Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
I've read some of Finnegans Wake. In so much as simply only reading the words on the pages counts as reading. Nope'd out of it eventually. I appreciate it exists but I wasn't getting anything from it and saw no purpose in continuing.

Don't understand the Gravity's Rainbow and Infinite Jest mentions in the thread - yes they're certainly challenging reads, but not obtusely so which seems to be the purpose of OP's search. They're just challenging in a traditional sense.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,271
Do you think that if you properly applied speech marks—or other speech-action delineation punctuation—to Towles or Pynchon or Vollman's work, that they would be any less enjoyable or artistic? If Cormac McCarthy started using punctuation properly, does that make the following paragraph from Blood Meridian worse?:

Does that really bring much more to the table than:


To add to the above, when looking for an excerpt I actually got the speech marks in the wrong places the first time because that paragraph is just hostile with regard to clarity.


Take a favourite of mine, Titus Groan, which, whilst punctuated to in a traditional manner, most would be hard pressed to consider it a conventional book:


The former is an objectively better format for readability. There is zero ambiguity that "Day in" is Rottcodd speaking, and not narrative text. That is an objective advantage that the format has over the latter. There is no way to argue against that. Subjectively, you can make arguments about the latter having a certain feel for certain people, but objectively it brings nothing to the table but ambiguity. Maybe the writer wants that, however, most of the writers above aren't trying to be ambiguous.

As for Joyce, let's take an example from Ulysses:

What are the advantages of that compared to:

You can argue that it doesn't make that much difference, however, the latter also allows you to write:

Or even, blasphemously to some:

Which obviously changes the meaning of the entire segment, but it gives you that flexibility in prose to bring entirely new kinds of flow or context in ways that are instantly understood by most without any extra processing. That flexibility is an objective advantage of speech marks. They don't have to be inverted commas either, many languages use guillemets « » which are just as good in my eyes because they do the job they're there to do. I'm no purist by any means.

I would also argue that Joyce's work is closer to poetry than prose, with all the baggage and benefits that come with that. I'm never going to use Joyce as an example of how to write a good story, because he doesn't write well, he writes cleverly, which is a very different thing. Honestly, I much prefer his love letters to Nora, they're the only things he wrote with the reader in mind.


Unironically his best work.
Art is rarely about what is objectively better. These are different experiences and inherently different because they are different. Sometimes it's as simple as how you as the reader experience the text. Sometimes the author just prefers it, or wants to borrow stylistically from another source. Sometimes the author just hates you, specifically. Sometimes it's deeper than that.

Clearly, if nothing else, the difference they make in your reading enjoyment should tell you that the choice is an impactful and meaningful one.

My point is that you should embrace it. You'll be better for it.

Participate as a reader. Find meaning in the choice. Or, ignore it. Either way is grand.

Frankly, your frustration with this is frustrating because there doesn't even have to be more to the choice of quote marks or em-dashes, and that doesn't make a book better or worse. That is just a silly way to think about what makes a book good.

Edit: More on topic, would people consider Nanni Balestrini's Tristano: A Novel for this? Every single copy is unique and numbered. Each chapter is made up of randomly ordered paragraphs from a pool of paragraphs created for that chapter. The paragraphs themselves are randomly generated out of cut up text from various novels and some textbooks, and all character names are replaced with one initial--so it's impossible to know, with certainty who is who at any time.

And as a reader, part of the game is how you make sense of the book you have in front of you. It's a bit like Finnegan's Wake in terms of readers participating in the '' Writing'' of the book that way.

It's not challenging in the same way some other books are, but it's a really different reading experience that is worth a look.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
AlgusUnderdunk
Dec 30, 2020
15,614
I've officially made it through the first chapter of Finnegans Wake, and honestly was NOT expecting the hurricane of puns and dirty jokes.

Also pleased whenever I can decode what a word actually refers to, and my favorite thus far is "Nobucketnozzler", which is a fun way of saying the name of King Nebuchadnezzar.
 
OP
OP
AlgusUnderdunk
Dec 30, 2020
15,614
Have you read any of Joyce's other stuff, like Ulysses or his love letters? The man was FILTHY. He loved to write dirty.
Haven't read anything else he wrote, but holy cow that was some absolute lewdness in just chapter one.

I do think from his prose thus far I'd probably really enjoy reading something he wrote that was easier to parse.
 

hockeypuck

Member
Oct 29, 2017
759
My sister-in-law got us Cain's Jawbone as a gift. I have no idea why, since she and my wife are on good terms. Shuffling through those printed card stock brought up feelings of deja vu, like some false memories of gathering up loose leaf college notes that scattered out of a manilla folder. Definitely not my genre. I salute you OP on your patience.