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The hate against Vaan (FF12) is unfair and frankly weird
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
I cannot believe there are still people who feel threatened by Vaan being shirtless or doing a pinup pose. This is why the Mobius Final Fantasy debacle happened.
Yeah but he's Manly so it's Acceptable."His design is ridiculous!!"
"Basch should have been the main character!!!"
Final Fantasy was my favorite franchise until I finished X. I was so turned off by Tidus and I took one look at Vaan and decided I was done with FF. Not fair but I HATED Tidus and here was another goofy looking character with a silly outfit. That being said I just played through XII on Switch and have some pretty conflicted feelings on it. Didn't care for Vaan. Loved Balthier, Ashe, Basch, and Fran. I don't regret playing but I feel like it's just a bit above X for me because of some of the games annoyances. I have never played a game in my life that insisted on inflicting status effects as much as this did. It was almost constant and boy did I hate that.
Sexy Rubik Cube Man"His design is ridiculous!!"
"Basch should have been the main character!!!"
I love Akihiko Yoshida but tbh most of the character designs in XII are pretty silly. I know it's hot but why are the dalmascan soldiers wearing shorts lmao"His design is ridiculous!!"
"Basch should have been the main character!!!"
Not that the rest of the main cast in Final Fantasy XII is hardly any more sensible than Vaan, but people who live in deserts wear clothing like this:
Vests are a bad choice because they don't protect against sunburns during the day, and they're too cold at night.
I mean, it's not an unfair criticism, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who are sincere about this. But I think a lot of people, consciously or not, aren't truly motivated by that argument.
There's an entire universe of characters in FF who wear clothing that's extremely inappropriate for the given environment, and none of them get this same level of hate.
I'm reminded of the announcement of FF Mobius.
Back at the old place, before the split, there was an extremely visceral and negative reaction to the design of the main character, a guy dressed in the the same super impractical, ultra revealing nonsense as half of all female FF characters.
As a bi man, I was really happy to see a dude get the same stupid, sexy, objectifying treatment women get in these games. I fuck with this. But the reaction was so strong, Square relented and covered up his chest, since it was just so upsetting to male fans.
The only difference between these characters and their lady counterparts is that they're men displaying their sexuality—sexuality of, dare i say it, a slightly submissive nature.
Here, male presenting nipples are not to be tolerated.
EDIT: Unless, of course, they're MANLY nipples. Nipples for MANLY men no homo.
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I found him a boring character but I'd like to see more strident efforts to push for more variety in the designs and affect of male characters, particularly on the more vulnerable/less masculine and more sexualized part of the spectrum.
I say this as someone who typically prefers to play as characters with an asexual tough guy aesthetic. I want the limiting box to be broken.
I say this as someone who typically prefers to play as characters with an asexual tough guy aesthetic. I want the limiting box to be broken.
I am someone who hates Final Fantasy XII, but I like Vaan both as a character and as the game's protagonist. He is a good guy who is well-suited as a protagonist for the game that Final Fantasy XII actually is. FF XII isn't a game about politics; it is a game about about wandering around a giant wilderness while hunting marks and diving into ruins in search of ancient plot mcguffins. For that kind of game, Vaan just works as the lead character. He is exactly the sort of guy who fits into Clan Centuro, and various story events such as the chop collecting in Arcaedia fit him perfectly. Everything in the game outside of the actual cutscenes is built around Vaan as the protagonist perfectly.
People say that Basch is the real main protagonist, but that isn't actually true. Once the full party is put together and the adventure through unending wilderness begins, Basch spends most of the game stuffed into the background of cutscenes with Vaan and Panelo. Basch gets along with those two great for most of the game, while Balthier and Ashe spend several cutscenes across a long stretch of time brooding over their pasts and whether or not they should grow up and be decent people.
People say that Basch is the real main protagonist, but that isn't actually true. Once the full party is put together and the adventure through unending wilderness begins, Basch spends most of the game stuffed into the background of cutscenes with Vaan and Panelo. Basch gets along with those two great for most of the game, while Balthier and Ashe spend several cutscenes across a long stretch of time brooding over their pasts and whether or not they should grow up and be decent people.
I on the whole don't trust the opinions of FF fans at this point.
Now that I think about it he may be my favorite FF main protag which is wild to say. I guess second place to Cloud.
Now that I think about it he may be my favorite FF main protag which is wild to say. I guess second place to Cloud.
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Vaan and Penelo were shoe-horned into a story they have no place being in. There's even a point in the story where Balthier points this out to him and I can't help but believe that's a bit of an internal message from the developers.
I don't dislike Vaan because of his personality or design, I just dislike that his existence is practically meaningless within the context of the story. He was put in the game just to make it appeal to a younger and broader audience. You could remove him from the game entirely and nothing of value would be lost.
I don't dislike Vaan because of his personality or design, I just dislike that his existence is practically meaningless within the context of the story. He was put in the game just to make it appeal to a younger and broader audience. You could remove him from the game entirely and nothing of value would be lost.
I can't hate someone that barely exists in the game. It's like if Avatar starred the cabbage guy.
Should mention I only ever got... I dunno, 1/3 to 1/2 through FF12 before dropping it. But up to that point he has no relevance to or investment in anything, except that he's present when things are actually going down. It really felt like Balthier, Basch, or Ashe, should have been the protagonist. (The multitude of better-suited characters is what makes Vaan stick out so, so much.)
Should mention I only ever got... I dunno, 1/3 to 1/2 through FF12 before dropping it. But up to that point he has no relevance to or investment in anything, except that he's present when things are actually going down. It really felt like Balthier, Basch, or Ashe, should have been the protagonist. (The multitude of better-suited characters is what makes Vaan stick out so, so much.)
I'd say the biggest problem with Vaan is that he's very similar to two other FF protagonists Zidane and Tidus.
Characters whose story does not drive the plot. However he differentiates from both in implementation.
Tidus like Vaan, isn't the actual big story of his game, but rather a part of a whole. The difference however is that Tidus' part is so much more significant than Vaan's, so he is always at the forefront and it always makes sense.
Zidane on the other hand is by and large not impacted by the most of his game's story. Like Vaan he's mostly a 3rd party to the real happenings of his game. However unlike Vaan, Zidane is an active participant and influencer of the other's stories.
Characters whose story does not drive the plot. However he differentiates from both in implementation.
Tidus like Vaan, isn't the actual big story of his game, but rather a part of a whole. The difference however is that Tidus' part is so much more significant than Vaan's, so he is always at the forefront and it always makes sense.
Zidane on the other hand is by and large not impacted by the most of his game's story. Like Vaan he's mostly a 3rd party to the real happenings of his game. However unlike Vaan, Zidane is an active participant and influencer of the other's stories.
Well I mean, his design looked kinda ...effeminate especially back when the game was released so I'm not surprised that he's not looked at fondly.
He is very bland stylistically and character wise, and had a very bad character model (they fixed it in the remaster).
I don't like him or Tidus.
Cecil and Terra are my favourite characters in the series.
I don't like him or Tidus.
Cecil and Terra are my favourite characters in the series.
Vaan is totally fine. Certainly no worse than the average "young boy" JRPG protagonist. He's just not as interesting as most of the party surrounding him.
I liked Vaan. He was gay in my headcanon.
He won me over with the whole "I'm Captain Basch Von Ronsenburg! Basch lives!" thing.
He won me over with the whole "I'm Captain Basch Von Ronsenburg! Basch lives!" thing.
It's hard not to when the OP took the time to write an in-depth post with well detailed explanation and even video proof, and you respond with zero facts or even arguments.
I have nothing against Vaan,i just think that Ashe,Balthier and Basch are the real protags while he and Penelo are just like witnesses,the point of view of someone who plays a supporting role for those with a more important fate.
Also the final dramatic scene belongs to Balthier when bahamut is about to explode and he decides to stay,kinda what a main character would do imo.
The game is kinda gray in some aspects,people still argue if Vayne and Venat were really the main antagonists or evil at all.
But yeah,Vaan gets too much hate.
Also the final dramatic scene belongs to Balthier when bahamut is about to explode and he decides to stay,kinda what a main character would do imo.
The game is kinda gray in some aspects,people still argue if Vayne and Venat were really the main antagonists or evil at all.
But yeah,Vaan gets too much hate.
They are commonly known facts that have been presented to death for over a decade now but here you go:
Regardless of whether I had evidence or not, to say I presented zero arguments is false. I presented an opinion based on a fact.
I played it when it first came out and didn't like him or the game then. I played it again when it came to PS4 and felt the same way. He's completely forgettable and inconsequential. I don't know why we play as him at all. The story has barely anything to do with him.
They should have explored the lives of the poor a lot more to be honest. It's never really a point of conversation... they have two characters who are defined by being poor orphans scraping by and they never really make any use of it.
Isn't this the exact same thing from the OP?
"In early stages of development the main character was to be "big and tough", but as development continued and targeting demographics were considered, he became more youthful. With the casting of voice actor Kohei Takeda, who also did motion capture for the part, he became less so and more "active, upbeat, bright and positive", all traits that characterize Vaan. The change in lead character happened early on in development. In terms of the story, there were slight changes as to which character would appear at which stage, but nothing that would change the plot drastically"
When I originally played the game, I felt he seemed a bit shoehorned into the story. But then when I played the HD remaster I realised he is actually quite important at the beginning of the game because his story helps the player actually invest in the world and relate to what is going on. If you play the beginning of Final Fantasy XII imaging if Vaan were erased from it, it becomes clear that there's actually little for the player to latch on to without his narrative as the story is pretty unrelatable until he shows up. I think the big problem with him is that he's presented as a primary protagonist but ultimately becomes a bit redundant later on in the game.
Nothing changed drastically because they never removed the plot of the character who was meant to be the main one: Basch. They just added a youthful character to appeal to a broader demographic without giving much thought to his purpose and role in the story.
Like I said before, I don't dislike Vaan, I think he's a decent enough character by most remarks. I just don't think he has any relevancy at all to the plot. I don't find that unfair to say, and I don't think drawing comparisons with other plot-irrelevant characters makes Vaan better. All Final Fantasy games, or most of them, have characters that hardly have any relevance to the story but those don't tend to be the main protagonist.
I might've liked Van if he wore a shirt. That's all it comes down to. You can vouch to just not have him in the party so it wasn't ever to big a issue to me. I just didnt wanna play as any shirtless teens, even in my teens.
Edit: I spent my whole life as someone who felt shame showing my nipples even though I'm male so don't make me feel shame for someone's nips I cant cover.
Edit: I spent my whole life as someone who felt shame showing my nipples even though I'm male so don't make me feel shame for someone's nips I cant cover.
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I think the hate comes from 1. His design(the biggest factor) and 2. They were better choices for Protag, particularly Ashe.
Like he's not a terrible character maybe a bit forgettable, but him being the protagonist always felt weird when Ashe was right there.
As an aside the overbearing Tidus hate gets on my nerves. Fantastic character who y'all don't deserve. His design is a bit garbo but he's great.
Like he's not a terrible character maybe a bit forgettable, but him being the protagonist always felt weird when Ashe was right there.
As an aside the overbearing Tidus hate gets on my nerves. Fantastic character who y'all don't deserve. His design is a bit garbo but he's great.
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But Ashe is the protagonist. That's like saying Locke from FFVI is the protagonist but not Terra. Just like Yuna is the protagonist in X
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What you have quoted has quite literally nothing to do with actual evidence of them being "shoe-horned"
I think Protag was the wrong word I used. Maybe I should have said lead? Or face of the game? Idk, I guess people wanted him to be involved in the story in a much bigger or obvious way, given that he's like the main viewpoint character for the player. I still think most of the hate is from his design though.
Vaan is boring compared to most of the other party members. And the rendering on his open chest was creepy. When you're watching a TV show and this gross character's design makes you think of Vaan, you know you fucked up rendering a character
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Zidane takes the spotlight to the point where most of the events has to be motivated with him at the center. Some characters are also pushed to complete irrelevancy because they can't stand on their own if they don't have anything to do with Zidane himself. Freya, Amarant, Quina most especially.
In comparison the cast of FFXII gets mostly equal exposure and subsists on their own. They all have their own lives with their own motivations.
But most events aren't motivated with him at the center. Other than Amarant, who is the least developed character by far in his own story, All of the other cast's story do not in any way necessitate or need Zidane. But he becomes a key player because that's the modus operandi of his character. He's a guy who selflessly helps people at no real benefit to himself.
It has been reported numerous times by many different sources and though most of it is just informed speculation. We can keep going around the merry-go-round of saying I only have rumors and hearsay but regardless of whether or not you believe he was shoe-horned in the fact remains that as a character he has no relevancy in the story.
I do think that ignoring the fact the game's lead designer left the project shortly before Vaan was added and Vaan's relevance to the plot are pretty telltale signs of the corporate mandate. But that's just my interpretation of how things went down. Yours is welcome to differ, I just don't happen to agree with it.
Ashe is the protagonist in theory, her choice to use the magicite is the center of the story. But it's blurred, because only Vaan is controllable in towns, he gets the last hit on Vayne's human form, and the ending leads with Vaan as the protagonist finally becoming a sky pirate in Revenant Wings.
Personally I wouldn't compare the protagonist dynamic to FF VI. Maybe a better comparison would be Link and Midna in Zelda Twilight Princess?
Tidus is protagonist of FFX and Yuna is the deutergonist, Tidus has just about enough character developement with his father, Auron and of couse Yuna.