Terry Gilliam really hates Black Panther
- Thread starter Dullahan
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Yeah, blockbusters tend to make way more at the box office than movies with less wide appeal. What's the relevant point you're trying to make there?
Who cares if people shitting on Black Panther dont mention those other movies? Why would it matter if they or you did? Theyre totally different from what BP is. Trying to compare them is stupid in the first place.
You're really on one right now.
The post I quoted said laser Spears are stupid, I just pointed to a beloved movie from 1994 that had them and nobody complained
He's a shitty person. But he's definitely not a shitty director.
The person I'm responding to is acting like I have no genuine vested interest in the representation of Africans.
Terry Gilliam speaks always in hyperbolic sentences and especially against blockbuster movies like he did in the posted article. Plus, I think the old months python crew was bashed by some BBC Head, because he wants to push for diversity and somehow argued with months pythons all white men crew.
He also filmed Time Bandits in Morocco.
I've had to listen to a father yell at his daughter in front of me because he would rather have her date an African than me. She was from Ghana.
Hurts even more when the disrespect is from someone who you would assume is an ally.
I don't think you really get me at all, but whatever. It's not that important if you do.
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Cannot roll eyes further. Imagine the internal fear he lives in daily.
So it's gonna be a shockwave of racist shit and BP got some racist shitpieces when it came out.
Nice of you to ignore all the other examples.
This whole back and forth is dumb anyways since spears werent even the only weapons shown in the film. Just the one youve honed in owned to make your ridiculous arguments.
"It gives young black kids the idea that this is something to believe in. Bullshit. It's utter bullshit."
I would love to see anyone try to defend this. Not "oh it's out of context" "but he's actually talking about the MCU in general" bullshit. Look at that quote right there. Read it out loud. Then try to think of any possible reason why that is acceptable for a white person to say. I can wait.
I would love to see anyone try to defend this. Not "oh it's out of context" "but he's actually talking about the MCU in general" bullshit. Look at that quote right there. Read it out loud. Then try to think of any possible reason why that is acceptable for a white person to say. I can wait.
What other examples? I guess somebody also pointed out Stargate, but I don't know what that is. And I can't really say whether or not it's an issue.
So, the spears and rhinos right? White guys from the 70s writing their idea of a fantasy African utopia with laser spears and war rhinos? Is that what's bothering you?
None of this context takes away that an old white man is fixing his lips to tell black folks what they should or shouldn't believe in.
I've already explained what I think. I've said it in specific detail. Feel free to read it. I don't feel like giving you a re-explanation when you jump to assuming I'm some racist white guy to relating me to some racist African guy.
Even if, and that's an extremely big if mind you, Terry means this in much the same way that people from Africa criticise the movie, he should realize that his white privelege doesn't extend to being able to share his opinions on why black people shouldn't like Black Panther.
I mean, I don't think the film pretends to be about Africa in any way shape or form. It is about African Americans having their culture and history stolen from them. It is a dream about what could have been had their lives not been stolen from them.
At least that's what I took from it. Other people no doubt take other things, but it's not really a movie for white people like me. We can come along for the ride and enjoy it, no doubt, but Terry should shut the fuck up before he talks about what Black people should or shouldn't draw from it.
I mean, I don't think the film pretends to be about Africa in any way shape or form. It is about African Americans having their culture and history stolen from them. It is a dream about what could have been had their lives not been stolen from them.
At least that's what I took from it. Other people no doubt take other things, but it's not really a movie for white people like me. We can come along for the ride and enjoy it, no doubt, but Terry should shut the fuck up before he talks about what Black people should or shouldn't draw from it.
Imagine thinking posting stale ass "Marvel movies aren't good" takes in marvel threads makes your opinions special or in the minority in any way
And
That's fair.
My opinion stands. You had no problems coming into a thread where a dude says some obviously derogatory shit, to also throw in "yeah I don't like this movie either because of these fantasy things" and then wonder why folks clap back at you.
That's fair.
My opinion stands. You had no problems coming into a thread where a dude says some obviously derogatory shit, to also throw in "yeah I don't like this movie either because of these fantasy things" and then wonder why folks clap back at you.
Well I can see your point, and I get your frustrations - but how did you feel about the other aspects of the movie that weren't spears?
Not sure why he feels the need to share that particular opinion with the world. Guess he just wants to be a provocateur or something. Seems a bit juvenile to me.
Just destroyed the disingenuous arguments of people stanning a racist and his white fragility.
You can't ignore the Norse thing because these movies are all connected and made for the same reasons, from the same source, and with the same ethos. Sure, spears are over associated with Africa, by the ignorant, but no one should have to short change their ideas to placate small-minded children. Spears are why Rome was so scary. The Dora Milaje use spears, and various melee weapons, in the books too. It's just a convention of comic books. proxima Midnight also had one. They only fire projectiles so the creators can justify using melee weapons in modern combat. It's always that way. Whether its Gambit and his staff, Odin and his spear, the Dora Milaje and their sonic spears, or even jedi and their blaster deflecting swords etc. Melee weapons are just way more visually interesting than guns and open up all sorts of options for action choreography.
I think the strongest parts of the movie were around Killmonger. I think many Africans want to disassociate themselves from African Americans. A lot of the older people in my family don't like being thought of as African American and have bought into some of the racial prejudice that exists around African Americans. A lot of it is survivor bias because they see how exceptional most African immigrants are, but the lazy Africans aren't going to somehow just make it to the US. So it gives a flawed comparison.
Anyways, I felt that was the strongest part of the movie. I wish they chose to scrap most of what the comic says about Black Panther. I'm not really interested in it being true to the comics. I wish they spent more time immersing in Wakanda itself. More than just some highlight shots. It's an action movie so I don't expect perfection. I think the movie would have removed most of my biggest issues if they at least removed the spear rifles, armored rhinos and the over-use of ani-morphing so many weapons and vehicles. Kind of wish they more strongly acknowledge that Wakanda's government is fucked and should not be a monarchy. Clearly a series of paranoid kings has allowed for too much harm for too long.
Because from what I could gather from the post I was replying to, Terry only seems to loss his mind over black people.
I think of the movie in similar terms as Thor. There is no reason Asgadians should be using swords and bows and shit, but it is cool, so they do.
See, If Wakanda were a typical nation in the movie, one that had existed with the world for 100's of years or even several decades, I might agree that it's a bit strange that they still use spears, albeit very advanced spears. But they are not a typical nation. They've been in isolation all this time so they have developed and stuck with their own way of doing things.
They do because they're based on a lore that was created hundreds of years ago and the comic and films are remaining true to that. Oh, and because they are GODS.
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory whataboutisms concerning race and colonialism, a severe history of similar dismissal
Theres the argument to be made about recent African politics. In post independence, African leaders used colonialism as a scapegoat to hide the fact they were pillahing their own countries. Kwame Nkruma being the first example. Now because of these early leadears usage of a victim narrative (despite that narrative being true) and the socialist wave across Africa, African governance is now strongman neo-patronage structures that work to keep Africa from developing. Given the full context of his remarks theres the possibility hes aligning with the very real movement against colonialism as a scapegoat and that the real issues lay in African corruption?
Of course, none of this is to downplay the effects of colonialism or neo-colonialism today. Just that within the African intellectual sphere (like George Ayyitay for example), they argue that blaming everything on that has lead to their current predicament of being pillaged by the mabenzies.
Still though, BP has every right to exist. What this guy ought to argue for is better representation of African politics. Though we also have Nigerian cinema for that.
Of course, none of this is to downplay the effects of colonialism or neo-colonialism today. Just that within the African intellectual sphere (like George Ayyitay for example), they argue that blaming everything on that has lead to their current predicament of being pillaged by the mabenzies.
Still though, BP has every right to exist. What this guy ought to argue for is better representation of African politics. Though we also have Nigerian cinema for that.
I've heard this argument before and it doesn't make sense to me. Even in isolation, a society as brilliant as Wakanda would recognize that the design of a spear does not work well for long-ranged firearms. The truth is that it was an aesthetic choice by the movie makers. It's as simple as that. It's frankly more insulting to say "oh well in isolation and not being exposed to other ideas, it totally makes sense that this African country wouldn't move past the design of a spear."
I know those are not your words, but that is the logical end of what you are alluding to.
I'd also love to see more of Wakanda. I think that the sequel will probably explore the government and society of Wakanda. Especially as that world looks post-snap/intervention and the first movie seems to have a lingering message that thing definitely have to change.
I can agree that the spears and Rhinos could certainly be interpreted in a less than generous way and if I were from Africa I'd be less likely to interpret it favorably as well, but I saw the spears and the animalism as a sorta of reclamation of sorts. Black people and the things we made are so often seen as inferior by western society so for the movie to take something that it seen that way and recontextualizing it as future tech felt interesting to me. The general woman whose name escapes me at this moment seemed to hint in that direction when she called guns uncivilized. It felt like trying to make the spear into a more symbolic weapon like Star Wars with lightsabers, though perhaps not as iconic or successful. There isn't much logic behind it I don't think, and with it being science fantasy there really doesn't have to be.
I think that a movie like this, where the people behind the screen went to such lengths to try and step out of the typical white aesthetic could be given a little bit more leeway. How'd you feel about the architecture and costuming?
When I want an opinion about the cultural relevance of Black Panther and how black people should feel about the movie Terry Gilliam is my first address.
Oh I know it was an aesthetic choice just like with Asgard. But just like Asgard, it can also be explained by the story. Asgardians and Wakandans have no need for guns or tanks. They have not existed in a world caught up in an arms race. Within the MCU we saw Lagos in Civil War. It was portrayed as a modern African city. Police had guns, no spears in sight.
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Like, we're never gonna move past the point that one is literally about gods based on ancient lore. That isn't going to be dismissed as if it's irrelevant. Mjoldnir, or however it is spelled, is not an aesthetic choice.
The citizens of Asgard are not all gods. They have just as much need for machine guns as Wakandans had pre BP which is none at all.
It's almost like Wakandans are not typical Africans. They live within a literal forcefield and few ever leave the country. I understand your point about how Africa is portrayed in a certain light in Western Media with spears and such. Similar to East Asia with mysticism. All I am saying is that within BP, that can easily be explained. Now, would it have been made better with all modern style weapons? That's another discussion.