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dojo32161

Member
Sep 4, 2019
1,914
I was spoiled this twist since I started GAA1 so I knew it was coming and I was ready for it. I am still really conflicted, on one hand, I actually really, really like the character, their presence in Case 4 made it an all time great in my books. In the other hand, I feel this reveal directly contradicts Ryu's character development in the first game and just makes Adventures feels even a bigger waste of time than I already thought it was. How can a reveal this contrived and sudden come from a story outline that was supposed to be fully thought of from the start? It just baffles me. Apollo's retconned backstories are only one step further than this shit.
I don't think it directly contradicts Ryu's character development? He didn't know Kazuma was alive, so all that growth and change was genuine.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
I don't think it directly contradicts Ryu's character development? He didn't know Kazuma was alive, so all that growth and change was genuine.
We should probably spoil that just in case.

Either way, you are right that it doesn't invalidate that growth and change, but it feels very cheap to make all his character development revolve around that event just to eventually completely go back on that and have Kazuma revive for the sequel. It just cheapens all the suffering and resolution that you could extrapolate from Ryonosuke's actions in Adventures, because I felt that is what they were going for with Runo with DGS, a protagonist that was trying to overcome grief and took the wish of his best friend of changing the legal system out of respect and love for him. And I liked that idea! You are right that still doesn't erase the fact Ryunosuke thinks he was dead, and in a game I really liked I would probably be defending the decision. But as someone with little love for Adventures it really just makes the overall narrative weaker and unfocused, in my opinion.

It also doesn't help that without Kazuma's death I have little to no idea about what Runo's character motivations are right now. He seems he is doing the lawyer thing just because he has been doing it for a while now and the game is playing up that he is confused on what the fuck is he supposed to do now. Again, it feels very unfocused, but maybe the ending pulls me through.

I think about the poor saps that had to wait 2 years to get Resolve with the original release...
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,296
I was spoiled this twist since I started GAA1 so I knew it was coming and I was ready for it. I am still really conflicted, on one hand, I actually really, really like the character, their presence in Case 4 made it an all time great in my books. In the other hand, I feel this reveal directly contradicts Ryu's character development in the first game and just makes Adventures feels even a bigger waste of time than I already thought it was. How can a reveal this contrived and sudden come from a story outline that was supposed to be fully thought of from the start? It just baffles me. Apollo's retconned backstories are only one step further than this shit.
Oh that part doesn't bother me. Kazuma coming back I felt was actually good for Ryu's character to figure out what he actually wants and to actually find out he's not just an inferior replacement for the real thing.

No, the thing that angered me was that Kazuma was convincingly dead and to make the twist work, Herlock was in on it. And you confront him and he's like I was in on it but I can't explain right now and RYU and SUSATO were like ok. And when you go see Kazuma he's also like I can't explain right now. Whaaaaaat? I'm starving for answers, I'm not buying this, I need answers!

So when I got answers I mellowed out a lot on my displeasure. It's imperfect but it works for me.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,943
I am playing this again from the beginning! I convinced a friend to buy it so we're playing it :D

I'm excited to replay haha. Back to deer in the headlights Ryunosuke for a bit…

Edit: so, it's wild going back to the start and

seeing just how much Kazuma, Jigoku, and Stronghart talk around the major underlying plot without it really raising your awareness the first time around (or maybe I just didn't notice it much). Everything Kazuma says in 1-1, 1-2 is basically hinting at the larger plot, and the idea that he brought Ryunosuke along to basically be Kazuma's lawyer in case Kazuma got caught. Jigoku is making pretty constant hints at Kazuma doing his duty ~as a visiting student. Stronghart is sussing out whether Ryunosuke knows about the plot at all ("so you plan to do everything Mr Asogi set out to do, so you? Is that so?" and "you claim you intend to see through the will of your compatriot, Mr Asogi. I would like to understand just how far you're willing to go to make that happen."

Wild!
 
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Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Halfway through Case 5. I really dug the twist of

the cross exchange assasins. It really does recontextualize a lot of the actions of Jezaille and Kazuma during those first two cases. That said, it does open some bigger holes in the process. You telling me Jezaille was a professionally trained assasin and her big plan was killing someone in a public restaurant. Alright.
 
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dojo32161

Member
Sep 4, 2019
1,914
Halfway through Case 5. I really dug the twist of

the cross exchange assasins. It really does recontextualize a lot of the actions of Jezaille and Kazuma during those first two cases. That said, it does open some bigger holes in the process. You telling me Jezaille was a professionally trained assasin and her big plan was killing someone in a public restaurant. Alright.
Exchange.png
To be fair to Jezaille, her plan did also involve a poison completely undetectable by the Japanese government and using their investigation methods against them. It didn't go smoothly due to Ryu walking up to talk to them, ruining her window of opportunity to leave before the curare took effect, so she had to improvise framing Ryu fast.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Exchange.png
To be fair to Jezaille, her plan did also involve a poison completely undetectable by the Japanese government and using their investigation methods against them. It didn't go smoothly due to Ryu walking up to talk to them, ruining her window of opportunity to leave before the curare took effect, so she had to improvise framing Ryu fast.

I think we had this exact same convo when I went through the first case last year lmao

It really does bother me a lot because I can't think of any other murder plot in the series so inherently flawed while being that simple and straightforward in execution. But I know I need to let it go already...
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,943
Okay, so continuing along with my replay and more interesting notes about foreshadowing…

Stronghart mentions after McGilded's trial comes to an end that it was a case we "couldn't lose" and then when Ryunosuke asks why, Stronghart plays it off as "well you're just exceptional", but Ryunosuke wonders what Stronghart was "going to say before".

I'm wondering if Stronghart had helped rig it in someway that would have been beneficial for the assassin exchange, if Ryunosuke knew about it.

Every time Ryunosuke questions something Stronghart says as weird, my hackles go up lol.

Edit: lol, and then he immediately asks "you mentioned you intend to carry out Mr Asogi's will—what exactly do you mean by that?" and when Ryunosuke says Kazuma never got to tell him what the "something important" was, Stronghart immediately ends the conversation and says "well, go do whatever it is I told you to do, bye".
 
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Magnet_Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Okay, so continuing along with my replay and more interesting notes about foreshadowing…

Stronghart mentions after McGilded's trial comes to an end that it was a case we "couldn't lose" and then when Ryunosuke asks why, Stronghart plays it off as "well you're just exceptional", but Ryunosuke wonders what Stronghart was "going to say before".

I'm wondering if Stronghart had helped rig it in someway that would have been beneficial for the assassin exchange, if Ryunosuke knew about it.

Every time Ryunosuke questions something Stronghart says as weird, my hackles go up lol.

Edit: lol, and then he immediately asks "you mentioned you intend to carry out Mr Asogi's will—what exactly do you mean by that?" and when Ryunosuke says Kazuma never got to tell him what the "something important" was, Stronghart immediately ends the conversation and says "well, go do whatever it is I told you to do, bye".
Those first conversations with Stronghart are so fascinating to me on repeat plays knowing everything going on
1) When you first talk to him he's like "You want to be an attorney? With no qualifications, experience, training, or schoolwork? Yeah....no."
"But I gotta carry out Asogi's will!"
"I PROPOSE A TEST FOR THIS PROMISING YOUTH FROM THE RISING SUN!!"

It's not so much that he rigged or played a part in McGilded's trial, but he knew that Mcgilded was going to put his thumb on the scales and that Van Zieks was going to be the prosecutor. So even though this was a softball pitch of a trial, on paper it sounds pretty impressive; "Novice attorney from Japan on his 1st day on British soil defeats the Reaper of the Bailey and saves beloved celebrity Magnus McGilded!!" Like, how could you *not* make this AMAZING student into an honorary defense attorney? (ku ku ku)

At the very least, this gives Stronghart time to research and make sure if Ryunosuke is, to put it discretely, a "legit" substitute for Asogi

2) At the same time, this gives Stronghart blackmail to use against Ryunosuke should he not be pliable. "You played a part in helping manipulate a court hearing to win your murderer client an acquittal. That is a serious charge, my Nipponese friend, but I can help pull some strings. Provided you...." Fortunately Ryunosuke isn't afraid of the truth even if it puts himself in harm's way so when he blurts out the truth of McGilded's actions himself during Gina's trial, it robbed Stronghart of any hold he could've had. With nothing to hold over Ryunosuke and at that point it's been two months with no progress on the "carrying out Asogi's will" part, Stronghart begins blocking Ryunosuke from standing in court again. And isn't it odd that he doesn't rescind that order until a specific person Stronghart was expecting had already arrived in London...

3) The start of GAA1-4 is where I get shivers on retrospect. One of the big deals about the case is that it is considered the most open-and-shut case imaginable. A public street with no place to hide, only Natsume and the victim were there confirmed by the suspect himself and a patrolman who witnessed the crime, and the suspect fled the scene. For such an obvious and basic crime like this, isn't it strange that Inspector Gregson, the most famous and successful Scotland Yard officer is called in by Stronghart personally to his office, alone, to meet with someone who claims to have come to England to carry out Asogi's will?

"Ah, here he is now, my good friend, Tobias Gregson. "T.Gregson" as it were if we were to shorten it, ha ha. Please, T.GREGSON, have a chat with this no-name attorney and tell him everything you, T.GREGSON, know about the incident while I step outside for a meeting of mine and leave you, T.GREGSON, alone in this sound-proof room with no witnesses. Ask him about that sword he's holding to break the ice"

I know I'm reading too much into it and it's extremely doubtful Stronghart was specifically expecting Ryunosuke to do the deed right there, but given the context of the full story the scene looks exactly like Stronghart put a mouse in a box with a snake and seeing if it will bite.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,943
Those first conversations with Stronghart are so fascinating to me on repeat plays knowing everything going on
1) When you first talk to him he's like "You want to be an attorney? With no qualifications, experience, training, or schoolwork? Yeah....no."
"But I gotta carry out Asogi's will!"
"I PROPOSE A TEST FOR THIS PROMISING YOUTH FROM THE RISING SUN!!"

It's not so much that he rigged or played a part in McGilded's trial, but he knew that Mcgilded was going to put his thumb on the scales and that Van Zieks was going to be the prosecutor. So even though this was a softball pitch of a trial, on paper it sounds pretty impressive; "Novice attorney from Japan on his 1st day on British soil defeats the Reaper of the Bailey and saves beloved celebrity Magnus McGilded!!" Like, how could you *not* make this AMAZING student into an honorary defense attorney? (ku ku ku)

At the very least, this gives Stronghart time to research and make sure if Ryunosuke is, to put it discretely, a "legit" substitute for Asogi

2) At the same time, this gives Stronghart blackmail to use against Ryunosuke should he not be pliable. "You played a part in helping manipulate a court hearing to win your murderer client an acquittal. That is a serious charge, my Nipponese friend, but I can help pull some strings. Provided you...." Fortunately Ryunosuke isn't afraid of the truth even if it puts himself in harm's way so when he blurts out the truth of McGilded's actions himself during Gina's trial, it robbed Stronghart of any hold he could've had. With nothing to hold over Ryunosuke and at that point it's been two months with no progress on the "carrying out Asogi's will" part, Stronghart begins blocking Ryunosuke from standing in court again. And isn't it odd that he doesn't rescind that order until a specific person Stronghart was expecting had already arrived in London...

3) The start of GAA1-4 is where I get shivers on retrospect. One of the big deals about the case is that it is considered the most open-and-shut case imaginable. A public street with no place to hide, only Natsume and the victim were there confirmed by the suspect himself and a patrolman who witnessed the crime, and the suspect fled the scene. For such an obvious and basic crime like this, isn't it strange that Inspector Gregson, the most famous and successful Scotland Yard officer is called in by Stronghart personally to his office, alone, to meet with someone who claims to have come to England to carry out Asogi's will?

"Ah, here he is now, my good friend, Tobias Gregson. "T.Gregson" as it were if we were to shorten it, ha ha. Please, T.GREGSON, have a chat with this no-name attorney and tell him everything you, T.GREGSON, know about the incident while I step outside for a meeting of mine and leave you, T.GREGSON, alone in this sound-proof room with no witnesses. Ask him about that sword he's holding to break the ice"

I know I'm reading too much into it and it's extremely doubtful Stronghart was specifically expecting Ryunosuke to do the deed right there, but given the context of the full story the scene looks exactly like Stronghart put a mouse in a box with a snake and seeing if it will bite.

Oh fuuuuuuuuck I didn't even think of that last point. OH MAN. That makes total sense that Stronghart pulled Gregson over there. Oh my goooood. And then Stronghart's so dismissive when Ryunosuke is like "I never learned what the special thing was".

AAAAH. Yeah, it's wild replaying it because every character in on the major plot is talking around it without really raising a first time player's suspicion. Like, Kazuma comes off as he just has a nice ~dream of learning law and bettering Japan, when he's half helping a friend, half sizing Ryunosuke up and then bringing Ryu with him to basically be Kazuma's lawyer if/when Kazuma gets caught. Jigoku is making major hints at it, but it just comes across as the Supreme Court judge into, again, a furthering of the law.

But yeah, Stronghart's conversations are wild. He's explicitly just sizing up Ryunosuke to find out what he knows, if anything.

And yeah, it seemed a little far fetched that he could have rigged anything with McGilded's trial, but like I said, I'm kind of scrutinizing every line Stronghart says right now, because as you said, it's fascinating.
 

Magnet_Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Oh fuuuuuuuuck I didn't even think of that last point. OH MAN. That makes total sense that Stronghart pulled Gregson over there. Oh my goooood. And then Stronghart's so dismissive when Ryunosuke is like "I never learned what the special thing was".

AAAAH. Yeah, it's wild replaying it because every character in on the major plot is talking around it without really raising a first time player's suspicion. Like, Kazuma comes off as he just has a nice ~dream of learning law and bettering Japan, when he's half helping a friend, half sizing Ryunosuke up and then bringing Ryu with him to basically be Kazuma's lawyer if/when Kazuma gets caught. Jigoku is making major hints at it, but it just comes across as the Supreme Court judge into, again, a furthering of the law.

But yeah, Stronghart's conversations are wild. He's explicitly just sizing up Ryunosuke to find out what he knows, if anything.

And yeah, it seemed a little far fetched that he could have rigged anything with McGilded's trial, but like I said, I'm kind of scrutinizing every line Stronghart says right now, because as you said, it's fascinating.
Yzma is Stronghart
Kuzko is Gregson
Kronk is Ryunosuke

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m_eUAurXNg4&t=23s
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Finished the trial for Case 5 and I personally absolutely hated it. My friend actually really liked it, though! We argued about it for an hour lol. That said, the new pursuit theme went fucking hard.

Will write my longer thoughts when we finally finish the game tomorrow (?)
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Finally done with GAA2! Wrote a review explaining my messy opinions about both Resolve and the duology as a whole.

Resolve is a pretty significant upgrade to its predecessor. With vastly faster pacing, better character moments, and more interesting murder mysteries, it's an improvement all across the board from the miserable first game. I wish I could sing it endless praises, but it still stumbles enough to be just another good but flawed entry in the series. In an (admirable) effort to be more fun than GAA1 and skip to the good parts, Resolve suffers from wasted potential from several of its more interesting characters and ideas, rushed developments, annoying telegraphed twists that you could see coming hours ago, and some bizarre character directions which in some ways feel like they are directly betraying the tone and character development the first game set up for so long.

There is a fight between the serious and the goofy in this duology which is painful to watch. For every character that suffers through a long life of misery and betrayal to get out of poverty we get one that turns from a thief with no future to a promising police detective overnight. For every well realized twist and grounded explanation making use of its Victorian setting we get fucking holograms in court. The goofy tone and characters of the series is at complete odds with any of the serious content GAA attempts to tackle. And attempt is a good choice of words, because most concepts and themes here are explored in a surface level that crumble as soon as you give them some thought, or at least, just go absolutely nowhere. Racism, imperialism, classicism, sexism… they are all ideas GAA touches, but never meaningfully explores in a way that makes them more than tiny footnotes to the individual cases, if it doesn't fumble them completely (looking at you, Van Zikes). I would argue the only concept GAA manages to successfully integrate into the overall story is corruption, something we have seen over and over in this series.

The pretenses of Ace Attorney being a game series instead of a novel are completely gone in Resolve: no new gameplay elements, the same contradictions we have seen time and time again, sudden removal of key mechanics… Little would be lost if this duology was a kinetic VN, and ideally a shorter and more concise one. More disappointing is the reuse of so many assets, most notably the soundtrack, which is even more tonally dissonant this time around. This series always had a strong musical identity in each entry, and it was a massive pity seeing that aspect thrown out the window here. Especially because the soundtrack of Adventures was one of my least favorites. Kitagawa knows how to nail the most bombastic moments in and outside the courtroom, but the music between those moments left me cold. The heavy string usage and serious melodies don't mesh with the shenanigans of Ace Attorney.

My biggest issue with GAA as a whole is that it tries to reframe this wacky series about wacky murders with wacky characters into this serious and mature legal drama that is hardly as satisfying as the dumb or personal fun cases the series excelled at for the longest time. The long-winded boring setup only hurts the narrative when the payoff is as weak and contrived as it currently is. The story of Resolve ends up focusing on bringing down an important political figure from his seat of power, but the only reason Ryuunosuke is given that chance in the first place is by that same political figure gifting him the opportunity in a silver platter. Kazuma's "revival", and especially his admission as a prosecutor by Stronghart borders on the absurdity by the final case. The sheer premise of this story is questionable, why was Stronghart so selective on the people he needed to silence when so many other individuals were in the know about the conspiracy and actively posed a threat to it? Did he realize by hiring assassins he was involving even more people into it? And one of these assassins had extremely personal ties to the conspiracy he was trying to hide in the first place? Come on. I just don't think even the basic concepts that tie this duology together click well. Games in this series that took themselves far less seriously could push these narratives as cockiness or exaggerated personality traits to great effect, but here it just came across as downright nonsense. These types of writing contrivances pile up by the end of the experience, and make a potentially fascinating story into a confused mess. It is a fun mess, though. At least in Resolve.

The ending was absolutely terrible. I can't believe I am suggesting a Persona tier sequence for Ace Attorney, but I think it would have been a much better conclusion If Stronghart's downfall relied on the will of the people rather than on an arbitrarily higher political power settling the score. Let me change the ending a little bit. Without the use of holograms, Sholmes could have easily co-organized many of the people we had helped on this adventure to publicly testify against Stronghart's crimes. Soseki as a currently renowed author, writing about his negative experiences with the British legal system, Gina and part of the Scotland Yard force talking about the corruption in the police as retaliation for the loss of their most loved member and their treatment as expendable pawns, Scythe and Jigoku confessing their full involvement in the government conspiracy inspired by their close ones (Gorey and Mikotoba) rebelling against the corrupt system... All leading to the inevitable conclusion that Stronghart's reign of absolute legal power and control was over before it even started. You could even have Ryonosuke convince the people of the judiciary with a Summation Examination. I thought they were going to do something important and grand with this gimmick when the jury was first introduced, but then they completely dropped the mechanic altogether, making me question why it even was there! I think that type of ending would tie the themes and cases of the games a lot better, and deservedly prop up Ryuunosuke's involvement in Stronghart's downfall. As it currently stands, the spotlight is completely stolen by Sholmes at the last second, while he deus ex machina the hardest I have ever seen in these games. What a waste of one of the best Pursuit themes in the entire series.

Anyway, Resolve is another fun legal adventure attached to a 30-hour game of boring setup for a payoff other AA games managed to do on their own. I can't stretch enough how much better Resolve is compared to Adventures, but everything I hated about the first one returns in some way or another, dragging the whole experience down. I wasn't emotionally invested with the story or the the main characters, the railroaded gameplay constantly disappointed me, the payoff was really messy, and above all, the direction it took with the series is one I do not enjoy. I just wish that I had a better opinion of this experience as a whole, because it had the potential to be something amazing, and it never quite got there for me.

I personally would give Resolve a solid 7. And the duology as a whole a 5. The horrible first game drags down GAA so hard for me. Sad that I am completely done playing all Ace Attorney games, though… Guess it's time to delve into the fangame scene for my AA fix.

And for good measure, here are our rankings for both characters and cases for this duology. Was a blast playing this with my friend, even when we really disliked half of it lol. Took as more than a year, we have almost 140 hours in-game!

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wamoss

Member
Aug 11, 2022
1,190
Man the first game has super excellent so far. Surprisingly elaborate and twisty first trial, and already starting really quick with the 2nd chapter.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,943
Man the first game has super excellent so far. Surprisingly elaborate and twisty first trial, and already starting really quick with the 2nd chapter.

Have fuuuun!

My friend and I are getting close to the very end!

Shes a little behind me right now because she's had a busy week, so she's still got from day 2 trial of 2-4 and on to go. I'm waiting for her, but I've told her to play up to "testify! Testify! Testify!" and then her and I are going to play the finale of the Reaper trial together haha.

I'm a dork who likes to VA text only games when I love them a lot, and she thinks it's hilarious, so I'm gonna voice act the hell out of the finale 😂 On that note, I'm sure people near me in my apartment complex think I'm INSANE because for hours on end, I'll just be talking to myself in various voices and accents lmao.

I'm also really happy I introduced her to this—she's totally in love with it, and will likely play AA1-3 with me at some point too.

Replaying, I think it's cemented GAA as my favourite AA package. I love AA1-3 a lot, a lot, a lot (like, partially based my career off of it), but man. Maybe it's the setting, but I can't get over GAA. I love the characters so much, love the music, love the story, all of it. I'm down bad for this game lol.