The Last Of Us Part II feels like a huge missed opportunity to make players´ decisions matter

[lunanto]

I enjoyed and finished this game around launch window, appreciating its extremely high production values and refined gameplay. At the moment, the excessive length and the repetition of the gameplay loop were my biggest complaints. But now, after thinking about it for a while, I think the biggest flaw of the game it is that forces you to accept character´s decisions that you may not share at all, ultimately leading you to severe frustration, at least in my experience.

In my opinion, one of the key differences between videogames and other mediums is the level of interactivy that can be achieved between the player and what is going on on screen. The game made me experience Ellie´s mistakes one after another, and I couldn´t do anything about it, the controller in my hands didn´t help me with that.

Then the theatre scene happened, and after the gameplay segment, I would have killed Ellie if the game had given me the opportunity. At that point, I already disliked Ellie for her attitude and I was totally on board with Abby´s motivations. The game could have ended there, if the player had more control over the experience. However, designers and programmers are the ones who decide for you. I know at the end of the day we are talking about the story they want to tell, but I prefer videogames when they are more interactive pieces with actions you choose and effects they produce, rather than films in which you are a passive viewer.

At the end of the game, in Santa Barbara, the player is "supposedly" given the opportunity to kill Abby by Ellie´s hands. Well, supposedly. I have watched TONS, and I mean, TONS, of youtubers and players yelling at the screen, hitting their controller and swearing because they really wanted to kill Abby in that situation. But they couldn´t. The game just won´t let them to do that. Yes, the game leaves an impression on you and manages to convey its message. This is specially ironic in a game that supposedly tries to portray a story and a universe from different points of view, but that at the end of the day, just according the creators´ vision.

Wouldn´t have been more satisfying to experience the power to make your own decisions, afecting the development of the story and the possible outcomes?

I understand, and I am not criticising here, that films influence is immense, especially in these kind of productions, and that ND may want to keep a canon storyline, but I personally can´t help but think this is one of the biggest missed opportunities to empower the player and take videogames to a next level in this regard.

EDIT:

I think this short clip may beautifully illustrate my point at a smaller scale:




Why do I have to press square button mandatorily?

First of all, what if I don´t want Nora to die? "What you want is irrelevant, because this isn´t your story, it´s Ellie´s story"

Ok... but then again, if had no telling in the outcome, aka Nora is gonna die no matter what, why the hell you make me press the button? What does it add from a interactivity point of view? This for me isn´t different than seeing a cinematic at all, because I was personally 100% disconnected from what was going on on screen.

I legit remember myself looking Ellie´s face lightened in red for a good minute, not because I didn´t know that was a QTE, but because I refused to believe how absurd that situation was for me as a player.

In the end, I pressed square button repeteadly, just because I had to in order to let the game continue as developers intended.

Click to shrink...

 

[cantbebothered]

not really. its not your story the same way you didnt chose to kill the doctor in the first game

 

[Mary Celeste]

why should a player's decision matter? Games are art and part of what makes games a unique art is that sometimes, yes, the people making the game allow the player to decide the outcome. But not every game should be beholden to that, and TLOU2 would be a weaker game narratively and thematically if it allowed the player to control what happened in the story.

 

[BeeDog]

Couldn't disagree harder if it was possible. The reason both Part II and the first game are among the best games ever is because the entire games are built around complete and minutely plotted stories. Therefore, I couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of choice, I simply followed the visions of a group of people who wanted to tell a specific story and was utterly captivated throughout.

 

[Kalentan]

If the game had given you a choice at the ending, it would have been horrible. The game was never about you, it was about Ellie. That's why the ending of the first game was also as powerful, you had to go with what Joel did, you had no power over him not killing the doctors and taking Ellie away.

 

[BloodHound]

Naughty Dog wanted to tell their story, like 100s of game developers want to. Very few games actually allow you to make critical decisions in their games.

 

[Rodelero]

I mean sure... if it was a completely different type of game.

 

[Diarrhea Day-Lewis]

Well I think that's the good thing about games, is they can force you to do things you don't want to do. Like Joel killing the fireflies to save Ellie but damn the whole world.

Spoiler: Major TLOU2 spoilers

Making the main characters of Part 2 nearly kill each other and then walk away is kinda the point,

like how Wander is killing all the Colossi in SotC to bring back the girl despite making an obvious deal with a demonic being.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

What? But this isn't our vision. Someone else created it and we're in for the journey.
Like almost all games

 

[iksenpets]

I think the problem is given choice, most players would make way more boring, way less flawed versions of Abby/Ellie. It's a story about the characters making bad choices, and your disconnect from their. It brings you around to condemning your protagonists' actions, which doesn't really work if they let you choose.

 

[Tornak]

But that's what good about it and Joel's decision in the first game.

I understand that games have that feature over other media, but hell no, I don't want every choice to be put on me. Not every game has to be a roleyplaying one or tailor to different tastes. I want stories to be told as the writers intend when they want to, especially since you're forced to do stuff you don't want and have conflicting emotions along the way, mostly in the second game. And even more reason to have a guided path when they want to have sequels, otherwise you have a potential mess to deal with in the sequel (which ultimately leads to choices being unimportant and samey in the long run).

That last fight against a completely broken Abby was extra hard since I didn't want it to happen and still I felt like I needed to do so out of obligation. Kinda like what I imagine Ellie's mindset was at that point, actually.

I don't like the prospect of "which ending you got?" with this game.

 

[ColonialRaptor]

I have been hoping that more choice-based gameplay would become more and more of a thing since the success of the Witcher 3 and to an extent it has started to in RPG's but not with as many other games as I would like.

I really hope Cyberpunk is successful and that it will help push more and more devs to allow players to have more choice. I completely agree that your suggestions of giving the player choice in certain situations would have put this game on a whole other level.

On another level the choice options give games a whole other level of replayability which I'm really looking forward to with CP2077. I just hope it's fun to actually play!

 

[Ricky_R]

To be honest, I don't play ND games for narrative choice. I like to dive in into their narrative direction.

 

[jett]

What made you think this is a TellTale game?

When you read a novel do you wish it was a choose-your-own-adventure children's book instead?

 

[Patitoloco]

Nope!

For the same reason you don't get a choice at the end of TLOU 1. You're not supposed to make the choice. The characters do.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

It is the story of the characters, not mine.

Player decisions would be awful.

 

[Aprikurt]

They're telling a story. Your decision doesn't matter.

These are the EXACT same people who claim we should have let Ellie die at the end of TLOU1, then we don't even get TLOU2.

 

[Rosebud]

Not every game needs choices. Especially not because players really want to avenge a digital character.

Look at Gears 5 ending and how it lacked impact.

 

[sideofries]

Why are you looking for player choices in a linear, deeply narrative driven, single player game? It's like looking for a meaningful narrative in a rogue-lite.

 

[Nakenorm]

Wouldn´t have been more satisfying to experience the power to make your own decisions, afecting the development of the story and the possible outcomes?

Click to shrink...

Nah, not for me. I definitely prefer when a game tells me a story instead of giving me the choice of creating my own.

 

[Much]

Nah, I like that they tell me the story. Too many games are following this idea now of making the player decide the story, imo.

 

[Deleted member 198]

I'd honestly settle even for a gag alternate ending like Far Cry 4

 

[Deleted member 864]

Big disagree.

I don't play ND games for narrative choice, I play it for their narrative direction.

 

[giancarlo123x]

Im glad there weren't choices and got a definitive ending.

 

[Muitnorts]

They told the story they wanted to tell. It wouldn't have been nearly as effective or impactful if you could do what you wanted.

Its not a choose your own adventure and having control of the character doesn't mean you need to dictate how that character thinks and acts at every point of the story. I'm glad the game exists as it does.

 

[Knight613]

If you thought Ellie should kill Abby at the end you literally missed the point of the entire game.

 

[Deleted member 44122]

the story would be way less impactful if they let you chose to kill either ellie or abby in certain situations. just because games can give you a choice doesnt mean they have to and it doesnt mean theyre worse if they dont

 

[Castamere]

At the end of the game, in Santa Barbara, the player is "supposedly" given the opportunity to kill Abby by Ellie´s hands. Well, supposedly. I have watched TONS, and I mean, TONS, of youtubers and players yelling at the screen, hitting their controller and swearing because they really wanted to kill Abby in that situation. But they couldn´t. The game just won´t let them to do that. Yes, the game leaves an impression on you and manages to convey its message. This is specially ironic in a game that supposedly tries to portray a story and a universe from different points of view, but that at the end of the day, just according the creators´ vision.

Click to shrink...

I must be fucked in the head then. I let Abby kill Ellie dozens of times because she deserved it and I didn't want the story to end with Abby dying.

And to your question no, this wasn't a story or game about choice. A game like this couldn't exist b with choice because no one would make the choices needed to get to the fucked conclusion. Sometimes there aren't good choices or good people.

 

[Gravity Insanity]

One of the reasons why I like Naughty Dog games is because I want to experience the story they tell.

 

[Shark]

I have watched TONS, and I mean, TONS, of youtubers and players yelling at the screen, hitting their controller and swearing because they really wanted to kill Abby in that situation. But they couldn´t.

Click to shrink...

Disturbing.

These complaints could be levied at any game where a character makes any decision independent of the user and it seems only recently that this game became a lightning rod for it.

Give me vision and commitment to the characters and story the game wants to tell over some forced binary 'decision' any day. Sorry your blood lust for a character couldn't be quenched.

 

[Dynedom]

Not all games need to be make-your-own-choice style adventures. Sometimes, you just need to go with what a storyteller wants.

You may not like it and that's fine. Just like you may not like how a film or book progresses/ends. Just because a video game is interactive, doesn't necessarily mean every experience needs to be liberated from this lack of choice.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I think The Last of Us Part II does an awful job in generally understanding that it's a video game and chooses all kind of compromises everywhere. There doesn't necessarily need to be a choice, but I think you do touch on why this game doesn't necessarily do its job as a video game and its one of the few experiences I'll genuinely say doesn't really feel like it needs to be a game at the end of the day, and perhaps even could have been a better overall project if they weren't constrained by the need to a make a palatable and fun "mainstream" game behind the varying degrees of a story they're trying to tell people. Because, honestly, I don't have any more or less emotion playing these characters when compared to just watching them walk through the story beats and the game is forcing every single choice on you, so the investment doesn't really hit either. I don't think much is gained by the player being forced to do things they don't want to do in a game like this, especially when most of the conclusions of said forced choices don't really seem like the nail the landings.

The Last of Us Part II desperately wants to make deeper points, but has no idea how to really get to many of them and frustratingly leaves many of its best opportunities to do on the table.

 

[Raonak]

100% Disagree.

Pulling away interactivity and forcing the player to become the character in the game, rather than the puppeteer is what TLOU1&2 does really well.
The flow from controlling a character, and then watching them do questionable things is a relatively unique experience. It's why the ending for TLOU1 was so powerful, because you were robbed of the choice, in the same way ellie was robbed of her choice to die.

It's, ironically, one of the things that can only be done in an interactive medium.

 

[microtransaction]

The only player decision that a game should respect is the decision to explore freely without a character telling them to "hurry up".

 

[Deleted member 8784]

I get you OP, but I fully understand why others would feel absolutely the other way as well.

The one thing that games can contribute that no other storytelling medium can is that the person experiencing the story has an active role to play in deciding what the characters do within that story. Taking away that choice I feel removes that unique 'flavour' that games could offer storytelling, in the attempt of replicating books or cinema.

I fully get why people prefer that (especially the claims that players would never choose to create such interesting characters themselves), but I do also feel that this approach turns away from what makes video game storytelling unique. It's a good thing this industry is big enough to allow for both.

Edit: The thing I struggle with mostly about The Last of Us II is that it spends half the game pushing "Get revenge against Abby" as the main goal of the player - before completely turning that around and making Abby's death a "fail state" in the second half. That's odd.

 

[Dever]

Literally every linear story-based game makes "choices" for you in cutscenes, yet people only complain about it in Part II for whatever reason. Yawn

 

[Persagen]

Not every game needs choices. Especially not because players really want to avenge a digital character.

Look at Gears 5 ending and how it lacked impact.

Click to shrink...

Agreed, and Gears 5 was the first game I thought of as an example of how it can go wrong.

 

[Spinluck]

Don't take this personally OP but that is an awful way to approach storydriven media, yes, even interactive storydriven media.

I think The Last of Us Part II does an awful job in generally understanding that it's a video game and chooses all kind of compromises everywhere. There doesn't necessarily need to be a choice, but I think you do touch on why this game doesn't necessarily do its job as a video game and its one of the few experiences I'll genuinely say doesn't really feel like it needs to be a game at the end of the day, and perhaps even could have been a better overall project if they weren't constrained by the need to a make a palatable and fun "mainstream" game behind the varying degrees of a story they're trying to tell people. Because, honestly, I don't have any more or less emotion playing these characters when compared to just watching them walk through the story beats and the game is forcing every single choice on you, so the investment doesn't really hit either. I don't think much is gained by the player being forced to do things they don't want to do in a game like this, especially when most of the conclusions of said forced choices don't really seem like the nail the landings.

The Last of Us Part II desperately wants to make deeper points, but has no idea how to really get to many of them and frustratingly leaves many of its best opportunities to do on the table.

Click to shrink...

TLoU2 is a video game. All this jargin does is tell me that it's not your type of video game and that's FINE.

 

[chrominance]

It should already have been clear from how the first game ended that player choice isn't really what The Last of Us is about. Not sure why you would've expected it here.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Player choice? The game is Ellie and Abby's story. Not the player's. Not every game is about player choice, never has been.

 

[takriel]

Very much agreed. I don't want to watch a movie, I want to interact with this game.

 

[Einchy]

Wouldn´t have been more satisfying to experience the power to make your own decisions, afecting the development of the story and the possible outcomes?

Click to shrink...

No.

A huge part of what makes Part II such an amazing story is the fact that we're experiencing these events but we don't have any choice in the matter. It's heartbreaking to see Abby and Ellie fighting each other, more so knowing that you're hitting the buttons that could lead to their deaths.

Not every game has to be my story.

 

[brees504]

Have you never played a Naughty Dog game before? It's a linear story. Player choice would break everything.

 

[skillzilla81]

How do you miss an opportunity they never wanted?

 

[Euron]

In my opinion, one of the key differences between videogames and other mediums is the level of interactivy that can be achieved between the player and what is going on on screen.

The game made me experience Ellie´s mistakes one after another, and I couldn´t do anything about it, the controller in my hands didn´t help me with that.

Then the theatre scene happened, and after the gameplay segment, I would have killed Ellie if the game had given me the opportunity.

Click to shrink...

The story isn't about you, it's about Ellie. While yes, video games give you options not available in other mediums, that wasn't Naughty Dog's intention here because the story is about Ellie and her flaws, not yours. You are just a passenger.

 

[take_marsh]

Such a missed opportunity would need to be in a new IP. Naughty Dog would need to change up their entire philosophy to make player choice a thing in the narrative, but they've been benifitting from their status quo so I don't see this happening. TLOU2 was definitely not a missed opportunity for this.

 

[danhz]

But thats simply not TLOU2

 

[BeeDog]

Very much agreed. I don't want to watch a movie, I want to interact with this game.

Click to shrink...

Thankfully the video game The Last Of Us Part II has tons of genre-leading third-person action gameplay to show for it.

 

[carlsojo]

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Giving you a choice would undermine the entire narrative arc.

It's an arc. Not a narrative tree.

 

[Mirage]

I get you OP, but I fully understand why others would feel absolutely the other way as well.

The one thing that games can contribute that no other storytelling medium can is that the person experiencing the story has an active role to play in deciding what the characters do within that story. Taking away that choice I feel removes that unique 'flavour' that games could offer storytelling, in the attempt of replicating books or cinema.

I fully get why people prefer that (especially the claims that players would never choose to create such interesting characters themselves), but I do also feel that this approach turns away from what makes video game storytelling unique. It's a good thing this industry is big enough to allow for both.

Click to shrink...

Just watching TLOU2's story wouldn't have felt the same as actually playing it either though I feel. I think there's a unique thing where the game made me not want to fight Ellie in the theater but having to go through with it and then not wanting to fight Abby at the end either.

For me that's a pretty unique video game thing because just watching those scenes play out would have been a different experience. I think it's an interesting thing to explore having you do stuff you might not want the character to be doing.