Status
Not open for further replies.

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
I watched the movie again last night, and it constantly fluctuates in quality for me. I love all the bits with Luke, Rey and Kylo. It's truly top-notch stuff, which contain some of the best scenes in all of Star Wars.

Having said that, it's the stuff in between those scenes that are really jarring, because TLJ handles Finn very poorly. Not only is his subplot boring, but it's useless to the overall story while making things worse for the good guys. Finn, Rose, and Poe should be in jail for being inadvertently responsible for nearly the destruction of the entire Resistance. To be fair, I liked Finn's arc in the film, which was going from someone who only cared about Rey, to fighting for the whole Resistance. I just wish he was given a subplot that was interesting and relevant to the overall story.

I can't tell you how much I loath the "saving what we love" scene. It's absolutely nonsensical, easily the worst scene in the film. It completely kills the moment and it's way too corny, even for Star Wars. The worst aspect is it actually contradicts what's shown in the film, as Holdo had previously done a similar sacrificial run and it worked to spectacular results, and Luke sacrifices himself at the end to save the Rebellion.

Speaking of Luke's death, I found it to be very powerful, and with the rest of the Resistance boarding the Falcon, it was the perfect way to end the film. But then it keeps going, and we go back to broomstick boy on Canto Bight. I always feel bad about criticizing child actors, and it's hard finding really good child actors. But I felt the kid was mugging for the camera in all of his scenes, which is unfortunately a trap a lot of child actors fall into. The film ending with him was so bizarre, and completely detached with what was going on.

That's my biggest issue with TLJ, for every 20 great scenes it has, there's always one scene around the corner where I'm just like "Huh"? Ultimately, I do like TLJ, but it's frustrating because with a few rewrites it could have been a truly great movie.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Isn't the point that no matter what the good guys did, they were absolutely fucked? That's why Finn felt meaningless. The desperation felt real. Definitely the best Star Wars film since Empire.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,400
Laughed out loud at the "saving what we love" scene as the rebel cave was obliterated in the background. What the fuck were they thinking? Finn loved the rebellion and all the people in that cave. He just tried to save them. Why did you stop him?!
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
The Force Awakens does a massive disservice to Finn.

"I can't kill these civilians because killing is wrong!"

10 minutes later, after slaughtering many stormtroopers who he probably knew personally and understood were being forced into service

"Whoo! Are we really doing this!? WoooHOO!"
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,604
Nonono, it's good that the former slave soldier gets a lesson on why slavery is bad!
The message isn't that slavery is bad though. It's that the excesses of Canto Bight are built on slavery. Slavery is the thing that Finn already thinks is bad that helps him develop resolve.

Finn is a great character on the basis of the boundless charisma of the actor. His actual writing was thrown off from the start in TFA, questionable decisions all around given his past and where he was going. There was a lot of unexplored potential there. As clumsy as the Canto Bight sequence is, I think TLJ deserves some credit for at least trying to readdress and flesh out some of those gaps in his character.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I liked his arc and moments with Rose, but I agree that stuff was too disconnected from the main plotline.

But that's what happens when you separate the big three for almost all of the film.
 
Dec 12, 2017
9,686
Finn was done a disservice from the start.

Yep. Amazing setup as a former Stormtrooper. Could have gone anywhere with that angle. PTSD...takes a vow to be non violent, even though he is part of the resistance...a liasion to liberating other First Order to join the ranks of the Resistance...anything.

Instead, they made him into a lovesick space janitor saying things like "Droid, please" played for laughs.

John Boyega deserved better.
 

Elderly Parrot

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Aug 13, 2018
3,146
Yes. He had to get his plot from the colored fountain along with the Asian girl, Spanish guy, and the mixed robot
 
Last edited:

Flame Flamey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
4,638
I'm not a fan of Finn's treatment by the two movies. I'll just say I find the janitor jokes to be nonsensical and in pretty bad taste, and I'm really hoping they don't go 3 for 3. Guy was a child soldier for a terrible regime, robbed of everything, including his identity; can they not turn that into a joke?
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Isn't the point that no matter what the good guys did, they were absolutely fucked? That's why Finn felt meaningless. The desperation felt real. Definitely the best Star Wars film since Empire.
This is part of what I don't get about the hate and the narrative that J.J. has to "fix" or "course correct", because it pretty much followed up the Empire beats the way TFA did New Hope, big difference is that in Empire luke raced from where he should be to save his friends and failed whereas in TLJ he finally realizes going is what he should do so reluctantly force projects and kills himself, but saves the last flame of the rebellion. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
They cut out a scene where he tries to talk other stormtroopers out, which I think does a lot for his character

Also this scene which fixes HIM AND PHASMA IN LIKE A MINUTE WAS CUT, WHY
 
OP
OP
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Other negatives I forgot to add.

- The Leia in space scene didn't work for me. I like the idea of it, with Leia finally using the force, but the execution just felt off (I legit chuckled when I first saw it).
-Spaceballs humor, like Poe's yo momma joke, or the scene transition with the vaccum.
-The Faither race with Finn and Rose on Canto Bight, the CG and general vibe reminded me of the factor scene from Attack of the clones.

That's what frustrates me about TLJ. So many great scenes, but there's always one poorly executed scene in between that kills the mood a bit.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,080
Laughed out loud at the "saving what we love" scene as the rebel cave was obliterated in the background. What the fuck were they thinking? Finn loved the rebellion and all the people in that cave. He just tried to save them. Why did you stop him?!

I'm more bothered with how Finn and Rose magically teleported to safety afterwards when they were in the middle of a giant open Battlefield next to the entire First Order army and Rose is unconscious.
 

Eggiem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,823
Other negatives I forgot to add.

- The Leia in space scene didn't work for me. I like the idea of it, with Leia finally using the force, but the execution just felt off (I legit chuckled when I first saw it).
-Spaceballs humor, like Poe's yo momma joke, or the scene transition with the vaccum.
-The Faither race with Finn and Rose on Canto Bight, the CG and general vibe reminded me of the factor scene from Attack of the clones.

That's what frustrates me about TLJ. So many great scenes, but there's always one poorly executed scene in between that kills the mood a bit.
Wait wait wait. If you want to talk about the other negatives, this will be an endless thread. Be careful with that. :P
 

Gambit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,178
Absolutely. After TFA I was very curious how his story would continue. He had charm, chemistry with Rey and Poe, and courage. Even if he didn't turn out to be the Jedi I could see him be a breakout character, eventually as beloved as Luke, Han and Leia.

Now? If he didn't show up again in 9 I'd not even think about it. Same goes for Poe, btw. After The Last Jedi I am basically only curious about Kylo and Rey anymore. Everyone else is either dead or utterly uninteresting.

I do wonder actually how Last Jedi affected merchandise sales for Finn. Maybe it didn't at all.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,603
Yep. Amazing setup as a former Stormtrooper. Could have gone anywhere with that angle. PTSD...takes a vow to be non violent, even though he is part of the resistance...a liasion to liberating other First Order to join the ranks of the Resistance...anything.

Instead, they made him into a lovesick space janitor saying things like "Droid, please" played for laughs.

John Boyega deserved better.

Yeeep. It further strains credulity that someone with his background just goes on to kill other stormtroopers without a care.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,538
Earth, 21st Century
I think the point was the Holdo did sacrifice herself, Rose stops Finn from doing it, and they stay fucked either way until Luke shows up.

The resistance was super screwed. Even if they'd gotten the right codebreaker, then what? The point is that they all tried their absolute best and still failed.

It also shows how much the galaxy needs people like the Jedi still.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Isn't the point that no matter what the good guys did, they were absolutely fucked? That's why Finn felt meaningless. The desperation felt real. Definitely the best Star Wars film since Empire.
Agree.

They cut out a scene where he tries to talk other stormtroopers out, which I think does a lot for his character

Also this scene which fixes HIM AND PHASMA IN LIKE A MINUTE WAS CUT, WHY

That was dope.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,562
New York
That entire half of the film was just really bad and pointless. Finn was effectively a side kick on his side story, he did nothing and was just a joke of a character while Rose did everything. The entire Canto Bight plotline should have been scrapped for a longer more meaningful infiltration of The Supremacy to give a chance to see more into the First Order and his history with them and characters like Phasma. Such as that cut scene poster earlier.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,616
Honestly, the disservice done to Finn started with the marketing for the first movie and the switcheroo they pulled.
this. is he a Jedi? is he a Han Solo? Is he a love interest? Is he at least a main character? No he's humorous sidekick #1. Someone to be our framing to help us care about Rey, and carry the plot while she acts all confused and mysterious. He befriends the Han Solo character, gives the R2D2 a purpose to exist, and gives the main character direction in the movie.


Just basically call this man The Force. Because that has been Finn's purpose in both movies so far.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,736
Costa Rica
Isn't the point that no matter what the good guys did, they were absolutely fucked? That's why Finn felt meaningless. The desperation felt real. Definitely the best Star Wars film since Empire.

That's because the plot turned everyone into absolute morons. I never felt any desperation, it felt like they deserved it for being that dumb.

"Find this guy I trust"
"Shit, we have problems, let's take literally any other guy and put him up to speed on our very important mission"

Such desperation.
 

foggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,972
Finn has such a great foundation for a character, but he's so anonymous in these movies. Overall the new characters have been very weak. Kylo is the only one that approaches compelling but then he just becomes the stock bad guy again by the end of TLJ.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,691
Having said that, it's the stuff in between those scenes that are really jarring, because TLJ handles Finn very poorly. Not only is his subplot boring, but it's useless to the overall story while making things worse for the good guys.
To all the people on Era, a subplot not resulting in a positive outcome for the protagonists=/=useless to the overall story. Especially when that subplot is where they start developing as characters. 👏

I can't tell you how much I loath the "saving what we love" scene. It's absolutely nonsensical.
Curious what you think the message is?

The worst aspect is it actually contradicts what's shown in the film, as Holdo had previously done a similar sacrificial run and it worked to spectacular results
Not only was she saving the people she loved but also it didn't have truly spectacular results. It only stopped the FO from firing, there was an entire siege in the climax of the film because it didn't actually do much of anything to stop the FO.

That's because the plot turned everyone into absolute morons. I never felt any desperation, it felt like they deserved it for being that dumb.

"Find this guy I trust"
"Shit, we have problems, let's take literally any other guy and put him up to speed on our very important mission"

Such desperation.
It's almost like the film portrays that as a bad plan in the first place and that they all should've trusted the older adults who knew what they were doing instead of feeding into Poe's hurt masculinity. 🤔
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,400
They cut out a scene where he tries to talk other stormtroopers out, which I think does a lot for his character

Also this scene which fixes HIM AND PHASMA IN LIKE A MINUTE WAS CUT, WHY

This was my greatest grievance. I was the most excited for what was in store for Captain Phasma and what additional material they would hand to Gwendeline Christie for the character. But fuck me, she had less of a presence and a lesser fight scene than the nameless electric saber Stormtrooper battle in the first film. She just plummeted into the abyss after a snore inducing skirmish, along with my hopes for the film.
 

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
He should really have been a deuteragonist instead of side character. Dude is the first good guy to wield a lightsaber in TFA and he does a pretty good job with it. He's set up as a great underdog protagonist and the story just leaves him in the dust.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,414
Midgar, With Love
It sounds like, for the most part, you and I have similar feelings toward the movie Bor Gullet. When it shines there's very little in the franchise that comes close. When it isn't shining it ranges from decent at best to downright bad. It's refreshing to see someone expressing my opinion in a world that seems hellbent on remaining 50/50 love/hate on the entire movie start to finish.

Personally, emotional highs offset disappointments in media, so I rank The Last Jedi as one of my favorites. The Rey/Kylo/Luke arc is the stuff of legends. But yeah. I like how the end of the "second act" (it's hard to find acts in this film but I do my best) has a lot going on for Finn but overall his arc is not great. Same with Poe, I guess.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,736
Costa Rica
To all the people on Era, a subplot not resulting in a positive outcome for the protagonists=/=useless to the overall story. Especially when that subplot is where they start developing as characters. 👏


Curious what you think the message is?


Not only was she saving the people she loved but also it didn't have truly spectacular results. It only stopped the FO from firing, there was an entire siege in the climax of the film because it didn't actually do much of anything to stop the FO.


It's almost like the film portrays that as a bad plan in the first place and that they all should've trusted the older adults who knew what they were doing instead of feeding into Poe's hurt masculinity. 🤔

The film telling us it's own characters are stupid doesn't make it any better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Don't forget: Finn's story isn't done. If anything TLJ sets him up to be pretty significant to the rebellion. I fully expect him to be one of the most prominent figures.
 

Chris McQueen

Self-requested ban
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,378
London
I literally just thought about how poorly they've treated this character, and now this thread exists. We are one, OP.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,509
Providence, RI
Laughed out loud at the "saving what we love" scene as the rebel cave was obliterated in the background. What the fuck were they thinking? Finn loved the rebellion and all the people in that cave. He just tried to save them. Why did you stop him?!

It wasn't going to work. It would have had little to no impact. Finn was going to sacrifice himself for nothing.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,691
The film telling us it's own characters are stupid doesn't make it any better.
It's almost like the film has the characters make mistakes that they can learn from or something.

Laughed out loud at the "saving what we love" scene as the rebel cave was obliterated in the background. What the fuck were they thinking? Finn loved the rebellion and all the people in that cave. He just tried to save them. Why did you stop him?!
Because it literally wouldn't have done nothing. This is what it would've looked at from the perspective of the FO:
BowedKindlyFluke-small.gif
 
OP
OP
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
To all the people on Era, a subplot not resulting in a positive outcome for the protagonists is not useless to the overall story. 👏

Well... yeah. It's a useless subplot that only makes the characters come off really bad.

Finn, Rose, and Poe should be in the brig at the end of TLJ. If they didn't take matters into their own hands and trusted Holdo, the First Order would never have found out the Resistance was escaping via the escape pods.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,408
An issue i had with the film too, i don't see why Finn couldn't have been a Jedi too, the prequels having multiple Jedi wasn't ever an issue imo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
It's almost like the film has the characters make mistakes that they can learn from or something.
Mistakes are not allowed. That's undertone of one of the most common veins of criticism I've seen.

People *do not* like their heroes to do anything but the right thing, every time, and according to their well-established head canon. Humanity and complexity be damned.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.