Spider-Man: Homecoming in Dolby Vision OMG
Edit: my first introduction to 4K HDR for movies was UHD discs played last night on the X1X and wow that was a mistake. Not sure if it's the player or the settings I had going but Dolby Vision thru VUDU is absolutely amazing. No way I could ever go back to my plasma.
Samsung 2018 65" Q9FN Initial Impressions:
I have had some time to game and watch a few movies on my new Q9 Samsung. This is my first ever Samsung set as I have always owned Sony sets until late last year when I bought my LG E7 65" Screen. My impressions/comments are based on primarily gaming, with a few movies that I watched and comparing them with my E7 & ZD9 that I ran the same content to get a reference on how the Samsung stacks up to arguably the best LCD TV to date and a great OLED screen.
Overall, I am very impressed. Samsung has found a way to take features from both the ZD9 and it's ability to hit very high NIT counts in SDR and HDR content and from the LG OLED impressive color reproduction and black level (to a certain extent) to make a set that is a great marriage of both technologies. I am not suggesting that the Samsung has the same black level of a OLED as that is part of the tech of OLED that it can turn off at the pixel level for that perfect black. What I am seeing is something that is extremely close. I ran Black Panther and The Martian UHD disks via a Samsung UHD player on all 3 sets and they were almost identical between the Q9 and the LG. Colors really popped on both due to the true black on the OLED and the almost OLED level black of the Samsung. In both movies, I detected nearly no infringement of the black bars on the Samsung with a rare occasion of a light source that slightly had an impact, but it was very brief and the only time it happened watching both movies. Of course on the OLED there was ZERO infringement of the black bars. On the ZD9 the black bars were not as inky black as the Q9 or the OLED and there were a lot more situations where the black bars would become lighter, not by much, but was easily seen. I also noticed as did my wife that the colors were not as impactful on the ZD9 when compared to the OLED and the Q9. It still looked great, but when you have a nice deep black on a panel, colors, especially during the vehicle night time chase in Black Panther where they are in a city with a ton of light sources, it just really popped on the Q9 and the OLED. If I had to choose which one looked the best, it would be hard to do. They both (Q9 and OLED) looked very good with the brightness level and HDR highlights going to the Q9, but deeper black to the OLED, even though the Q9 was very close. The Q9 has done what only the LG OLED has done and that is when in a very dark room, watching a letter box UHD movie and all you see is the image in between the black bars and everything else disappears. On the ZD9 as good as it is, in a pitch black room, you could still see the faint black bars, where the LG and Q9 the rest of the set just disappears.
For gaming, which is the primary use for me, I am equally impressed with the Q9 performance. In short, the Q9 is giving me the almost perfect black level of the OLED with rich color reproduction that the OLED's can provide due to the true black but with the brightness levels of the ZD9. This is for me the biggest win for the Q9. It is the ability of the set to give you near OLED black level with brightness in both SDR and HDR of a LCD screen. Games like Forza Horizon 3 just looked fantastic. My wife, which is not into TV's like I am when coming into the game room said "WOW, it looks as good as it did on your LG, but brighter". That is a good way to sum it up. The Q9 gives me the feeling of when I got my LG and was blown away on Forza Horizon 3 when you are driving around Surfers Paradise on a clear night with the buildings lit up and all the different light sources while the sky around the buildings staying nice and black, but the Q9 takes it a step further with the higher level of brightness it can achieve with it being a LCD, especially the HDR highlights it is able to hit. When I first tired my E7 OLED, one thing that blew me away is parking my car near a light pole and seeing that pure black and the light from the light pole not causing blooming that you get from a typical LCD. The Q9 is extremely close to this. The ZD9 on the other hand would have some more blooming, but the Q9 is almost identical to the OLED. While not 100% identical to the OLED it is extremely close on how Samsung was able to get with light sources against a black background. The next game I tested was Gears of War 4 and it was another example of hitting great level of black performance with incredible color reproduction and brightness levels. I played around in Act 3 which imho was the best use of HDR and playing with Dark/bright areas. It just looked fantastic. Again, it was extremely similar to my LG, where the colors just popped and areas that needed to be black were black without crushing them and then having the sets ability for brightness that the ZD9 can produce.
As you can tell, I am very pleased with the set so far. It really is a true combination of the ZD9 & LG OLED in one set. You get the benefits of great black level performance with the brightness levels achievable on a LCD. That is not to say that the LG or the ZD9 are bad sets, they are fantastic. As you read through my impressions, a lot of similarities are tied to the OLED. When I first bought my E7 the only nagging thing was the SDR and more so the HDR brightness. The black level, color reproduction and how great games looked on the E7 were fantastic but I wanted that HDR brightness and so I bought the ZD9. While the ZD9 did not have the black level of the OLED it provided that fantastic brightness that I enjoy at the cost of black level. Again, not horrible, the ZD9 produces a good level of black, but not what the OLED can do. The Q9 gets the closest I have seen outside of OLED with black level.
I do have some slight banding on my set however, but I really have to look for it. I have yet to see it in movies however and in gaming, it is only when it is dusk/early night time and I have to stop to look for it. I am not sure if this is something that will bug me or not moving forward. I know it is there, but I also need to look for it and for example, playing Forza Horizon 3, I have to come to a complete stop and pan the camera around to see it. Oddly, like my E7 it does not appear during daytime or during the majority of content while playing a game, it is primarily during that dusk/early nighttime that it appears, much like on my E7 which also has banding. I am not sure if I want to play the panel lottery and get a worse panel. I do have a 45 return window with Best Buy and if I did it would be for another Q9 as I am really impressed with it. Outside of that, that is the only major issue other than my Denon receiver, like almost all Denon owners, the Samsung and Denon do not play nice. Denon released a firmware for the highest end models that resolves a EDID issue with the Samsung. This causes the Denon not to be able to pass a 4k/60 HDR signal to the TV. So what I had to do is use my Denon and plugged into the TV's HDMI Arc input and my Samsung UHD and Xbox One X into HDMI 3 & 2. I then have to have the TV output audio to the receiver and video to the TV. What I do loose is the ability to run Atmos via my receiver. I can still get my 7.2 sound. This has been a pain in the ass though and I hope that Denon releases the firmware soon for the rest of the line of receivers.
The other neat thing about the Q9 is the auto detection of game mode. I typically will use my Samsung UHD player, but sometimes I have it hooked up in another room and I use my Xbox One X for UHD movies. The Q9 will change the Picture mode based on the content. So if you are playing a game, the Q9 will automatically go into Game Mode. If I quit a game and go to a UHD movie it switches Game Mode off and goes to the Movie Preset. It is pretty neat function. I also tested the Freesync and it does work and available on both the Xbox One X as an option ad the TV. I have not noticed anything special though as I believe a game needs to be made for it. But the feature is fully available for it. I also have to say that the initial Set up is pretty impressive. Samsung has made a very nice UI with a very easy to follow set up process. Just looked really well done. I also like the Auto detect of devices from my Denon receiver to the Xbox One to the Samsung UHD. As soon as you plug it in, turn it on, it auto detects what the device is and creates an icon for it. The overall UI and features are very well done. I am still playing around with the game motion plus. I notice in Forza Horizon 3 that the outline of the mini map goes a little haywire and moves a little on very rare occasions, but it impacts on how smooth the game feels. The game motion plus almost makes the game feel like it is running at a higher frame rate than intended. It is a very neat feature that does add a little input lag, but results are very good and makes the game feel smoother. As mentioned it does introduce a weird anomaly with the outline of the mini map in FH3, but it happens does not happen much at all, but something I noticed after a while. I am still messing with settings and testing this feature. According to Rtings and I will just copy/paste what they said " On the 2018 QLEDs, Samsung has added new options for Game Mode including the ability to interpolate lower frame rate games up to 120Hz. To enable motion interpolation select 'Game Motion Plus Settings'. From there you can adjust the 'Blur Reduction' and 'Judder Reduction' sliders to whichever you prefer. To interpolate low frame rate games up to 60 Hz, set 'Judder Reduction' to 10, and 'Blur Reduction' to 0. To interpolate up to 120 Hz, set both sliders to 10. There is a small increase in input lag when using these options, but it is still low." Speaking of input lag, yeah, this is set is very low and things feel very snappy. I don't have a meter to test, but it is extremely responsive and feels great.
As stated when I started this post, I am overall very impressed with the set. It has only been 2 days and things can and may change. I have the thoughts of the banding, but not sure if it is enough of an issue that I can live with it. Outside of that I have no clouding and DSE is not detectable. I have the issues with the Denon/Q9 handshake which is annoying since I cannot run my Atmos configuration (well I can with the Samsung UHD player since it has a separate Audio out for the receiver) primarily for gaming until Denon has the firmware update. I am still messing with game motion plus and then there is the Freesync/VRR that I have yet to truly mess with or understand. So those are my initial impression. If you have any questions, fire away.
I probably won't get to that Vincent video tonight. Anyone able to provide a couple high level thoughts?
Like cooldawn had never seen that before on mine either so that's very cool that the cycle cleaned it all up so that it's now the way it should be, yeah I'd just keep an eye on it for a bit as I'd think something like that picture would come back quickly if it was even going to.Alright, thanks! I'll keep that A1 under surveillance... it has a 2 years warranty so if anything goes wrong I'll get it replaced.
The image is very good right now. I am so happy !!!
- As he mentioned in other videos, he is not happy that Samsung is using a non-reference brightness curve.
- C7 has better viewing angles.
- C7 was better for 480p upscaling. For 1080p they were equal.
- He was surprised that the Q9 was almost as good as the C7 for dark room viewing, provided you sit directly in front of the TV. He saw almost no haloing, but there less near-black detail.
- Each has its weaknesses with uniformity. Q9 has dirty-screen effect on bright fields whereas the C7 has vertical banding on near-black fields.
- Q9 is better for bright room viewing because it has a better anti-reflective filter and higher brightness.
- Q9 is better for gaming, due to VRR, lower input lag, better BFI, auto low-latency mode, and no risk of burn-in.
- Overall the two are much closer than last year's models.
Given that the tone of his previous Q9 video seemed pretty negative, I was surprised that he seemed more positive about it in this video.
- As he mentioned in other videos, he is not happy that Samsung is using a non-reference brightness curve.
- C8 has better viewing angles.
- C8 was better for 480p upscaling. For 1080p they were equal.
- He was surprised that the Q9 was almost as good as the C8 for dark room viewing, provided you sit directly in front of the TV. He saw almost no haloing, but there less near-black detail.
- Each has its weaknesses with uniformity. Q9 has dirty-screen effect on bright fields whereas the C8 has vertical banding on near-black fields.
- Q9 is better for bright room viewing because it has a better anti-reflective filter and higher brightness.
- Q9 is better for gaming, due to VRR, lower input lag, better BFI, auto low-latency mode, and no risk of burn-in.
- Overall the two are much closer than last year's models.
Given that the tone of his previous Q9 video seemed pretty negative, I was surprised that he seemed more positive about it in this video.
Edit: Should have said 'C8', not 'C7'.
How is it possible Rtings is using OLED light level of 17 for HDR?
Just watched Spiderman Homecoming in Dolby Vision. It's lit.Just went from watching Fury Road in Dolby Vision in my living room to regular HD SDR on my bedroom LCD and the difference is like going from black and white to color. It literally doesn't even look like the same movie. 'm in shock
Like cooldawn had never seen that before on mine either so that's very cool that the cycle cleaned it all up so that it's now the way it should be, yeah I'd just keep an eye on it for a bit as I'd think something like that picture would come back quickly if it was even going to.
Nice! Try out some big 4K HDR on that sweet TV! :)
- As he mentioned in other videos, he is not happy that Samsung is using a non-reference brightness curve.
- C8 has better viewing angles.
- C8 was better for 480p upscaling. For 1080p they were equal.
- He was surprised that the Q9 was almost as good as the C8 for dark room viewing, provided you sit directly in front of the TV. He saw almost no haloing, but there less near-black detail.
- Each has its weaknesses with uniformity. Q9 has dirty-screen effect on bright fields whereas the C8 has vertical banding on near-black fields.
- Q9 is better for bright room viewing because it has a better anti-reflective filter and higher brightness.
- Q9 is better for gaming, due to VRR, lower input lag, better BFI, auto low-latency mode, and no risk of burn-in.
- Overall the two are much closer than last year's models.
Given that the tone of his previous Q9 video seemed pretty negative, I was surprised that he seemed more positive about it in this video.
Edit: Should have said 'C8', not 'C7'.
You forgot the most important part. Samsung crushes black details to keep the black levels. If they fixed this, the black levels would rise.
Samsung is also dimming light sources in dark scenes to keep the backlight algorithm from turning on too many neighboring zones.
Yeah, and I don't really understand why they have it so low. Mine's set to 40.
You forgot the most important part. Samsung crushes black details to keep the black levels. If they fixed this, the black levels would rise.
Samsung is also dimming light sources in dark scenes to keep the backlight algorithm from turning on too many neighboring zones.
Yeah, and I don't really understand why they have it so low. Mine's set to 40.
What happens is the TV is no longer able to show you the specular highlight details of the nitts above the tvs performance. Its not so bad. Its just plain white, instead of near white. Almost unperceivable. The 2018 LG Oleds have now a technique that tone maps to protect the details of specular highlights without having to match the brightness nitts.how do TVs map actual light output to HDR input? eg if dolby vision is up to 4000 nits, but the TV tops out at 1000.
Would the TV map so that 4000 input = 1000 output, or would they take 1000 input = 1000 output and anything higher is clipped?
And I'm curious why they go for absolute nit values. Surely most TVs aren't calibrated in homes to provide actual nits, and viewing situations change (eg you may have lots of ambient light). Absolute values seems an odd measure when people won't be viewing in controlled environments.
As an aside from that - do HDR specs specify an expected level of ambient light for viewing? And is there any way for a home user to do basic calibration of brightness so eg SDR tops out at 100nits?
I just saw this, sorry! I think its a Samsung JU6300 or 6400. One of the older ones that doesn't do HDR.Burn in is something that may occur over a long period of time, so this is a defective screen and should be replaced.
Can you tell me the model of your TV?
I just saw this, sorry! I think its a Samsung JU6300 or 6400. One of the older ones that doesn't do HDR.
Haha awesome. Thanks for all the input i really appreciate it.The X900E seems to have better input lag than your current TV.
Yeah wait for Black Friday. Hopefully the 2018 models will be discounted by then. Although you can't go wrong with LGs 2017 OLEDs.Will be moving into my own place again around August. Should I wait until black friday/winter to buy a new tv?
Looking at higher end models(high budget as outlined by OP). Been reading the OP and learning about OLED. What do you guys recommend?
how do TVs map actual light output to HDR input? eg if dolby vision is up to 4000 nits, but the TV tops out at 1000.
Would the TV map so that 4000 input = 1000 output, or would they take 1000 input = 1000 output and anything higher is clipped?
And I'm curious why they go for absolute nit values. Surely most TVs aren't calibrated in homes to provide actual nits, and viewing situations change (eg you may have lots of ambient light). Absolute values seems an odd measure when people won't be viewing in controlled environments.
As an aside from that - do HDR specs specify an expected level of ambient light for viewing? And is there any way for a home user to do basic calibration of brightness so eg SDR tops out at 100nits?
I'm trying to find a way to get my mom off of cable, but I'm concerned that a Netflix-esque selection process will be difficult for someone who has been just flipping through channels for decades.
Anyone have a suggestion? I hear that Roku is supposed to be the most user-friendly.
If your mom is anything like mine, she'll go running back to cable within 2 weeks. I gave mine a Roku, set up accounts for her and showed her how to use it but those are hard habits to change.
The only game I've spent a significant amount of time with so far on my B7 is Destiny 2 on the One X, but I feel like with HDR on it's way too bright to where I need to take a break for a while or else my eyes will hurt.
Is that corrected by dialing down the OLED light? I'm not playing in Game mode because I didn't notice a difference with input lag, just on the default Standard HDR picture setting.
Idk maybe I'm just not sensitive to it? It just looks so good with out game mode on. I'll play some in game mode tonight and see what difference it makes. For me I'd rather have the full visual fidelity over 20ms difference. If I was playing a platformer I'd probably turn it on but a shooter I can deal.You didn't notice a difference in input lag?!
Yes, I believe lowering OLED light will reduce HDR brightness.
My B7 is just a little over a month old and I guess I already have burn-in? I've been babying it, going as far as to not even be playing games with constant HUDs on it. However about 4 days ago I had my PC pulled up on it as I wanted to play some PC games, however they were older games with poor PC versions so I had to troubleshoot, download patches, etc.
After everything was said and done about 6 hours had passed and it dawned on me; the windows 10 task bar was on the screen the entire time (wasn't set to auto-hide). Ever since the very bottom of the screen has had a darker shade to it versus the rest of the picture. I have watched and played plenty of varied content since, and have kept the taskbar off of the screen. I even ran the manual screen cleaning function. It's still there. My OLED light was only at 40. So am I boned or can it go away?
Idk maybe I'm just not sensitive to it? It just looks so good with out game mode on. I'll play some in game mode tonight and see what difference it makes. For me I'd rather have the full visual fidelity over 20ms difference. If I was playing a platformer I'd probably turn it on but a shooter I can deal.
Try the pixel refresher you should be good. And then set your taskbar to auto hide.My B7 is just a little over a month old and I guess I already have burn-in? I've been babying it, going as far as to not even be playing games with constant HUDs on it. However about 4 days ago I had my PC pulled up on it as I wanted to play some PC games, however they were older games with poor PC versions so I had to troubleshoot, download patches, etc.
After everything was said and done about 6 hours had passed and it dawned on me; the windows 10 task bar was on the screen the entire time (wasn't set to auto-hide). Ever since the very bottom of the screen has had a darker shade to it versus the rest of the picture. I have watched and played plenty of varied content since, and have kept the taskbar off of the screen. I even ran the manual screen cleaning function. It's still there. My OLED light was only at 40. So am I boned or can it go away?
Already did pixel refresher. Pretty sure it wasn't always there as I scrutinized the screen over the past month.Try the pixel refresher you should be good. And then set your taskbar to auto hide.
It's also possible that this darkness at the bottom was always there, and you're just now noticing because you frraked out about the task bar. The top of my B7 is slightly darker than the rest of the panel, with a bit of a yellow tint on an all white screen.
Not sure then, but I don't think the black task bar would burn in, it's the icons themselves that would do that. Maybe take a picture for us?Already did pixel refresher. Pretty sure it wasn't always there as I scrutinized the screen over the past month.
You forgot the most important part. Samsung crushes black details to keep the black levels. If they fixed this, the black levels would rise.
Samsung is also dimming light sources in dark scenes to keep the backlight algorithm from turning on too many neighboring zones.
That sucks. Everyday I am about to pull a trigger on an oled. Then these things pop up. Maybe I will just get a tcl 6 series and wait a few years till 2.1 is sorted then and see what the market is like then.Already did pixel refresher. Pretty sure it wasn't always there as I scrutinized the screen over the past month.
With video games "reference" is more subjective than with film, and Samsung has VRR + best in class input latency + no image retention.