all the dlc characters, only 1 of them were considered a "side character" in any sense of the word (joker, banjo, terry, byleth, steve, kazuya and sora are the leads of their games, pyra/mythra are deuteragonists even when we knew sakurai considered rex first and cloud was already in the game....so that only leaves minmin as the only odd duck out).

I don't have any intention to go into "i can see so-and-so getting in" cause that's going into the realm of wholly subjectively arguments, but there's been a really clear trend on Nintendo and sakurai's choices, like it or not. And i'm honestly not surprised - outside of niche forums people are not going to care as much about random side characters compared to the leads. These are huge investments where you need to spend time and effort, not to mention what these 3rd parties would want as well.

I definitely remember a lot of Slime stuff, but I don't go on many boards besides this one anymore for Smash stuff, so memory's kind of fuzzy. Especially when during the actual hype cycle the discussion moved at an absurd pace from one topic to the next.

For the second bit, the what-if nature of "I can see so-and-so" is kind of the fun part of speculation, isn't it? There's no medal for correctly guessing. We're just spinning wheels waiting for the actual announcement of something happening right now, and a lot of obvious picks have already been discussed to death. Deuteragonists were considered part of the "side character" discussion, leaving both Robin and Pythra as pretty prominent examples of "well, they're more fun/unique/easier to work with than the main lead." Min Min's definitely the only true example of a total side character, but it's easy to see how she hypothetically opens the door for that funzies speculation when plenty of examples of popular characters that eclipse the "main" ones exist, like the mentioned Sub-Zero or Nakoruru.

If I wanted to get really weird with playing with the idea of what's what on paper, I could arguably say that Akira Yuki is one of the commonly accepted examples for "side characters" considering that while he's a posterboy now, he was famously a late addition to the first game and he's not the protagonist for VF's story at all. He's there to train and win tournaments, something he generally fails to do. Jacky Bryant and Kage-Maru have the high stakes and major vendettas against the villains, with Kage-Maru being the canonical winner of the most tournaments, yet they're usually brushed aside for speculation in spite of Jacky getting a Mii Costume as well and being the featured "VF rep" here:


View: https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1524947542139617301
 

Great Martinez Jr.

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Not directly related to Smash but thinking about it: Do any of you think we'll see more Fallout games on Switch or on the Switch successor?

It's kind of odd that after Fallout Shelter, they never ported any of the other games in the franchise.

For the second bit, the what-if nature of "I can see so-and-so" is kind of the fun part of speculation, isn't it? There's no medal for correctly guessing. We're just spinning wheels waiting for the actual announcement of something happening right now, and a lot of obvious picks have already been discussed to death. Deuteragonists were considered part of the "side character" discussion, leaving both Robin and Pythra as pretty prominent examples of "well, they're more fun/unique/easier to work with than the main lead." Min Min's definitely the only true example of a total side character, but it's easy to see how she hypothetically opens the door for that funzies speculation when plenty of examples of popular characters that eclipse the "main" ones exist, like the mentioned Sub-Zero or Nakoruru.

If I wanted to get really weird with playing with the idea of what's what on paper, I could arguably say that Akira Yuki is one of the commonly accepted examples for "side characters" considering that while he's a posterboy now, he was famously a late addition to the first game and he's not the protagonist for VF's story at all. He's there to train and win tournaments, something he generally fails to do. Jacky Bryant and Kage-Maru have the high stakes and major vendettas against the villains, with Kage-Maru being the canonical winner of the most tournaments, yet they're usually brushed aside for speculation in spite of Jacky getting a Mii Costume as well and being the featured "VF rep" here:


View: https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1524947542139617301


Yeah, I don't play Virtua Fighter but even I find that argument about Akira Yuki being a "side character" extremely unconvincing (although I guess that's precisely the point XD).

Still, I agree with your other points that no one would really complain if the likes of Nakoruru, Sub-Zero or Scorpion, or even Iori Yagami got over the actual protagonists of their respective franchises.
 

CyberWolfBia

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That Direct was magical; the Dark Samus + Chrom Echo reveals, Simon AND Richter, ALL THE RETURNING STAGES, new Pokémon and items and ATs galore including Shovel Knight and goddamn Rathalos, capped up with the good King himself. Just about the perfect presentation.

Although pouring over all the character profiles for hidden details after Everyone Is Here was great too. That's how we found out Krystal and Knuckles were ATs!
I feel we got to see Krystal as an Assist very early on in a offscreen gameplay footage, no? I remember I felt the rollercoaster of emotions almost immediately after being so happy with all the veterans returning.

All in all, Ultimate wasn't that much of a leaky ship, at least comparatively.
I mean... there was no ESRB leak, but getting a leak from debug mode is pretty significant, imo; especially for a Nintendo game

ken-leak-super-smash-bros-ultimate-screenshot.jpg


Only other situation I remember remotely similar was Kingdom Hearts III having the Monsters Inc. world leaked months before the formal announcement.
 

jph139

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The fact they've made the cut content available makes me think someone out there might be able to finish that DK Jr. and release it themselves, but that would require one of the 10-15 people who care about DK Jr. to also be extremely talented and motivated, so I won't hold my breath.

Meowth would have been cool too.

I remember wishing they'd gone with the N64 version of Lucas, so I'm heartened that they tried, but uhh... yeah I can see why they left that one on the cutting room floor.
 

jtmmachine

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That was practically everyone left people were asking for… Smash Remix team really WAS thorough. Loving all the different Wario Land stages they considered. Official Smash could take some notes!

Also I love all the Smash mods and fan games considering Vaporeon
 

Great Martinez Jr.

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I mean... there was no ESRB leak, but getting a leak from debug mode is pretty significant, imo; especially for a Nintendo game

ken-leak-super-smash-bros-ultimate-screenshot.jpg


Only other situation I remember remotely similar was Kingdom Hearts III having the Monsters Inc. world leaked months before the formal announcement.

I was talking specifically about the volume. In Ultimate's case, we effectively got those leaks drip feed to us (so to speak) one at a time, as opposed to what happened more recently with the likes of Street Fighter 6, Mortal Kombat 1 or Tekken 8 where people effectively knew of the full roster and even the first season of DLC several months in advance.

Fair point, however, that getting something from the debug mode is a far more serious kind of data breach, compared to people data mining stuff or posting art and video assets on 4chan.
 

batfax

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No Hyper NeoGeo 64 Terry planned for Smash Remix? SMH.

Not directly related to Smash but thinking about it: Do any of you think we'll see more Fallout games on Switch or on the Switch successor?

It's kind of odd that after Fallout Shelter, they never ported any of the other games in the franchise.



Yeah, I don't play Virtua Fighter but even I find that argument about Akira Yuki being a "side character" extremely unconvincing (although I guess that's precisely the point XD).

Still, I agree with your other points that no one would really complain if the likes of Nakoruru, Sub-Zero or Scorpion, or even Iori Yagami got over the actual protagonists of their respective franchises.

Yeah, pretty much. Sometimes the characters who aren't the "protagonist" are just that well loved and iconic. Even if I expect Kyo, and especially want Goodbye Esaka in Smash, I sure as hell ain't gonna be mad if I see this dude stroll in and Kyo just end up an AT or whatever.

latest

Also, I'm expecting FO4 in some form on the next Switch. It's kind of annoying that Beth's older games don't really do "HD Remaster," since FO3 and NV would be nice too, along with Morrowind. Considering what part of the setting the TV Show focuses the most on, it'd also be good if FO1 and 2 had some modern, convenient way to play them besides PC.
 

jtmmachine

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Scorpion at this point pretty much is the de-facto Mortal Kombat lead even if he's not the central protagonist: he's Netherrealm's dang logo. And I'd guarantee one of the first things people think of with MK are all the ninjas

Nightmare from Soul Calibur's in a similar position. although I'd have to imagine Nightmare would come with a Siegfried alt costume and it's either him or Kilik vying for series-wide protagonist so not the best example
 

Great Martinez Jr.

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Also, I'm expecting FO4 in some form on the next Switch. It's kind of annoying that Beth's older games don't really do "HD Remaster," since FO3 and NV would be nice too, along with Morrowind. Considering what part of the setting the TV Show focuses the most on, it'd also be good if FO1 and 2 had some modern, convenient way to play them besides PC.

Definitely feels like a missed opportunity they never remastered Fallout 3 and New Vegas (or any of the other Elder Scrolls games besides Skyrim, for that matter).

Scorpion at this point pretty much is the de-facto Mortal Kombat lead even if he's not the central protagonist: he's Netherrealm's dang logo. And I'd guarantee one of the first things people think of with MK are all the ninjas

Nightmare from Soul Calibur's in a similar position. although I'd have to imagine Nightmare would come with a Siegfried alt costume and it's either him or Kilik vying for series-wide protagonist so not the best example

Yeah, they're the obvious "Poster Boy" even if strictly speaking, they aren't the protagonists.

I'm even tempted to argue Nightmare is the central character of the entire SoulCalibur franchise, even if he is the villain. Especially after SCIII, what with becoming the incarnation of the Soul Edge itself.
 

batfax

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Soul Calibur's a super interesting case for protagonists since who's actually the "protagonist" jumps around a lot and would probably depend on what game you started with. Even if we were going back to the original Soul Blade, Sophitia has a better claim to being protagonist than Siegfried, who mostly only became a notable character after becoming Nightmare. Could also point to Xianghua being the one who wields the iconic form of Soul Calibur in the same way Nightmare's is the iconic form of Soul Edge, but she's just not anywhere near as popular as that status should give her. Then the most Nintendo-relevant Soul Calibur game was 2, which kind of put Raphael forth as the lead... and Cervantes has had the role of major antagonist for longer than Nightmare even...

MK ninjas are definitely more popular than Liu Kang by a huge margin, with their "mascot" status stemming almost entirely from their actual popularity rather than importance to the story. Even if poor Scorpion didn't even make it into MK3, he's still the one who got to be a guest in Injustice and Sub-Zero in Injustice 2 while Liu Kang is just off becoming a fire god or whatever.
 

jtmmachine

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Starting with Soul Calibur 2 was a fascinating experience because you were handed this whole new mystery box setting with, at a surface level, a very simple story of fighting people for Soul Edge shards. No immediately obvious main protagonist or antagonist—like you can tell Nightmare's up to no good but even he's not really driving the plot this time. He and Raphael end up having a very important battle but you don't learn that until 3. And the final boss is just Inferno showing up again, no active plotting. It's kind of chill!

It's only through unlocking character and stage bios that you learn everyone's dealing with the exciting fallout of what happened last game and you get a sense of who knows who and who's grouped in what factions. Lemme tell ya, that was both incentive to play through Arcade + Weapon Master modes and soooo tantalizing that this big event happened in a DreamCast game I had no access to at the time. Soul Calibur 2 did single player content right IMO
 

batfax

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Honestly, yeah. I really love SC2's single player and it isn't that far from Ultimate's gameplay-wise now that I think about it. Move around a map, doing lots of "event match" style battles, including alternate paths and obstacles. Though SC gave story and lore to everything going on. Shame that localization takes up so many resources, since I'm pretty sure that was mentioned as one of the reasons Ultimate is relatively light on text, including the loss of trophy descriptions.

Maybe the next Smash's single player could have "dungeons" to explore like SC's...
 

jtmmachine

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View: https://youtu.be/HgdacJPJygs?si=4tgMzeG6UxF_KiqZ

This is an impressive mod but also a perfect example of why a 1:1 translation isn't always the best approach. Dread!Samus just has way too many things going on and not all the new moves mesh well—like why change Up-Air? That's always been one of Samus's better moves. The Free Aim's a neat idea but isn't that much better at expressing how Samus moves and shoots in her games than her current kit
 

GreenMamba

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Oct 25, 2017
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View: https://youtu.be/HgdacJPJygs?si=4tgMzeG6UxF_KiqZ

This is an impressive mod but also a perfect example of why a 1:1 translation isn't always the best approach. Dread!Samus just has way too many things going on and not all the new moves mesh well—like why change Up-Air? That's always been one of Samus's better moves. The Free Aim's a neat idea but isn't that much better at expressing how Samus moves and shoots in her games than her current kit

Lots of fun ideas here but yeah it's too much. Changing her up special to a tether feels really wrong too, jumping multiple times in the air is kind of Samus's thing but now she's jumping fewer times than most characters do? I dunno.