This on him but also Feige who said yes and got high on the supply and Iger for basically...setting this all up from the jump, and of course, not accepting the deals from SAG earlier and not delaying it a few months more.
"The Marvels" early box office prediction is $50-75mil domestic opening, presales 72% behind Quantumania
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The most devastating polite non review in the business.
The Flash total supremacy is complete.
I was all "this doesn't mean anything!" Then I saw his tweet about "the killer" where he wrote a whole ass essay praising it, and...yeah...
Iger is to blame too, increasing the studio's output and propping up Disney Plus with Star Wars and Marvel was his plan too.
He shares the blame de facto but I don't think he is the main reason for Marvel's woes. He was very hands-on during previous phases and the new breackneck release pace clearly overwhelmed him. We had multiple reports of Feige having to delegate a lot of stuff and not being present anymore in film shoots. I am aware that film fans dislike this producer-led model but it is a fact that Feige is effectively the MCU's showrunner.
Do you think Chapek said to Feige: "I don't want you to make any more Avengers movies, you hear me? Not a single one for at least five years. I don't like making too much money, let the logo die in public consciousness. Also, don't bother making a sequel to Shang-chi. You taking notes Feige? I got more ideas because unlike you I'm such an avid reader of comics: Eternals. That's right baby, make an Eternals movie. It'll be lit. As for post credit stuff, I want you to keep introducing new characters but do nothing with them, it'll drive everyone crazy haha. Just remember, I don't like money or keeping brands alive, no more Avengers movies, I forbid you to make one in phase 4. Finally I've decided Kang is gonna be the big bad, let's debut him on the big screen in an Ant-Man flick."
Or maybe Feige can take some responsibility too.
Who gives a fuck. For the life of me, I don't get some of y'alls need to keep up on the state of affairs in the swamp of those assholes.
In my opinion, not making a new Avengers film, not making a sequel to Shang-Chi yet, introducing new characters or making Kang the next bad guy are not mistakes. These are all conclusions drawn after the fact and none of them are the actual issue. My perspective is that the main thing Marvel Studios messed up was the lack of a cohesive overarching story with forward momentum and the lack of crossovers in general, not Avengers specifically.
The issue is not the lack of a cohesive over arching story. I'm really not sure why people are thinking that, given how previous phases worked out. Nick fury turning up and saying 'Avengers' was not an overarching story.
Making things *more* connected is exactly the opposite of what they should do. What they need to do is focus on making better films. Better plots, better writing, less shitty cgi and 'fix it in post'.
The MCU worked because the films were, on the whole, fun and decently written. You didn't need to do homework to watch them. The post credits scenes were a fun bonus, not 'must see for the next film'. They've lost their way.
Making things *more* connected is exactly the opposite of what they should do. What they need to do is focus on making better films. Better plots, better writing, less shitty cgi and 'fix it in post'.
The MCU worked because the films were, on the whole, fun and decently written. You didn't need to do homework to watch them. The post credits scenes were a fun bonus, not 'must see for the next film'. They've lost their way.
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The much derided 'formula' is what audiences grew accustomed to. Avengers movies worked as a pay-off to character arcs or plotlines set-up earlier in a phase.
Characters also got sequels in a reasonable amount of time. Thor's hammer gets teased in Iron Man 2, we see him in his own movie immediately after. Ant-Man gets an origin movie, we see him again in Civil War soon after, etc. So Shang-chi not appearing on screen for so long is going to bite them in the butt, because franchise fatigue will dent any desire to see his next movie, as it has done to Captain Marvel. I'm sure if Marvels released after Black Widow for example it would have had decent box office. General audiences don't detest Carol and the gang, it's even worse, they just don't give a shit anymore thanks to an avalanche of mediocrity these last few years.
Guys like Chapek and Iger are not fools. They know striking while the iron is hot is fundamental in this line of work. All they wanted from Feige was an increase in productivity. What specifically got produced since Endgame was still in Feige's hands, as was the people hired to write and direct. I can understand him addressing past criticisms of the MCU by hiring people like Chloé Zhao and Nia DaCosta, but at the end of the day, there is still something in the mechanism of the MCU that's getting in the way of the filmmaking process and producing garbage scripts, with ridiculous budgets and bad CGI. The medium of TV has also been severely squandered, which as we now know is because their approach was unorthodox to say the least.
The MCU had a formula. They changed it. Now this is the result.
The post credit scenes back then weren't seen as throw away tidbits though. Thanks to Avengers coming soon after the initial movies, they were then seen as big reveal/set up for it, with the individual movies then all quickly leading to "Avengers". There used to be a lot of hype around them. The post credits scene also included stuff like Cap in the modern day or Thor's hammer falling to Earth, which had immediate pay off back then.
Without an Avengers, now the post-credit scenes suddenly become noise that lead nowhere, and the movies don't feel like they're connected in a big meaningful way, with characters also now disappearing for years. No Avengers basically broke the whole benefit of the MCU model, and if anything just left it as a dead weight (since people can be put off by the glut of material, but there's no real benefit to actually following it all).
Feige probably imagined the "Marvel" brand was now strong enough to carry audiences for years without an actual pay off with an Avengers movie (maybe to appease complaints of fatigue of the model? Or just because he thought it'd make the eventual Avengers movie an even bigger event?), and even the individual characters didn't matter either, and they could sell new characters on the strength of that brand. But obviously now we can tell he was wrong.
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Even ignoring that it's just not a particularly good or interesting movie, man what a complete and utter rejection. Weirdly enough my sister, who never watches MCU movies theatrically, went to see it last night lmao.
This. There never realy was a big overarching story. The Avengers films basically told a new villain of the week story. They weren't the third acts of a story told during a 'phase' (bullshit marketing term anyway).
One of the problems now ili is that now they actually try to build a big overarching story, in stead of just telling fun singular stories that cross over from time to time. The stories are actually hurt by it imo.
But also, even though fans try to downplay it, there is no denying fatigue is real. The MCU is filled with mediocre films that did gangbusters. People did show up for films that were just okay. No they don't anymore because after 30+ movies it has run its course. Some properties and good films will still be succesfull, but Marvel isn't the surefire box office hit it once was.
I feel like it's all tea leaves divining anyway. In a way The Marvels is the most Avengers like movie in all of phase four, with properties from two different shows and previous movies coming together to fight a big bad, and it does the most poorly.
Maybe it was bad luck that the clear overarching storylines were introduced in Eternals and Quantumania, the two most panned MCU movies (though personally I found Eternals probably the only worthwhile movie in phase four), maybe it was arrogance that made them introduce these in lesser movies to sell more tickets for them. Either way I think it was misguided to think that people showed up for all these MCU movies because they were connected "somehow". Fans are salivating about the teased hero in the after after credits movie! Ultra nerds were, most people didn't care, what they did care for was a narrative arc that continued on into the next movie. That's something that's really lacking. Quantumania and The Marvels had this the most, but at the same time, Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel didn't really carry anything with them into this movie. There's no reason to watch this movie, outside of really liking the characters. Which I do, but not enough to buy a theater ticket.
Speaking of really liking the characters, the most criminal thing was not following up on Hawkeye+Yelena.
Anyway, it's probably also just superhero fatigue and too many weak movies.
Maybe it was bad luck that the clear overarching storylines were introduced in Eternals and Quantumania, the two most panned MCU movies (though personally I found Eternals probably the only worthwhile movie in phase four), maybe it was arrogance that made them introduce these in lesser movies to sell more tickets for them. Either way I think it was misguided to think that people showed up for all these MCU movies because they were connected "somehow". Fans are salivating about the teased hero in the after after credits movie! Ultra nerds were, most people didn't care, what they did care for was a narrative arc that continued on into the next movie. That's something that's really lacking. Quantumania and The Marvels had this the most, but at the same time, Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel didn't really carry anything with them into this movie. There's no reason to watch this movie, outside of really liking the characters. Which I do, but not enough to buy a theater ticket.
Speaking of really liking the characters, the most criminal thing was not following up on Hawkeye+Yelena.
Anyway, it's probably also just superhero fatigue and too many weak movies.
The thing you are not taking into account is the effect of covid.
The formula changed because covid destroyed the original plan.
I don't think that changes anything to be honest, it just rearranged the timeline, not the content being produced. How about giving us Captain Marvel 2 instead of Black Widow?
it did change the content being produced. Many projects had extensive reshoots to change their story because of the new schedule and the way various projects followed each other was shuffled. If you see the original order, Falcon and Winter Soldier was meant as an Endgame epilogue, while Wandavision, Loki, Dr Strange 2 and Spider-man NWH formed a cohesive quadrilogy. The Black Widow film was sabotaged for years by Ike Perlmutter and it was something the fans wanted very much.
Marvel did mess up the execution of some of its projects but the schedule itself was something they had no control over for almost two years. More TV shows were shoehorned between the delayed films, further breaking apart narrative cohesion, because theaters were essentially off limits and streaming was Disney's main avenue for new content.
Chuds have nothing to do with this movie tanking. It was the shadowy Anti-Ant-Man cabal all along.
I agree with both you and cognizant - I think the issues lie in between? Post Endgame should probably have focused on building around Captain Marvel, with a sequel focused solely on fleshing out her character and her story. Let's be honest, CM1 did not do Carol enough justice and didn't let Brie really shine and establish herself as the one of the next anchors of the MCU.
But it's also true that Covid and subsequent reshuffling of the movies and shows impacted the stories themselves. There are clear signs in many of the p4/p5 content where certain scenes seemed out of place as if they were part of a completely different version of the story that ended up being delivered.
However, I think Marvel focused too much on forcing the movies and shows to conform to an overarching narrative as opposed to making good standalone movies and shows that loosely tie together, because that's all you really need to get to an Avengers movie. At the end of the day, if you make a few great movies and shows with characters that people like AND have draw power, then you can just connect them through post credit scenes alone.
Perhaps the original pre-Covid plan might have made more narrative sense but I'm not sure if that would have fixed the poor writing, stretching Feige's attention thin, the dysfunctional method of producing TV shows, etc.
My boy Aaron having such a rough time he got his initials nicked.
To be fair, he's been like this with various MCU films in past. He didn't say much about IM3, BP and the only takeaway he had about Thor Ragnarok was Chris Hemsworth haircut lol
Well IM3 is pretty bad, and I think Ragnarok's overrated. BP though is pretty good, at least the first. Haven't seen WF.
It's the bomb!
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That better not stand for Iron Man 3, a top tier Marvel movie. I'm starting to think some of y'all just don't like Shane Black films.
I don't have a problem with Shane Black's style. I'm sorry though I just don't think Iron Man 3 is good. And I even like the themes and stuff it attempts to dive into, but I don't think it was executed well.
Maybe it would have been a better movie on it's own right with original characters and what not, but especially within the context of the MCU I found it to be pretty wack all around.
I rarely go to movies these days because $$ but got free tickets and saw this. It was mid af. I thought captain marvel was slightly above average, I would put this at below average. Brie Larson was my fave part but that is more so because I like her in the role rather than anything that was written for her in this lol. I do not share the love affair with Iman as some others do. I feel like her acting is not good...she feels like she was transplanted from a daytime disney tv show into the MCU. That's the only way I can think of describing it. Love her personality and happy for her outside of the movie (shoutout to fellow Canadian) but just how I feel. And this movie relies on her quite a bit as a crutch or something. I also enjoy Monica but also at the same time couldn't possibly care less about her.
Ultimately bland and forgettable. Some cool action. Not much else. More relevant to this thread, the theatre was almost empty. Went evening time on a Saturday. Maybe too early? Not sure, haven't been to the movies in a minute.
Ultimately bland and forgettable. Some cool action. Not much else. More relevant to this thread, the theatre was almost empty. Went evening time on a Saturday. Maybe too early? Not sure, haven't been to the movies in a minute.
Nothing is announced, so we are years away from the next one. So it fits perfectly with the rest of the MCU now with giant gaps between releases.
Really funny how the situation turned around. First it was, well Spiderman needs the MCU to remain relevant, now the position of power is reversed and the MCU absolutely needs Spiderman. He's it, they will not get bigger than him and they will not get bigger without him so Disney is going to have to pony the fuck up if they want that train to keep rolling.
On their 100th Anniversary no less. WB is lucky Barbie was huge otherwise their 100th anniversary would've been like that too.
I mean, Disney lost nearly a billion dollars just with their summer films alone. Even if The Marvels magically ended up being their Barbie it would still have been a bad year all things considered. But the way it performed, and probably how Wish will too, puts this one in the history books.
It only shows that Disney film budgets are way too high and set the company up for colossal failure when they repeatedly misfire in a single year.
Yeah. I'm in agreement with the sentiment that it's been an absolute mess post end-game. You can see what they were going for obviously, but sidelining the heroes everyone loves for so long to provide some exposition and introduce new characters is hubris, bad prognostication, or both. I also wish Sony hadn't fucked up the symbiote storyline but what are you gonna do. Could have been great having Captain Marvel, Spider-man, and Falcon Cap leading a new group and providing a foundation for future storylines rather than starting from scratch.
Like the SW sequels, Disney are really quite adept at making cataclysmic head-shaking decisions.
Like the SW sequels, Disney are really quite adept at making cataclysmic head-shaking decisions.
Who cares. Chuds will say "go woke go broke" at every fucking film and TV show till it sticks.
Like, they did it with House of the Dragon only to be humiliated later.
That's the intelligence level of these people. Don't give them any attention.
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