The Force Awakens ruined the potential of the Sequel Trilogy (Hey, at least it's not a TLJ thread)

[Thatguy]

I thought at first the force awakens means the force itself awakens and can do even crazier stuff now. I thought we would be getting 10000 Jedi flying through the air in epic lightsaber battles and crazy force Geo storms. That would advance the story. Yeah it was just Rey becoming force sensitive and she's just ok. I would love to know what Snoke meant when he said "there has been an Awakening" but we'll never know now. Oh he was talking about Rey becoming force sensitive? That's really what he was talking about? That's it? Eh

 

[Medalion]

Sequel Trilogy was a mistake... I have no faith the final movie will deliver, at least to me.

 

[Halbrand]

Force Skype was nothing new. It was a very big part of KotOR 2's plot.

Spoiler

If only Rian had taken more than just that one thing from KotOR 2's plot

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Wait how?

 

[Thatguy]

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[TheFireman]

Her crew did trust her, look how little people were in the room with Poe, no one died during the mutiny, literally the only thing that led to people dying was Poe, Finn, and Rose's plan. Which Holdo had nothing to do with. Poe instigating is what caused a sudden mutiny. Not Holdo staying put.

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If Holdo didn't trust Poe enough to tell him her plans, why was she letting him do anything at all? Poe ignored leadership and got a bunch of people killed, so instead of putting him in a holding cell (which the movie established they had and could do) or even just assigning someone to watch over him, Leia demotes him, Holdo gives him the impression that everyone is going to die, and then they don't expect him to further rebel and cause trouble? I simply can't understand how that isn't a fuck up on Leia and Holdo's part. Yeah, sure, Poe, Finn and Rose's plan caused people to die. But they should have seen it coming. Hell, Leia and Holdo's demeanor afterwards made it seem like they expected him to rebel. Like why the hell is Holdo telling Leia that she likes that Poe's rebellious when that is literally the exact reason she has to sacrifice herself? Like she literally could have lived if she just fucking told him the plan, and she knows this, and she's just laughing it off.

 

[Superking]

TLJ is no masterpiece, but it was way better than TFA.

 

[CloudWolf]

Wait how?

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The link between Kreia and The Exile is pretty much the exact same thing conceptually as the link between Rey and Kylo, down to actually physically feeling stuff the other one experienced.

The only difference is that in TLJ the link was set up by a third party, while in KotOR 2 it was the Exile's own power creating the Force bond.

 

[Paul]

I read the whole OP and I agree, the setup of TFA is just utterly bizzare in how much it destroys legacy of OT.
Unfortunately TLJ did not improve things, on the contrary, all of its attempts at "originality" were even worse.
It sucks because the budget is there, competent direction is there, good actors are there, but it is all for nothing because the scripts are just terrible.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I thought at first the force awakens means the force itself awakens and can do even crazier stuff now. I thought we would be getting 10000 Jedi flying through the air in epic lightsaber battles and crazy force Geo storms. That would advance the story.

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None of what you just described involves a story in anyway shape or form, everything you just said was just shit happening for the sake of being cool.

I would love to know what Snoke meant when he said "there has been an Awakening" but we'll never know now. Oh he was talking about Rey becoming force sensitive?

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Watch the sequence of events in the film, Rey involuntarily used the force multiple times in the film before that conversation. Listen to the sound cue when it cuts to Rey after they run out of options, look at her heavy breathing and expression change:


Her body language, expression and heavy breathing indicates that it happens again here when she gets the timing perfectly right on this button press:


In both of these instances Finn asks Rey how she did what she did, she replies both times, "I don't know." Because she doesn't know that she's force sensitive.

Immediately afterwards we see the convo between Kylo and Snoke, with the latter asking the former if he felt the awakening...i.e, Rey using the force, that's also how Snoke was able to sense that the droid on the millenium falcon.

They couldn't have telegraphed this any harder if they tried, but they still felt the need to clarify it in TLJ, (just like they needed to clarify why Rey won that lightsaber duel for those that didn't get it.....):
Luke: Why are you here?
Rey: Something inside me has always been there...but now it's awake, and I'm afraid. I don't know what it is, or what to do with it, but I need help.

 

[Halbrand]

Might have been interesting if Ben was being turned to the dark side through the influence of the Emperor's spirit as a revenge against Luke for turning Vader.

 

[El Bombastico]

Might have been interesting if Ben was being turned to the dark side through the influence of the Emperor's spirit as a revenge against Luke for turning Vader.

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I thought people hated Dark Empire...

 

[Crossing Eden]

If Holdo didn't trust Poe enough to tell him her plans, why was she letting him do anything at all?

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She literally told him to stay at his post. She got fed up when he personally insulted her and that's when she stopped and had him removed from the bridge.

Poe ignored leadership and got a bunch of people killed, so instead of putting him in a holding cell (which the movie established they had and could do) or even just assigning someone to watch over him, Leia demotes him, Holdo gives him the impression that everyone is going to die, and then they don't expect him to further rebel and cause trouble?

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Leia didn't put him in a holding cell or have someone watching them because he accomplished something, the attack ended up destroying a dreadnought.

simply can't understand how that isn't a fuck up on Leia and Holdo's part. Yeah, sure, Poe, Finn and Rose's plan caused people to die. But they should have seen it coming

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Yes it's the responsibility of the higher ups to anticipate a dude holding a mutiny because he's being a brat.

Like why the hell is Holdo telling Leia that she likes that Poe's rebellious when that is literally the exact reason she has to sacrifice herself?

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She was always going to sacrifice herself.

Might have been interesting if Ben was being turned to the dark side through the influence of the Emperor's spirit as a revenge against Luke for turning Vader.

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That sounds so terrible.

 

[Einchy]

I thought at first the force awakens means the force itself awakens and can do even crazier stuff now. I thought we would be getting 10000 Jedi flying through the air in epic lightsaber battles and crazy force Geo storms. That would advance the story. Yeah it was just Rey becoming force sensitive and she's just ok. I would love to know what Snoke meant when he said "there has been an Awakening" but we'll never know now. Oh he was talking about Rey becoming force sensitive? That's really what he was talking about? That's it? Eh

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Ew.

 

[DavidDesu]

I am disappointed that Disney rushed into making this new trilogy. Remember TFA actually had a delay asked for by JJ. They literally wanted a new trilogy to start instantly but with seemingly little if any forward thinking about what it would be. At the very least if George Lucas was going to create a new trilogy he would have had an arc in mind (and I hate the prequels so much I truly hope they just remake them at some point with better directors at the helm and a different take on Anakins arc).

I think that definitely is the problem here, there has been no direction from Disney what they wanted this to be and have let each director make up the entire thing as they went along.

As a result JJ gave us what I consider a really well made fun Star Wars film that pressed lots of the right buttons and crucially, did introduce at least some really fantastic new characters. We couldn't have hope for a better villain in Kylo Ren. Perfectly cast. A great analogy for the modern day alt-right (whether intentional or not), a conflicted cry baby quick to anger maniac. We could easily have gotten a carbon copy of Vader but I'm so glad we didn't. He's literally someone trying to copy Vader but has far too many issues of his own to see him capable of doing it right. We also got Finn and Rey who I love too.

Now onto TLJ, again they let another director completely write the script and take the trilogy down his own path. While it's great Disney are letting directors have free reign like this it does call into question just how much they care about what they're actually producing (given that Treverrow was lined up to write and direct the last installment of the trilogy, a director who really just didn't feel like he was remotely good enough, from most evidence. That's worrisome that Disney just want films. They have a story group but as has been pointed out before they don't actually seem to do an awful lot other than just piece together what others are doing. Wasn't there something about Holdo, quite a big element of her character was written about in a book but none of that came through in TLJ? The story group not really doing much of a job there to help guide a more consistent universe across their media.

All I'm saying is you can't blame the directors so much as you can blame Disney for having no direction decided upon in advance. And yeah I suppose when I say Disney I mean Lucasfilm, they're interchangeable at this stage. Lucasfilm has free reign but if Disney wanted something done Lucasfilm would have to oblige, so they're both at fault here.

I like both films for different reasons and maybe TFA did play it too safe leading to TLJ taking risks to spice things up again. Honestly I like both films for achieving certain things well and I dislike both films for feeling like they squandered some of their potential, but all for different reasons.

Just don't blame the directors.

 

[Deleted member 15227]

TFA and TLJ were huge disappointments for me.

 

[Crossing Eden]

At the very least if George Lucas was going to create a new trilogy he would have had an arc in mind

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This is objectively not true.

I think that definitely is the problem here, there has been no direction from Disney what they wanted this to be and have let each director make up the entire thing as they went along.

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Literally how the ST AND PT were made. The direction from Kathleen Kenedy

The story group not really doing much of a job there to help guide a more consistent universe across their media.

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Yea again this isn't true at all.

 

[Van Bur3n]

100% concurred, BossAttack, and a point I've made myself time and time again. Despite the praise TFA gets because it's more of the same, in playing it as safe as it does, repeating the exact plot of the original, it completely ruined any potential of creating something fresh for SW, leaving TLJ on a crash course, and the trilogy as a whole.

The root of the problem all started with TFA and Abrams. Too many people aren't seeing it on account of TLJ ruffling their jimmies too hard. It has all been built on a shitty foundation.

 

[Paradox House]

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Question: Why is Luke's hair jet black?

 

[El Bombastico]

Thread title needs to be changed, this has been a TLJ thread since the first post.

 

[takriel]

I agree. I'm so tired of the Rebels vs. Empire conflict. Why the fuck would they basically retell this same story in a new coat? That's why I'm stoked for Rian's trilogy.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Question: Why is Luke's hair jet black?

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Crushed blacks on the gif.

 

[DavidDesu]

This is objectively not true.


Literally how the ST AND PT were made. The direction from Kathleen Kenedy


Yea again this isn't true at all.

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Not.going to get into a pointless argument but all I'll say is that OF COURSE GEORGE LUCAD HAD A PLAN IN MIND. He had ideas for his characters and where they would end up. Did some of that change, yeah, but he had some framework to work from. They've gone into the new trilogy with NO PLAN. No plan of anything whatsoever. And that's where all the complaints and animosity are stemming from.

 

[Laguna]

I completely agree with the OP, but I would add that TLJ destroyed more potential than TFA.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

The most laughable and nonsensical idea fans have ever taken as "law" is "it had to be a 'remake' to get fans onboard after the prequels"

.... yeah right.

 

[m_dorian]

I agree with OP's points.
Haven't watched TLJ yet because of TFA. I liked Rogue One better.
TFA needs its own prequels to stand as a story and good luck with that, everything seems like a set up for making TFA feel like Episode IV because money and SW fanbois.

 

[Cassius Bright]

I enjoyed TLJ more than TFA but after rewatching both, something seemed off with me.

Am I the only one who feels like Daisy Ridley gave a much better performance in the TFA than the TLJ? There were times when she seemed incredibly wooden in the TLJ, whereas I really enjoyed her spirit and energy in the first film.

 

[Einchy]

OF COURSE GEORGE LUCAD HAD A PLAN IN MIND

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[BossAttack]

more or less what i've been saying the whole time: love, hate, or be ambivalent about the new movies, they're really not a "sequel trilogy". there's virtually no interest in expanding the lore or continuing an established story arc, all it knows is it wants to be Star Wars.

i've just accepted "the saga" ended with RotJ and there never truly was an episode 7, instead we got a soft reboot with some "legacy characters" to chaperone the experience for anybody born before the mid 90s or so. these movies just aren't for me and it is what it is

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Yep.

The most laughable and nonsensical idea fans have ever taken as "law" is "it had to be a 'remake' to get fans onboard after the prequels"

.... yeah right.

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Agreed. It's such a laughable excuse. They had to remake the older movies with the old cast only the fanboys would care about after the last set of super commercially successful films got made fun of in the internet. The only way to draw new fans in was to start with pure nostalgia.

Talk about having contempt for your own fan base and zero confidence in your own filmmaking ability.

 

[Deleted member 4247]

No, I think it set it up pretty well. Then TLJ went "nah, fuck that" with much of it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not.going to get into a pointless argument but all I'll say is that OF COURSE GEORGE LUCAD HAD A PLAN IN MIND. He had ideas for his characters and where they would end up. Did some of that change, yeah, but he had some framework to work from. They've gone into the new trilogy with NO PLAN. No plan of anything whatsoever. And that's where all the complaints and animosity are stemming from.

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He genuinely didn't. Literally the biggest twists of the SW series are the result of massive changes to characters, rewrites, etc.. Watch the ending of ANH, it's not in anyway shape or form a cliffhanger:


SW was NEVER planned to be a trilogy of films from the start. Such a concept didn't even commonly exist back then let alone planned out trilogies.

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Exactly.

The most laughable and nonsensical idea fans have ever taken as "law" is "it had to be a 'remake' to get fans onboard after the prequels"

.... yeah right.

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How is this nonsensical, this was literally the objective. There's an entire generation that either didn't watch the OT, grew up on the PT, or haven't seen SW films. A reminder of what made the series good in the first place was absolutely needed.

 

[Hank Hill]

why can't they all just be considered good?

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Because not all of them are good?

 

[Deleted member 8579]

I think what TFA did was safe and rushed but they had the right idea to have a splinter of the Empire around but they botched the New Republic, they didn't need to reset the galaxy that clean and harshly, sending us back to the OT in all but name. TLJ just went the whole hog to finish it off and feels more like the last hour of TFA if it was a 3hr epic that cut nonsense like the smugglers and Maz. Both films have enjoyable moments but they took a really boring route that has barely gone anywhere. 5 hours, you had the old cast, the Disney money, it's great to have Star Wars back and better than the prequels but I can't stop thinking they should have done way better, nostalgia isn't an excuse and what did Rian even do that deserves so much praise.

 

[Crossing Eden]

what did Rian even do that deserves so much praise.

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He, like the old cast of characters, passed the torch.

 

[El Bombastico]

why can't they all just be considered good?

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The day the Prequel Trilogy is considered "good" is the day Donald Trump is elected pres--.

oh...

 

[Angel DvA]

TFA was pretty bad but I still put it higher than TLJ.

Agreed, did not like that TFA was just New Hope with a coat of paint. I enjoyed TLJ more because at least it was original in its storytelling.

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but it wasn't original at all, the movie used a lot of what we've already seen in the Star Wars Universe, the only new elements like the hyperdrive kamikaze or the hyperdrive detector add for this movie was pure garbage and anti Star Wars.

 

[Civilstrife]

Sequel Trilogy was a mistake... I have no faith the final movie will deliver, at least to me.

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We will all be dead in our graves long before the final Star Wars movie.

For better or worse.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

OP you're crazy. TFA was a wonderful homage to the OT.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

How is this nonsensical, this was literally the objective. There's an entire generation that either didn't watch the OT, grew up on the PT, or haven't seen SW films. A reminder of what made the series good in the first place was absolutely needed.

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That it had to, that's the nonsensical part. That it was Lucasfilms objective is not something I've said anything about. I have not said anything about not reminding people of what made the series good in the first place. That is not the same as threading so close to ANH. And "having to do it to get fans onboard".

 

[shnurgleton]

The odd thing about TFA is that the super-safe reboot ends up feeling dangerously nihilistic. The galaxy seems doomed to strife and discord. TLJ pushes that to the brink, then pulls back with a theme of hope, but the problem is that the sequel trilogy made the galaxy into something where things happen to give the heroes something to do. Twisted as the prequels were, the decline and fall of the Republic felt organic. The failure of the New Republic, particularly the way in which it failed, makes it seem like the galaxy is run by grade-A morons.

Episode IX needs to do some real damn worldbuilding or i'm going to be quite miffed.

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This is it

Force Awakens was very contrived and the world there exists only for the characters, few of whom are actually interesting, to have adventures in

OP you're crazy. TFA was a wonderful homage to the OT.

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You are right and that is exactly the problem. We should be looking for something new, not just our favorite stories retold to us over and over forever

 

[Bold One]

TLJ is the probably the best one because it breaks everything down to makes more things possible moving forward,

The galaxy of TFA was a very small one, TLJ made it a whole lot bigger.

it was daring, imperfect, experimental and most importantly it was BOLD.

 

[BossAttack]

OP you're crazy. TFA was a wonderful homage to the OT.

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The OT didn't need a homage, it needed a sequel.

 

[ChrisJSY]

All I know is they've got one more movie to make a point and finish it.
We had questions after TFA, a setup, villains, goals; then we had a few of them completely dismissed and cut short, literally; unless we'll find out more in the next film.

 

[Occam]

The Force Awakens was a huge waste, starting with its premise: It completely negated the end of Return of the Jedi (and the entire struggle against the Empire). Turns out the Jedi didn't actually return and everything went back to how it was before Episode IV. No development for the old characters, either.
Now the movie itself was just a slightly redressed remix of Episode IV, with rebels fighting Empire 2.0 that just happens to rule the galaxy and have a new, even larger Death Star (which made zero sense).

Considering how badly Abrams bungled his second Star Trek movie (the third one sucked as well but was only produced by him), maybe he just isn't as great as many seem to think.

 

[BossAttack]

The Force Awakens was a huge waste, starting with its premise: It completely negated the end of Return of the Jedi (and the entire struggle against the Empire). Turns out the Jedi didn't actually return and everything went back to how it was before Episode IV. No development for the old characters, either.
Now the movie itself was just a slightly redressed remix of Episode IV, with rebels fighting Empire 2.0 that just happens to rule the galaxy and have a new, even larger Death Star (which made zero sense).

Considering how badly Abrams bungled his second Star Trek movie (the third one sucked as well but was only produced by him), maybe he just isn't as great as many seem to think.

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Sir, I need you to amend this statement. Star Trek Beyond is the best Trek movie in decades, the first true Trek movie of the Abrams universe.

 

[honest_ry]

 

[Mivey]

I feel TLJ saved the sequel trilogy and made me actually interested in it, whereas TFA was completely boring and without a coherent vision or message. Of course Jar Jar Abrams will completely ruin my hopes for a great finale and do his by the numbers bullshit again. I expect a completely soulless carbon-copy of Return of the Jedi.

Still, Rian has shown that he gets Star Wars like no other, and he gets to define the next trilogy, so I'm cautiosly optimistic about that one. I could still see Disney just scrapping it all and giving it to Jar Jar Abrams again, and again, and again . . .

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I have said it before, but I think this might just be Lucas dealing with certain ... issues he had in his life. Maybe he had an older sister that he adored a little too much, and this was his way of getting it out of his system.

 

[DosaDaRaja]

At this point I'm convinced that the only reason opinion on this movie is so divided is because fans somehow convinced each other that this is the 'Starwalker Saga', and began throwing a hissy fit when the MC is surprise, surprise, not a Starwalker!
Or that God Emperor Luke is not the god they thought he would be.
Or that Finn was an opportunistic ass until the end of the movie.
Or that the Resistance aren't all genius planners.
Or that Space Gollum was a shmuck.

Which is why I LOVED the movie.
Especially after the rather disappointing excessive fanservice that is TFA. The only good thing to come out of it are the new characters and a dead Han.
Fuck Han.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

OP is correct.

 

[Occam]

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"Today".

PS.
I actually saw The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi only one time each.

 

[BossAttack]

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I've never really got why this image is always trotted out to essentially rebut critique. Is it so strange that fans of a property would watch a film multiple times even if they considered it bad? I know plenty saw TPM muliple times with the hopes they could convince themselves it was good. Alas, it usually doesn't work.

Though I only needed to watch Rogue One once to know it was horrible.