Tara Reade appears to have lied under oath about her education, defense lawyers seek to get convictions overturned in cases where she testified

[Pixieking]

Again, ganging up on the moderation team that tries their best to facilitate the needs/desires of the Era climate of any given instance is the wrong take-away.

Stop blaming moderation. The stringent moderation is indicative of the hostile environment of this site. If the mod team didn't clamp down on rationally skeptical posts in the past weeks, they get blasted for "siding with rape apologists" and creating an "unsafe environment for survivors." There was literally no course of action, where they win, with how ridiculously fractured Era is over these cases. Just take a second to think before unironically jumping into another premature blame game.

This site's discourse around allegations needs to change on a fundamental level, if we want to make Era a better place for all participants. I feel like pointing fingers at the moderation team is by far the worst course of action.

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Moderation and the site's discourse are deeply intertwined. The post Kirblar was banned for is, in light of everything that has transpired on the subject, the most milquetoast reaction imaginable. Yet one of the stated ban reasons is "Deflecting from sexual harassment allegations". The take that says "I'll wait for a real reporter who actually talks about the story" is lukewarm in comparison to every post in this thread, and the ban reason is disingenuous in light of what the WaPo, PBS, NYT and CNN have done.

The moderators are as much to blame for the discourse here as us actual users, if only because they use threat of banning in order to ensure users toe the line. I am not for one second saying they have an easy job, but they have certainly created an atmosphere where it feels like discourse is led by the mob.

All that said (and at the risk of backseat modding) I would advise that a new thread is created in order to determine what Era can learn from this. The topic is serious enough that forum drama and repercussions are disrespectful, imo.

 

[Pwnz]

Seems no big media has picked this up yet, nobody even posted about this until today

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NYT is in op

 

[Sean C.]

For one, to clear this whole situation up with some hard evidence one way or another. If Reade has a transcript here has to be a record of her attending which would prove if she graduated or not. Otherwise how the hell did she get into law school?

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How is the university categorically saying she didn't graduate not hard evidence?

We don't yet know the specifics of how she duped Seattle Law, but it is evident she must have.

There's a lot of shit that doesn't make any sense overall and it's interesting how someone who stepped forward and made a huge accusation all of a sudden has such a checkered history. What motivation does she have when she should have known all this would come to light once the press dug into it?

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People with shady pasts expose themselves to public scrutiny all the time. People are stupid.

 

[mugurumakensei]

NYT is in op

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No big media like Jacobin or the Hill.

 

[jack_package_200]

Seems no big media has picked this up yet, nobody even posted about this until today

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New York Times is pretty big?

 

[SJurgenson]

For one, to clear this whole situation up with some hard evidence one way or another. If Reade has a transcript here has to be a record of her attending which would prove if she graduated or not. Otherwise how the hell did she get into law school?

There's a lot of shit that doesn't make any sense overall and it's interesting how someone who stepped forward and made a huge accusation all of a sudden has such a checkered history. What motivation does she have when she should have known all this would come to light once the press dug into it? We're missing something here and the ramifications have now expanded to 20 possible conviction overturns.

That's why I still believe, but want more verification. There's still no evidence proving her accusations as false.

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The school she claimed she graduated from -- Antioch -- has said to both CNN and NYT that she attended but did not graduate.

Seattle University has said she claimed she had the degree from Antioch. We've not heard if they have said if or how they verified that claim when they admitted her.

Her response to these allegations so far are just to point to the Seattle University statement, and to show to NYT a partial transcript that lists no graduation, and considerably fewer credits than would be needed to graduate.

Her credibility here looks blown to smithereens. Antioch has no reason to lie about something as simple as a diploma, and her responses have been either insufficent (pointing at Seattle U when Antioch is the direct source) or outright unbelievable (a secret program with a secret diploma that both Antioch AND the chancellor she claimed granted it denies).

With cases like these -- accusations of assault years ago -- there is rarely direct evidence that point one way or another, and they are often made off the back of witness and accuser credibility. With her having none remaining, I don't see how it's reasonable to believe her any longer. She could be telling the truth here, but she's now the boy-who-cried-wolf at best.

With what we know now, the real victims are those affected directly and greatly by her lies -- those whose lives have been possibly ruined by court proceedings she may have swayed with her false testimony.

 

[Loud Wrong]

New York Times is pretty big?

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I've heard of CNN as well.

 

[Armadilo]

New York Times is pretty big?

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Like tv

 

[SJurgenson]

So she doesn't have proof because she graduated in secret, so in law, she didn't actually meet the requirements needed do whatever she did get, so whatever diploma that she did get is voided right ?

Seems like somebody screwed up big, lots of people actually

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Nobody screwed up but her, as far as we know. There are no such things as secret diplomas -- as that ruins the point of diplomas, which are to prove you earned a degree. If the university doesn't recognize a diploma, it's worthless.

Her claim about a 'secret diploma' makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Squarehard]

New York Times is pretty big?

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Politico has also picked it up.

 

[BrucCLea13k87]

I remember when this entire forum was ready to burn Johnny Depp at the stake. Now they want Amber Heard's blood. Perhaps...this could be another example not to jump to conclusions until enough information is established?

Maybe...don't say stupid shit until you know all the facts?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Yeah I really hope the Mods don't fold to the people trying to take victory laps about this stuff. This was a extremely sensitive, unprecedented topic in a very heated time in our country's history. If it turns out that the people banned were vindicated and there you go there's your W. Considering the reason there was such a mass exodus to this site in the first place… Can't you be a little forgiving if certain moderation practices were a bit stricter when it came to this? No one in the world could've predicted This amount of craziness after the allegations came out.

And I will 100% back mods for "erring" on the side of supporting victims versus oh no they're going to drive members away from the politics sub form? OK… And

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Agreed.

This situation is such that moderation can't please everyone. Like, the way these Biden rape allegations devolve I don't know how you create an environment where victims feel welcome while you literally have threads where people are tossing these "If you don't vote Biden in November, you're enabling the suffering of millions." I mean Jesus fucking christ, is that how you would address a rape victim in real life?

Bingo

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I dunno, more and more I feel like people want the discourse to be allow doubt to be sewn on the most stupid bullshit. Like because every blue moon we'll throw the dart blindfolded backwards and it'll hit the target, that justifies it. It's whatever though.

 

[Armadilo]

Nobody screwed up but her, as far as we know. There are no such things as secret diplomas -- as that ruins the point of diplomas, which are to prove you earned a degree. If the university doesn't recognize a diploma, it's worthless.

Her claim about a 'secret diploma' makes absolutely no sense.

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What about that lady that she named?

 

[mugurumakensei]

What about that lady that she named?

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the chancellor Reade name dropped said she knew of no such degree being conferred in the NYT article.

 

[xxracerxx]

What about that lady that she named?

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Please read the thread.

 

[Chindogg]

How is the university categorically saying she didn't graduate not hard evidence?

We don't yet know the specifics of how she duped Seattle Law, but it is evident she must have.

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Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

Beyond that, how is a check forger, law school passing with no real undergrad degree become a major senator's aide? Is literally everyone on the planet incompetent? Not saying that's impossible, but it definitely raises a lot of questions.

 

[RedMercury]

The issue was we said "hey let's wait and vet before we burn the witch" and we were met with bad faith and dishonesty.

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I feel like maybe don't tell sexual assault survivors and advocates to wait and see would be a better move. Nobody forced anyone to burn anyone, nobody is forced to post anything

 

[excelsiorlef]

What about that lady that she named?

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The school reached out to her and she said she never did what Tara said she did

That's in the small outlet New York Times article

 

[GameAddict411]

What about that lady that she named?

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Her spoke person actively denied of such a thing ever happening.

 

[Teiresias]

What about that lady that she named?

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Already been followed up with and denied Reade's claim.

 

[Interested Observer]

All that said (and at the risk of backseat modding) I would advise that a new thread is created in order to determine what Era can learn from this. The topic is serious enough that forum drama and repercussions are disrespectful, imo.

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This has happened loads of times before and nothing has been learned from what I can see. I don't see why this case would be any different.

 

[Sandstar]

She doesn't even claim she GOT a diploma anymore, she claims she didn't get one because she was fast tracked into law school!

 

[Deleted member 48897]

This is some James Bond level forgery. I don't know how Antioch's departments go, but in my university the administration and registrar were in separate buildings.

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Yeah, I'm definitely going to need to hear a lot more about this before I'm able to be convinced this is material evidence in favor of Biden. Something has the law school convinced and as far as I'm concerned that's the more relevant qualification in a general sense even if the legal system would still have problems with her

 

[SJurgenson]

What about that lady that she named?

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If you're talking about the Chancellor at Antioch she said she worked with, NYT talked to the Chanceller and she denied it

 

[Opto]

Moderation and the site's discourse are deeply intertwined. The post Kirblar was banned for is, in light of everything that has transpired on the subject, the most milquetoast reaction imaginable. Yet one of the stated ban reasons is "Deflecting from sexual harassment allegations". The take that says "I'll wait for a real reporter who actually talks about the story" is lukewarm in comparison to every post in this thread, and the ban reason is disingenuous in light of what the WaPo, PBS, NYT and CNN have done.

The moderators are as much to blame for the discourse here as us actual users, if only because they use threat of banning in order to ensure users toe the line. I am not for one second saying they have an easy job, but they have certainly created an atmosphere where it feels like discourse is led by the mob.

All that said (and at the risk of backseat modding) I would advise that a new thread is created in order to determine what Era can learn from this. The topic is serious enough that forum drama and repercussions are disrespectful, imo.

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kirblar's behavior when the allegations being brought up were pretty gross and weren't just one post. Also they were very stuck in their moderate liberal bias and would defend any democratic candidate's less than stellar record

 

[Barbarossa]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

Beyond that, how is a check forger, law school passing with no real undergrad degree become a major senator's aide? Is literally everyone on the planet incompetent? Not saying that's impossible, but it definitely raises a lot of questions.

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I think you have the order of events mixed up there.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

Beyond that, how is a check forger, law school passing with no real undergrad degree become a major senator's aide? Is literally everyone on the planet incompetent? Not saying that's impossible, but it definitely raises a lot of questions.

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Schools are required to keep detailed and complete records. The size of a school or whether it's private or public means nothing. Even tiny schools that shut down have their records preserved either by a different school or by a state department of education.

A school not doing so likely wouldn't be deemed legitimate and would likely lose their accreditation and/or licenses to operate.

As for the rest, your timeline wouldn't be correct.

 

[chainlinkspiral]

kirblar's behavior when the allegations being brought up were pretty gross and weren't just one post. Also they were very stuck in their moderate liberal bias and would defend any democratic candidate's less than stellar record

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Kirblar's main complaints, Ryan Grim is a hack, and there were holes in the attorney representation story have both borne out, your complaints with their moderate liberal bias, aside. People may not have liked what Kirblar had to say, but Kirblar wasn't wrong.

 

[Pixieking]

kirblar's behavior when the allegations being brought up were pretty gross and weren't just one post.

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Yet you're not arguing that that ban reason was right.

Also they were very stuck in their moderate liberal bias and would defend any democratic candidate's less than stellar record

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And this, 100%, speaks to you own bias more than anything else.

 

[Chindogg]

I remember when this entire forum was ready to burn Johnny Depp at the stake. Now they want Amber Heard's blood. Perhaps...this could be another example not to jump to conclusions until enough information is established?

Maybe...don't say stupid shit until you know all the facts?

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In Depp's case we had an audio tape. This is all muddled he said she said with nothing concrete proving one way or the other. Even then it still doesn't prove or disprove her allegations.

This is just a giant clusterfuck of mass incompetence either way.

 

[Addie]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

Beyond that, how is a check forger, law school passing with no real undergrad degree become a major senator's aide? Is literally everyone on the planet incompetent? Not saying that's impossible, but it definitely raises a lot of questions.

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She was never a major senator's "aide."

By all accounts, including her own pay stubs and her own statements, she was a low-level "staff assistant" that handled constituent mail and managed college interns. Her coworker said her work performance was poor. She was also apparently docked pay twice (not sure if that was performance-related or misconduct-related).

In any event, her job wasn't significant. I raise this only because an entry-level hire, especially back in the time period we're talking, went through HR and that's likely the extent of the vetting. Maybe they did a background check?

 

[B.O.O.M.]

Looking more like she done fucked up

 

[mugurumakensei]

I think you have the order of events mixed up there.

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Yep. It's senate mailroom staff assistant -> check forger -> former staff assistant -> college (no degree) -> law school -> expert witness for "being a legislative assistant who worked on the Violence against women act that earned their degree from Antioch University"

 

[RedMercury]

You're saying they chose to be partial to one group of posters instead of being fair and impartial. That's actually worse.

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I don't think anyone has an issue if they are supporting survivors and victims right? It would be dumb to try to strike some artificial arbitrary balance in that regard where people dismissive or downplaying claims have to be treated the same as people on the other side. It's not a court of law where all sides are equal, and in fact trying to attain that is almost always going to be worse for victims who are already at a disadvantage with the deck stacked against them. I'm totally cool with giving victims and advocates against rape culture and sexual assault a better shake but that's just me, I don't think it'll kill us.

 

[Teiresias]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records?

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All off this was covered in the ORIGINAL story and the original follow up from the school response. The school said they have record of her attending and doing some administrative work but not that she completed a degree. Losing records is highly unlikely, so unlikely Reade claimed the "secret degree" thing that the Chancellor of the time has denied.

Hell, even the transcript Reade herself provided doesn't contain enough credits for her to have graduated.

We shouldn't have to read the news stories for you.

 

[Cipherr]

This thread isnt about moderation, its not about PoliERA or how people were treated here so Im editing this. Every topic concerning Tara Reade seems to veer into discussing how things were handled on ERA and thats just offtopic. Ill erase this post and address it if theres ever an OT for this.

 

[Sean C.]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

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Again, Antioch has already addressed this: she attended, and did not graduate. They have her records (which also show she lied about her later employment history there).

 

[Interested Observer]

In Depp's case we had an audio tape. This is all muddled he said she said with nothing concrete proving one way or the other. Even then it still doesn't prove or disprove her allegations.

This is just a giant clusterfuck of mass incompetence either way.

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Are you talking about Depp or Reade here? If it's the latter, the university say she didn't graduate. How much more concrete do you want?

 

[Stinkles]

Did she attend or not? If so did she graduate? If she didn't attend, how did she get a transcript? Could it be possible they just lost her records? It's a private school so who knows what their record keeping is like.

Beyond that, how is a check forger, law school passing with no real undergrad degree become a major senator's aide? Is literally everyone on the planet incompetent? Not saying that's impossible, but it definitely raises a lot of questions.

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She was not Biden's Aide, she worked in the staff office.

 

[Addie]

Yep. It's senate mailroom staff assistant -> check forger -> former staff assistant -> college (no degree) -> law school -> expert witness for "being a legislative assistant who worked on the Violence against women act that earned their degree from Antioch University"

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College was after the mailroom? Huh. I guess I had that backwards too.

 

[mugurumakensei]

College was after the mailroom? Huh. I guess I had that backwards too.

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yes. She "got her degree" in the late 90s/early 00s (this can be inferred because she wasn't married before working for Biden but claims to have gotten a secret degree in her divorce)

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to need to hear a lot more about this before I'm able to be convinced this is material evidence in favor of Biden. Something has the law school convinced and as far as I'm concerned that's the more relevant qualification in a general sense even if the legal system would still have problems with her

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The most relevant qualification is always what the actual institution that would have conferred the degree says.

As an admissions officer at a university, this is what we always look for. Even if a credit was listed from a different college on a transcript submitted to us, we still require the transcript from the other school no matter what. We don't take the word of a different school to make a decision.

 

[SJurgenson]

She doesn't even claim she GOT a diploma anymore, she claims she didn't get one because she was fast tracked into law school!

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Reade told CNN that she received a bachelor of arts degree from Antioch University in Seattle under the auspices of a "protected program," personally working with the former president of the school to ensure her identity was protected while she obtained credits for her degree. She also said that she was a visiting professor at the school, on and off for five years.

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To protect her identity as a survivor of domestic abuse, Ms. Reade says she received her degree through the private assistance of the school's then-president, Tullisse Murdock. She says she never received a diploma or requested one since she was "fast-tracked" to law school.

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I think there is some splitting of hairs about a diploma. The issue isn't whether she got a piece of paper, it's whether she was granted a degree. It doesn't matter if she participated in a graduation ceremony, or even if she got a diploma -- did she meet the criteria to be granted the degree that Antioch recognizes?

Antioch and Tullisse Murdock says she did not graduate -- meaning she didn't get a diploma, and did not earn the degree:

But Ms. Hamilton, the Antioch spokeswoman, told The Times that it had spoken with Ms. Murdock, and that there was no such special arrangement with Ms. Reade.

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[PS9]

Secret degree? Ha OK.

 

[Chindogg]

I think there is some splitting of hairs about a diploma. The issue isn't whether she got a piece of paper, it's whether she was granted a degree. It doesn't matter if she participated in a graduation ceremony, or even if she got a diploma -- did she meet the criteria to be granted the degree that Antioch recognizes?

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And that's the question I'm trying to figure out. If she didn't, how the hell did she get into law school in the early 2000s? They had computers and T1 lines back then. It's not hard to verify graduation records.

 

[Dalek]

Secret degree? Ha OK.

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Double Secret Degree

 

[Addie]

I'll just add this: there's no such thing as being "fast-tracked" to law school.

Unless, I guess, she means she was accepted under some kind of early admission status? This is really a situation where Reade really should be having her lawyer speak for her, because even this slice of the chronology is so muddled and uses terms of art that ... aren't actually terms of art, so no one knows what she actually meant.

Let me also add: she should've been letting Wigdor speak for her the moment Wigdor agreed to represent her. That's the point of having a lawyer experienced in these things!

 

[Deleted member 64609]

I don't think anyone has an issue if they are supporting survivors and victims right? It would be dumb to try to strike some artificial arbitrary balance in that regard where people dismissive or downplaying claims have to be treated the same as people on the other side. It's not a court of law where all sides are equal, and in fact trying to attain that is almost always going to be worse for victims who are already at a disadvantage with the deck stacked against them. I'm totally cool with giving victims and advocates against rape culture and sexual assault a better shake but that's just me, I don't think it'll kill us.

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Edit: nevermind, don't want to contribute to the derail.

 

[Armadilo]

If you're talking about the Chancellor at Antioch she said she worked with, NYT talked to the Chanceller and she denied it

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Oh, then yeah damn, definitely deserves a yikes.

 

[SJurgenson]

And that's the question I'm trying to figure out. If she didn't, how the hell did she get into law school in the early 2000s? They had computers and T1 lines back then. It's not hard to verify graduation records.

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Yeah, that's the interesting question Seattle University needs to answer -- what due-diligence did they do to validate she actually graduated from Antioch?

I've heard of universities being lax on that sort of thing and finding out later, but this does seem odd.