B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
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Oct 25, 2017
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WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that nearly half of Oklahoma falls within an Indian reservation, a decision that could reshape the criminal-justice system by preventing state authorities from prosecuting offenses there that involve Native Americans.

The 5-to-4 decision, potentially one of the most consequential legal victories for Native Americans in decades, could have far-reaching implications for the 1.8 million people who live across what is now deemed "Indian Country" by the high court. The lands include much of Tulsa, Oklahoma's second-biggest city.

The case was steeped in the United States government's long history of brutal removals and broken treaties with Indigenous tribes, and grappled with whether lands of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation had remained a reservation after Oklahoma became a state.

Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, a Westerner who has sided with tribes in previous cases and joined the court's more liberal members, said that Congress had granted the Creek a reservation, and that the United States needed to abide by its promises.


"Today we are asked whether the land these treaties promised remains an Indian reservation for purposes of federal criminal law," Justice Gorsuch wrote. "Because Congress has not said otherwise, we hold the government to its word."

Muscogee leaders hailed the decision as a hard-fought victory that clarified the status of their lands. The tribe said it would work with state and federal law enforcement authorities to coordinate public safety within the reservation.

"This is a historic day," Principal Chief David Hill said in an interview. "This is amazing. It's never too late to make things right."

www.nytimes.com

Landmark Supreme Court Ruling Affirms Native American Rights in Oklahoma (Published 2020)

A 5-4 decision declaring that much of eastern Oklahoma is an Indian reservation could reshape criminal justice in the area by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans.

This is a gigantic victory. It's really how hard to overstate how consequential this will be, not only in Oklahoma but across the nation.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,527
Gentrified Brooklyn
Great.
In lots of rural areas policing is basically a jobs welfare program for non-natives to go and fuck with the already marginalized native population.

Now that they don't have jurisdiction to go escalate everything to 100 to get some arrests, maybe they will like...actually try to help the community.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
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Oct 26, 2017
61,758
Wow!

Ted Cruz is salty on Twitter about this.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Great news. Gorsuch flipping just reinforces my view that Thomas, Kavanaugh, and Scalia are/were considerably worse that most of the other conservatives.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,856
Seattle
This was posted on the other SCOTUS thread, but why Gorsuch continues to side with the liberals on Tribal Matters:

slate.com

Why Gorsuch Keeps Joining the Liberals to Affirm Tribal Rights

The court’s only Western justice has a firm grasp on American Indian law and an obvious empathy for tribes and their members.

On Monday, for the second time this year, Justice Neil Gorsuch joined the Supreme Court's liberals in a 5–4 decision bolstering the rights of American Indians under 19th​-century treaties. The court's decision in Herrera v. Wyoming is not earth-shattering, but it is noteworthy, rejecting an old theory of state sovereignty in favor of American Indian treaty rights. And coming on the heels of Washington State Department of Licensing v. Cougar Den—in which Gorsuch joined the liberals to affirm states' obligations to the tribes they displaced—Herrera reveals a court shifting left on tribal disputes. Thanks to the conservative justice's vote, American Indian plaintiffs are enjoying an unusually good term at the Supreme Court. What's behind this curious alliance?


The most obvious answer is that Gorsuch is simply more sympathetic to tribal rights than his conservative colleagues. And if that is indeed the case, then it should come as no surprise. As a judge on the 10th ​U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Gorsuch consistently ruled in favor of tribes' right to govern their own affairs and rely upon promises made by the state and federal governments. For that reason, multiple tribes endorsed Gorsuch's nomination to the Supreme Court. Alvin Not Afraid Jr., chairman of the Crow Tribe Executive Branch, told the Senate that Gorsuch "has consistently demonstrated not only a sound understanding of Federal Indian Law principles, but a respect for our unique and closely held cultural values." John Dossett, then general counsel of the National Congress of American Indians, wrote that Gorsuch "appears to be both attentive to the details and respectful to the fundamental principles of tribal sovereignty and the federal trust responsibility."
 

tm24

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
2,915
Are Sotomayor and Gorsuch the best thing to happen to Native Americans in politics?
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
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Oct 26, 2017
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As partisan as SCOTUS can be, it's nice that it is not a sure bet, especially for a mobster like Trump. He's having a bad Thursday.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,658
Gorsuch is shaping up to be a decent justice as far as a conservative one can go. Should have been Garland, but Trump could have done worse I suppose.
 

Deleted member 17092

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Good. For legal era what does this pertain to beyond criminal cases? Does the tribe(s) have far reaching power beyond just the criminal justice system in eastern OK now? Housing, education, etc?
 

davepoobond

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Oct 25, 2017
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I really don't know what this all means for Oklahoma itself. It gives more autonomy to the tribes themselves, obviously, but what of laws etc that are from the state government?
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,126
Halifax, NS
for picture reference on just how much of Oklahoma is now reservation land:

Boundaries_of_the_Five_Tribes_in_1866.jpg
 

Midgarian

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Apr 16, 2020
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I read the first few chapters of Killers of the Flower Moon back when lockdown initially started, after seeing a thread here about Scorsese making a movie adaptation.

With the context of what I so far have read of that book, GOOD GOOD GOOD.
 

sir_crocodile

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Oct 25, 2017
23,693
Great news. I thought this was the case Gorsuch had to recuse himself on, but I must be thinking of another one.
 

Dineren

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
So has there been any word on what this means for all the state convictions that have occurred in that territory? It seems unlikely that they would be vacated, but what else could happen if they never had jurisdiction?
 

Deleted member 31923

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Great news. Gorsuch flipping just reinforces my view that Thomas, Kavanaugh, and Scalia are/were considerably worse that most of the other conservatives.

Don't forget Alito. He's pure scum. But even Kavanaugh ruled against Trump on his taxes, while Thomas and Alito confirmed how awful they are.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
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Oct 27, 2017
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So has there been any word on what this means for all the state convictions that have occurred in that territory? It seems unlikely that they would be vacated, but what else could happen if they never had jurisdiction?
Maybe a negotiated deal. Otherwise, I think most of those would be vacated.
 

Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2017
6,639
So has there been any word on what this means for all the state convictions that have occurred in that territory? It seems unlikely that they would be vacated, but what else could happen if they never had jurisdiction?

It's unclear. Some can be retried under the Federal system, probably.

Ultimately the prisoners would need to have the resources to pay for an appeal, which means many of them will remain incarcerated.
 
OP
OP
B-Dubs

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
33,679
Great news. I thought this was the case Gorsuch had to recuse himself on, but I must be thinking of another one.
There was a similar case he recused on from earlier in the year (or last year).

So has there been any word on what this means for all the state convictions that have occurred in that territory? It seems unlikely that they would be vacated, but what else could happen if they never had jurisdiction?
Far as I can tell, nothing is automatic but everything can be appealed on these grounds now.

Gorsuch isn't being everything conservatives hoped for and I'm loving it.
Ironically, he's exactly who they thought they were getting: a textualist judge. They just never realized what that meant.
 

Volimar

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Oct 25, 2017
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www.usatoday.com

Supreme Court says eastern Oklahoma remains Native American territory

Legal authority over virtually half of Oklahoma – home to 1.8 million residents and including Tulsa, its second-largest city – was at issue.

The state's solicitor general, Mithun Mansinghani, had warned in May that a ruling for Native Americans could require the release of more than 1,700 inmates. That didn't sit well with several justices who feared a chaotic overhaul of long-decided criminal cases.

"What makes this case hard is that there have been hundreds, hundreds of prosecutions, some very heinous offenses of the state law. On your view, they would all become undone," Associate Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg told Gershengorn.

"Won't (residents) be surprised to learn that they are living on a reservation and that they are now subject to laws imposed by a body that is not accountable to them in any way?" Associate Justice Samuel Alito asked.

Lots of uncertainty here.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
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Halifax, NS
Also, congress could very easily step in and pass legislation to disestablish these native lands the way they probably intended to but forgot the last time around.

Politically it would be a nightmare, but we'll have to see what kind of agreement the state and the native bands come to now.
 

Chrome Hyena

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Oct 30, 2017
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www.usatoday.com

Supreme Court says eastern Oklahoma remains Native American territory

Legal authority over virtually half of Oklahoma – home to 1.8 million residents and including Tulsa, its second-largest city – was at issue.



Lots of uncertainty here.
This is America's fault. The government constantly screwed those people out of their land and rights, giving them something only to break it, take it away etc. If people are mad that they now live on a "reservation", take it up with your government who screwed over those folks originally.
 

Deleted member 60295

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Gorsuch is shaping up to be a decent justice as far as a conservative one can go. Should have been Garland, but Trump could have done worse I suppose.

I still wouldn't use the word "decent" to describe any conservative judge.... but I'll also admit I never would have thought Gorsuch would turn out to be less awful than Thomas and Alito, both who have made it crystal clear with their most recent dissents that their sole motivation is to rubber stamp the GOP"s total destruction of our democracy.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,006
Great news. Gorsuch flipping just reinforces my view that Thomas, Kavanaugh, and Scalia are/were considerably worse that most of the other conservatives.

This ruling is in line with his previous Native American rulings and attitude in general towards the tribes.

Edit: A quick google search reveals that one of his former law clerks was a Tobi Young, who is a member of Chickasaw Nation.
 

sir_crocodile

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Oct 25, 2017
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Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2017
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As far as legal questions go, the decision was that the Court has observed the existing cooperation between the Tribes and state for the last few hundred years and had no good faith reason to assume that that cooperation would end.

But ultimately it's hard to imagine that in any future battles that arise the state has much jurisdiction.
 

Volimar

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Oct 25, 2017
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This is America's fault. The government constantly screwed those people out of their land and rights, giving them something only to break it, take it away etc. If people are mad that they now live on a "reservation", take it up with your government who screwed over those folks originally.

I mean sure, on that level it's great. But when you consider this ended up in front of SCOTUS because a child rapist was trying to get out of his sentence, it's a bit bittersweet. Hope the federal government gets the same result if/when they try him.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
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Oct 27, 2017
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While there's certainly going to be confusion and problems as a result, I'm glad that didn't sway the 5 justices to rule against them. All of that could have been avoided if the treaty had been respected in the first place. Just because the other side fucked up for over 100 years doesn't mean agreements should be ignored.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,658
I still wouldn't use the word "decent" to describe any conservative judge.... but I'll also admit I never would have thought Gorsuch would turn out to be less awful than Thomas and Alito, both who have made it crystal clear with their most recent dissents that their sole motivation is to rubber stamp the GOP"s total destruction of our democracy.

Hence "as far as a conservative one can go." Just trying to be optimistic since there has been a lot of anxiety surrounding the future of the Supreme Court, we're managing to make progressive rulings despite the circumstances.
 
Dec 31, 2017
7,160
I'm a bit confused, this sounds good, but what is the practical effect of such a ruling for Oklahoma? How will criminal law in this area now be interpreted?