Do you agree that this is a useful example?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 13.5%
  • No

    Votes: 11 29.7%
  • What?

    Votes: 21 56.8%

  • Total voters
    37

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,157
Limburg
Hey Era,

I've been thinking about this for a while, and wanted to put my thoughts down here. Let me know any ways I'm wrong or oversimplifying or if I could make my argument stronger. Constructive criticism welcome!

Human Chimerism is a very interesting phenomenon where a multiple fetuses or zygotes fuse together in the womb. It can even happen with multiple fertilized eggs or multiple sperm fertilizing the same egg.

Genetic Chimerism:


the resulting fetus can widely vary and can be made of so many combinations it's mind boggling. This can lead to babies that have different DNA in different tissues. It can result in wildly diverse arrays of phenotypes and forms of expression.

I'm a biology enthusiast, but not a scientist. But I have read some research on this and I think it's fascinating. After learning this much about it, I am confident that sufficient education in this topic will dispel many key tenets of conservative ideology.

1. Twin Chimerism and identity

175352_3_010438960f078a327e84a726326913efc8a2bdaa.jpeg

*Taylor Muhl, singer-songwriter and example of human chimerism.

This type of chimerism is when two fetuses, fraternal or identical, are fused in the womb. It can occur if one fetus dies or it can occur at an earlier stage with two live fetuses/embryos/zygotes.The resulting human expressions can be wildly diverse.

it serves to undercut the conservative concepts of genetic heritage and racist myths that consider human value as tied to genetic ancestry. Some of us are more homogenous than others, but some individuals are very heterogenous and we call that chimerism.

these heterogenous people are often living normal lives with no one the wiser. This goes to show that our concept of "individuals" as being strictly defined by DNA + a soul is not even close to the whole picture. Some examples of chimerism are too clearly demarcated to deny that the biological definition of an individual is not necessarily clear. People develop on a spectrum and that development continues after birth and ultimately until death. People are fluid and shouldn't have to conform to any particular classification regardless of which tissues exhibit which DNA or some level of sex hormones.

In some cases, intersex individuals can be examples of chimerism or mosaicism. In fact, everyone should have a bit of mosaicism in the sense that we all carry a bit of our maternal DNA from the placenta and umbilical cords back in the womb. But many cases of "Differences of sexual Development" (DSD) or ambiguous genitalia can be results of twin chimerism. It's important to point out that this is not likely the case with the majority of intersex individuals or people that go on to become trans or go through gender reassignment. But a few of these cases result in men and women with entirely separate sets of gonads. Women with testicles in their abdomen, men with ova. All sorts of combinations have been observed. People with multiple penises or vaginas, people with mixed genetalia, any combination you could envision really. Which I will show dispels conservative myths about binaries in sex and gender.

Vestigial Twin Chimerism
foto31-1.jpg


this can also result in the "vestigial twin" phenomena. If two fetuses merge late enough, there can be a clearly dominant twin and a still attached vestigial twin. This is not for those with a weak stomach and I suggest you steel yourself before googling this as the image I used was one of the few that isn't slightly disturbing. Sometimes this is completely unseen and undetectable from anyone else's perspective. The mere existence of humans with these conditions or phenotypes goes to the heart of fundamental conservative misunderstandings of the way humans are and the reality around us.

2. The Soul and Bodily Autonomy

*disclaimer: I am not looking for a theological debate, just talking in terms of evidence and practicality. *

The Soul and concepts like it predate most religions and come from ancient philosophies of human dualism. But modern conservatives often push the idea that a soul is imbued at the moment of conception. Not only is this notion flawed, but it's actually inconsistent with much theology that conservatives often appeal to as an authority.

The idea that life begins at first breath is more recent, but not as recent as you think. In the Bible, there are verses that speak of life beginning at breath, not conception. Which is what most modern conservative anti-abortion rhetoric is based on. But the existence of chimerism and the overall facts shown by research into developmental biology should quickly dispel any conservative case against bodily autonomy rights.

Human_Carnegie_stage_1-23.jpg

*diagram of the 23 Carnegie stages of developmental biology

Just ask a conservative when life "begins". Many times they will insist that a zygote or embryo carries a soul and that aborting at any stage after would be paramount to murder, ect.

If you actually sit down and look at these stages of development, I think most conservatives would either say "conception" or be hard pressed to pick the point at which a soul becomes imbued into the fetus/zygote/embryo/blastocyst . And the existence of human chimeras completely neuters any attempt at conservative soul-mongering. Human chimerism can occur at or indeed before many of these developmental stages.

if conservatives believe a soul is imbued at conception, then what about genetic chimeras formed from separate sets of fertilized eggs? does the resulting chimera have two souls? If not, the are vestigial twins contain two souls in one body or is the other twin not alive? These questions underline a flaw in the conservative dualistic interpretation of reproduction.

3. Difference of Sexual Development

Human Chimerism and mosaicism shows us that an individual can have a biological sex that is not binary, but exists on a spectrum. You don't actually need genetics to tell us this, but many hardline anti gay, anti trans, and conservative people spout scientific sounding notions of there being only two sexes genetically. But we know this is wrong.

not only can there be karyotypes other than XY and XX, (such as XXY, XXX, XYY) but there can be differences in phenotype due to other genetic disorders. And of course, not all people who experience gender dysphoria have an underlying genetic disorder or specific karyotypes, but this is all in service of a point. We all know this if we've cracked open a college biology book, But conservatives like to couch the discussion in the frame of "disorders". The general pushback I've seen from the "skeptical right" is that we shouldn't consider genetic disorders or syndromes from having extra chromosomal karyotypes as other distinct sexes on a continuum.

But if we point out Chimeras, which are undeniable and documented, we can show them that in fact, some people are fundamentally composed of multiple distinctly homogenous parts that will never fit into their suffocating binary boxes. If human chimerism resulting in people with heterogenous sets of gonads, then we cannot continue to believe the binary paradigm they keep pushing. Gender isn't binary either, but most of conservative anti trans thinking has been based around his notion that they can "fall back" to biological sex as some binary refuge. This contradicts and refutes that idea.

For more information about how sex is not binary, please see the video below
 
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Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,412
I don't think most socially conservative people would care, they'd just write people with these conditions off as freaks of nature and ignore their implications on gender and bodily identity. They would claim that they are exceptions to the rule and not examples of how complex every one of us truly is. This is probably in part because most conservative viewpoints start with a conclusion and then search for evidence to prove it, rather than the other way around.
 
OP
OP
Clefargle

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,157
Limburg
I don't think most socially conservative people would care, they'd just write people with these conditions off as freaks of nature and ignore their implications on gender and bodily identity. They would claim that they are exceptions to the rule and not examples of how complex every one of us truly is. This is probably in part because most conservative viewpoints start with a conclusion and then search for evidence to prove it, rather than the other way around.

I know but I guess I'm optimistic about the coming generations if these facts can be instilled early with an improved education system.
 

Deleted member 60295

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 28, 2019
1,489
Why do you think conservative Christians write off entire branches of science without the slightest hesitation? That's the only way they're able to reckon with how much science has progressed. Which, predictably, has made them more and more insane as time had gone on.

Heres's a fun annecdote: I once read an evangelical sex negative book aimed at horny teenagers, which pushed the myth that - I am not joking here in the slightest - if people with dicks stop masturbating, within a month or so, their cum will actually dry out, and their sex drive will be reduced enough that wet dreams alone will suffice. See, waiting to have sex until marriage is actually a piece of cake!

(God almighty.)
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I really don't think conservatives, generally speaking, put that much philosophical consideration in to their politics. Same with liberals (obviously). But it is an interesting argument.
 
Dec 31, 2017
7,160
Uh, if hardcore conservatives understood the basic tenets of biology they wouldn't deny climate change, wouldn't claim that life begins as conception etc.

Good luck explaining mosaicism to them.
 

Sonicbug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,442
The Void, MA
"Satan put those people here to test your faith" or some other screwball argument. People live in the reality they want to live in, facts be damned.
 

Septy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 29, 2017
4,107
United States
I could easily see conservatives turning this argument into that people with different chromosomes get a free pass at being different but people with normal genes have no excuse.
 
OP
OP
Clefargle

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,157
Limburg
I could easily see conservatives turning this argument into that people with different chromosomes get a free pass at being different but people with normal genes have no excuse.

right, the technical argument only succeeds when paired with an ethical argument for why we shouldn't be concerned with what's between people's legs.

If we aknowledge that sex is on a spectrum, then it follows that if we want a society to treat all the sexes equally, then we shouldn't try and invade the right to privacy and identity.

seeking to match preconceptions of sex/gender to genitals is not only technically incorrect but it's also harmful to society and ethically bankrupt
 

Davidion

Charitable King
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,345
I mean, you're not wrong OP. But anyone with a lick of critical thinking abilities would have known that "conservative culture" amounts to little more than malignant risk aversion and dogmatic anti-adaption distilled into some desperate moral play that only appeals if you're stupid enough to believe that the world is built on mega blocks, spoiled in the sun for ages.

Who's really surprised that conservatism in the modern age is little more than a dance between marks and the con-men who can make a buck off of them?
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
For me the science is all fine and well, but what I find truly compelling and helpful in my own understanding is lived experience, historical analysis, and social theory. I think people need new narratives and paradigms for changing their thinking, not just new data. If that makes sense.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I know but I guess I'm optimistic about the coming generations if these facts can be instilled early with an improved education system.
Teaching facts isn't really enough. We need cultural change and social transformation to undermine white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism. Science is a key aspect to the perspectives and solutions we need, but on a mass scale I don't think it's going to be what inspires people to live more compassionately, cooperatively, ecologically, etc.
 

Lord Fagan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,367
This is all quite intriguing and well written.
The problem OP is that one of the hallmarks of conservatism is the tendency to strongly simplify reality. This kind of extensive, open minded analysis cuts hard against that grain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this presentation isn't the way you're going to convince them they're wrong.
 

astroturfing

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,592
Suomi Finland
yeah i'm apparently a chimera, and i've read it's quite common. i remember one estimate of 10% of all people.. most unknowingly of course.

one nice summer day a decade or two ago my mom wanted to have a "talk", and just bluntly told me i have a twin inside me and "please don't be worried if teeth or weird hair start growing out your back, its just your twin". my reaction was to not fucking ever believe it not even to this day i mean what kind of fucking horror bullshit is that? gtfo mom come onnnn
 
OP
OP
Clefargle

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,157
Limburg
yeah i'm apparently a chimera, and i've read it's quite common. i remember one estimate of 10% of all people.. most unknowingly of course.

one nice summer day a decade or two ago my mom wanted to have a "talk", and just bluntly told me i have a twin inside me and "please don't be worried if teeth or weird hair start growing out your back, its just your twin". my reaction was to not fucking ever believe it not even to this day i mean what kind of fucking horror bullshit is that? gtfo mom come onnnn

very cool and interesting. It might never happen like that though if the merging took place early enough in development. But it's a very intriguing thing to learn about yourself I'd imagine
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
If conservative and religious people used science as a basis, they wouldn't have those absurd beliefs to begin with.

There's basically no biologists that are pro life.
The soul has been a dead theological concept for decades based on what we know about neuroscience.