Timexy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
256
Does it strike anyone else as odd that neither MS or ABK have actually (publicly anyway) filed the CAT appeal?

Isn't the deadline next week?

Nope. These takes time and will probably be filed closer to the deadline. Also I'm ceartain they were waiting for EU approval so they could use some of their argument on the appeal (if not the approval itself).

Edit: not the approval as in "EU approved, why won't CMA?", but the arguments used for the approval.
 

Simdog497

Member
Aug 26, 2022
767
Nope. These takes time and will probably be filed closer to the deadline. Also I'm ceartain they were waiting for EU approval so they could use some of their argument on the appeal (if not the approval itself).

Edit: not the approval as in "EU approved, why won't CMA?", but the arguments used for the approval.
Would've thought the sooner the better.
 

wo1f-cola

Member
May 3, 2023
246
In some ways I agree, there absolutely is risk in striking too hard to prevent bad outcomes that you damage the very thing you were trying to protect. That being said, how do you regulate future markets without speculation of what it could be in the future?

I absolutely don't believe the CMA is without question here, but I don't see their decision as incompetent, but a decision made in hopes it protects a market in the long run, whilst reigning in the power of a player who could have overwhelming dominance in the Cloud market if left unchecked

And whilst I do share the concerns of the market being damaged, the fact is MS have publicly stated they intend to continue investment in that strategy regardless of the merger outcome. Further, as the market grows (if, I suppose) then more players in that market should encourage growth and investment from other publishers etc

But again, we don't know any of this for certain. The EU chose to focus on current situation vs CMA speculation. I don't think either choice is "wrong" just different
You're absolutely right, there is nuance and complexity to the situation. Like most things there are pros and cons to this merger. That's why the CMA's report is so funny because they really didn't make a nuanced decision at all. It's like they oversimplified the situation to make the decision easier.

  1. The Nintendo deal they didn't consider as a benefit and said it was impossible to port COD to the console. Accepting this as a benefit might have made the decision of whether or not to block more difficult.
  2. The 10 year deal to cloud providers was a trap according to the CMA and the providers all asking for the deal, and their customers wouldn't actually benefit according to the CMA. Again, easier to ignore clear as day benefits if you've already decided to block the deal.
  3. The only benefit they acknowledge with the deal was ABK titles on Gamepass, but even that they downplayed and undermined. They said ABK titles on Gamepass would be good for consumers, but without the deal ABK titles were going to be added soon to multiple game subscription services.
  4. As for trying to understand the history of cloud gaming, it's development so far, and it's realistic growth potential, the CMA just adopted this weirdly optimistic belief that cloud gaming was a magical golden goose that was going to blow gold everywhere in just over 1 year, and that it must be protected at all costs. Rather than be honest about uncertainty of cloud gaming ever becoming a viable alternative to console gaming, and the realistic timeline for that to ever become a reality, they pretty much lied about what cloud gaming has the potential to be in the next 2-5 years.


They really look like amateurs on the world stage right now and not the tough as nails regulator they thought they'd be.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Dec 1, 2017
218
Does it strike anyone else as odd that neither MS or ABK have actually (publicly anyway) filed the CAT appeal?

Isn't the deadline next week?
Not at all, if you have a few weeks to file a response why not use all the time you have to make it instead of rushing one out. I'd imagine it will take a while to list all the issues MS had with the CMA report plus that report was 400 pages long. Now MS also has the EC report and it's remedies to add as well.
 

Deleted member 133522

Mar 20, 2023
583
It's definitely true that Microsoft's reputation matters to Microsoft. But so does the CMA's reputation to the CMA. That's why they're out there trying to justify their opinion and why the idea that it's a guarantee they'll arrive to the same conclusion again even if they're rebuked during an appeal is silly.

It would hurt the UK much more in the long term than it does Microsoft for the country to be viewed as the home of a capricious organization that will simply invent a reason to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion.

This so much. Reputation matters - specifically when it comes to regulators. People can talk about how they're anti-corporation or against mega mergers, but that is irrelevant to the outcome of MS-ABK. As it currently stands, there needs to be valid concerns in regard to consumers or competition in order to block a merger. CMA has laid out their reasoning. If the CAT says this reasoning isn't valid, then there's no reason to think the CMA couldn't come to a different conclusion. They can't just say "we're blocking it because corporations bad".

Yes, maybe the appeal is lost, or maybe the CMA does believe there's justification to block even after a successful appeal. But to say any of this is a foregone conclusion because "they'll find a way to block it anyway" is essentially to say the CMA doesn't have integrity as a regulator.
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,161
UK
You're absolutely right, there is nuance and complexity to the situation. Like most things there are pros and cons to this merger. That's why the CMA's report is so funny because they really didn't make a nuanced decision at all. It's like they oversimplified the situation to make the decision easier.

  1. The Nintendo deal they didn't consider as a benefit and said it was impossible to port COD to the console. Accepting this as a benefit might have made the decision of whether or not to block more difficult.
  2. The 10 year deal to cloud providers was a trap according to the CMA and the providers all asking for the deal, and their customers wouldn't actually benefit according to the CMA. Again, easier to ignore clear as day benefits if you've already decided to block the deal.
  3. The only benefit they acknowledge with the deal was ABK titles on Gamepass, but even that they downplayed and undermined. They said ABK titles on Gamepass would be good for consumers, but without the deal ABK titles were going to be added soon to multiple game subscription services.
  4. As for trying to understand the history of cloud gaming, it's development so far, and it's realistic growth potential, the CMA just adopted this weirdly optimistic belief that cloud gaming was a magical golden goose that was going to blow gold everywhere in just over 1 year, and that it must be protected at all costs. Rather than be honest about uncertainty of cloud gaming ever becoming a viable alternative to console gaming, and the realistic timeline for that to ever become a reality, they pretty much lied about what cloud gaming has the potential to be in the next 2-5 years.


They really look like amateurs on the world stage right now and not the tough as nails regulator they thought they'd be.

MS kind of did the damage to the Cloud benefit points themselves by fudging the numbers with the huge PR run they did (150 million more gamers having CoD etc) that painted them as disingenuous to the CMA - And as much as the deals were made, the CMA, I feel, were quite right to see them as merely tools to help the merger get through, as opposed to a genuine commitment to the idea of more access for gamers.

That said, yes, I do believe there were and could have been benefits from the merger, especially for the short term. But again, that's the issue many disagree on here, whether it was right to focus on the potential future scenario Vs the evidenced numbers we have now. EU chose the latter, CMA the former. They still maintained broadly aligned concerns though, just solutions to these concerns were different (I.e Remedies for EU, Divestment or Block for CMA)

I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that either position is inherently wrong.
 

Simdog497

Member
Aug 26, 2022
767
Not at all, if you have a few weeks to file a response why not use all the time you have to make it instead of rushing one out. I'd imagine it will take a while to list all the issues MS had with the CMA report plus that report was 400 pages long. Now MS also has the EC report and it's remedies to add as well.



Tin foil hat time.

The CMA appeal is going to take months (years?). That puts it well past the July deadline where the two companies have to renegotiate the deal.

They also have a court battle with the FTC coming up.

While the EC did approve the deal, the concession that Microsoft had to offer sounds really onerous (expensive) to implement and lessens the value of the deal in the medium term for Microsoft.

I can almost guarantee that ABK will want more money and a higher breakup fee when they renegotiate.

Unlikely at this point I know, but part of me thinks Microsoft will just let the appeal time lapse and pay the breakup fee.

Guess we'll see what happens this week.
 

Bessy67

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,725
Tin foil hat time.

The CMA appeal is going to take months (years?). That puts it well past the July deadline where the two companies have to renegotiate the deal.

They also have a court battle with the FTC coming up.

While the EC did approve the deal, the concession that Microsoft had to offer sounds really onerous (expensive) to implement and lessens the value of the deal in the medium term for Microsoft.

I can almost guarantee that ABK will want more money and a higher breakup fee when they renegotiate.

Unlikely at this point I know, but part of me thinks Microsoft will just let the appeal time lapse and pay the breakup fee.

Guess we'll see what happens this week.
There's no way anyone at Activision is getting anywhere close to $95 a share without the MS deal. The Activision board will do anything they can to preserve the current deal, it won't be them that kills it.
 

Deleted member 133522

Mar 20, 2023
583
Tin foil hat time.

The CMA appeal is going to take months (years?). That puts it well past the July deadline where the two companies have to renegotiate the deal.

They also have a court battle with the FTC coming up.

While the EC did approve the deal, the concession that Microsoft had to offer sounds really onerous (expensive) to implement and lessens the value of the deal in the medium term for Microsoft.

I can almost guarantee that ABK will want more money and a higher breakup fee when they renegotiate.

Unlikely at this point I know, but part of me thinks Microsoft will just let the appeal time lapse and pay the breakup fee.

Guess we'll see what happens this week.

I don't think it's tin foil hat, it's a valid possibility. ABK and MS have both stated their intention is to fight, and there isn't a lot of reason to doubt their word on that, but it's obviously a dynamic situation and it's impossible to know what conversations are happening at either company behind closed doors.

I would say that both have a lot of motivation to see this through.
 

Simdog497

Member
Aug 26, 2022
767
There's no way anyone at Activision is getting anywhere close to $95 a share without the MS deal. The Activision board will do anything they can to preserve the current deal, it won't be them that kills it.

Activision won't kill it, but they'll definitely ask for better terms.

Their financial performance has been excellent recently. They're pretty undervalued right now IMO.
 
Feb 19, 2023
1,934
CMA putting out a statment after the EU made a different decision, reiterating that they stand by their decision even after that and pointing out why they see it differently is considered mad.

But Bobby and Lulu and Brad constantly putting out statments showing their anger, indirectly threatening the UK/CMA is all reasonable?

Gottcha.

Using a strawman is not a gotcha.

People are recently talking about the EU approval and the subsequent immediate CMA response, which seems extremely out of character for them. Idas even chimed in about how obvious it is that they seem pressured, and gave an example of how they normally act when opposing an EU decision. Hence, the discussion is about that. I wouldn't exactly say they're "mad," but like many others have stated, they seem insecure and oddly aggressive (probably because, whilst having a cloud SLC, EU contradicts many of the CMAs notions and ToHs).

Talking about Kotick or Lulu et al and how they're actually the mad ones due to prior statements seems like an odd rebuttal and a wierd strawman. Not only that, but why is it okay for the CMA to be weirdly aggressive with their neighbors across the pond that they have no juristiction over but it's not okay for ABK executives to be angry that their business is being forever jeopordized and unable to be sold and/or merged (as has already been stated in the past, they will be nigh unsellable if the deal falls through barring very limited options, none of which are good for us gamers)? Why is one posture so different than the other? Posturing is posturing.

Anyway, if it hasn't been obvious, this has turned extremely political (if it wasn't already, it's at least way more then it was).
 

GamerEDM

Member
May 7, 2020
2,312
Tin foil hat time.

The CMA appeal is going to take months (years?). That puts it well past the July deadline where the two companies have to renegotiate the deal.

They also have a court battle with the FTC coming up.

While the EC did approve the deal, the concession that Microsoft had to offer sounds really onerous (expensive) to implement and lessens the value of the deal in the medium term for Microsoft.

I can almost guarantee that ABK will want more money and a higher breakup fee when they renegotiate.

Unlikely at this point I know, but part of me thinks Microsoft will just let the appeal time lapse and pay the breakup fee.

Guess we'll see what happens this week.

Microsoft has unlimited amounts of money to fight this deal . I work for a canadian telecommunication company ( Shaw / Roger) that just went through this and they are billion NOT trillion dollar companies and they fought for that deal tooth and nail . Numerous extensions over 2 year period but they did not stop fighting until deal recently passed.
 

LilScooby77

Member
Dec 11, 2019
11,248
The 'intervene' thing is one part of it - the risk that they might actually create a distortion in the market, but also the risk that they may not be specified comprehensively enough vs how the market evolves, the risk that they could be circumvented in more or less subtle ways, and then also, yeah, the complexity of monitoring. The limited duration of them vs a possibly indefinite SLC. So stuff like all that leads them to typically prefer structural remedies unless a structural remedy wouldn't be feasible or would destroy big consumer benefits of a deal.

In terms of 'intervention'/'distortion', one thing they don't like about MS's cloud remedies for example is that they think this idea of flat licensing to any comer would actually be an artificial limit vs a situation where competitors could negotiate bespoke deals on different terms that differentiate their product. Counter intuitive though that may seem to those who prefer content to be equally accessible everywhere, the CMA sees this content as an axis along which entrants should be able to compete, and not have that sort of lowest-common-denominator-ed down to open terms (not least controlled by one other rival of those companies).
Love your posts.👍
 

zou

Member
Oct 29, 2017
746
Seems like the only way MS has a path forward with the CMA is if the CAT does take on an appeal AND determine that the Cloud SLC is irrational/whatever terminology to throw it out. Then, if the CMA gets it back and has to make a report without the Cloud SLC concern, then that means there's no SLC left, no? But that's all I can think of. Seems like a really tough task even with the EC evidence or determination, because they are different jurisdictions and market realities.

I'm pretty sure the CMA being forced to abandon hardware console SLC concerns is what gave use the clown shoes cloud SLC argument. Can't wait to see what they come up with when they are forced to abandon that one as well.
 

Yoga Flame

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 8, 2022
1,674
CMA putting out a statment after the EU made a different decision, reiterating that they stand by their decision even after that and pointing out why they see it differently is considered mad.

But Bobby and Lulu and Brad constantly putting out statments showing their anger, indirectly threatening the UK/CMA is all reasonable?

Gottcha.
It's out of character and they come across as insecure. There was no need for any explanation about their decision, but they did so anyway. They even took EC concern and misrepresented their outlook. EC firmly state the deal is good for competition, and cloud isn't a market but CMA cherry picked the concern part, removed the context EC applied then used that as validation for their belief that the merger is a net bad with MS dictating all the rules (which is a nonsense) for gaming. EC didn't put out tweets about CMA decision from what I know, they still haven't, fact CMA are commenting on another regulatory ruling for a region they have no oversight over does come across as unprofessional.
 
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Theonlytman2

Member
Jan 16, 2023
217
It's out of character and they come across as insecure. There was no need for any explanation about their decision, but they did so anyway. They even took EC concern and misrepresented their outlook. EC firmly state the deal is good for competition, but they framed the concern as validation for their belief that it's bad. EC didn't put out tweets about CMA decision from what I know, fact they're commenting on another regulatory ruling for a region they have no oversight over is unprofessional.
The CMA and EC definitely have different philosophies in competition regulation. The EC sees Activision as an opportunity to grow a new market as it super-charges a successful Microsoft model that can level the playing field. We saw that Stadia failed due to lack of interesting games as well as bad latency. When you have many start-ups and other companies like Netflix or Amazon trying to get into the field, Microsoft being forced to put Call of Duty on their platforms is a huge opportunity for a diverse market that provide advantages to attract consumers. The CMA meanwhile, seems to believe in a non-observing approach where companies just naturally evolve into a market without their overview. My issue with the CMA's approach is that Activision's most profitable model is pay-to-play. They didn't add their games on Stadia nor Luna, not even Xbox Game Pass had any ABK titles. COD MW22 had the third biggest video game launch in history at $800 million dollars, and that was because of pay-to-play. When you have a bigger company than Activision that wants to provide opportunity in their subscription service, it's a very big evolution in how people play. No longer will you have to pay full price to play Call of Duty. It can be accessed through a lower budget subscription. Also, with Microsoft counting in Nintendo and cloud, no longer does Call of Duty or other ABK games require expensive hardware to play. It can now be played on phones, tablets, work PCs just through proper internet connection. I agree that with a new industry like cloud, the other competitors need a leg-up because of how high the barrier is to enter. The CMA should not punish Microsoft over successfully launching a market. It should instead seek an opportunity to grow that market. Keeping the status quo of Activision's pay-to-play model is not going to evolve cloud gaming.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,485
United States
Yeah, I'm kinda confused by this. Does this mean anyone (Sony/Nvidia/Amazon) can get CoD on their cloud service for free for the next decade?
If the consumer purchases the game. Not in the platform holder's streaming subs.

So, the platform holder would have to have the infrastructure in place for that type of scenario in the first place to take advantage of it.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,255
Toronto
Can someone explain how this whole cloud license works for the EU ruling?

I'm a cloud Game Streaming provider. I want to offer Microsoft and ABK titles on my service. I go to Microsoft and say "I can has deal please". Microsoft legally has to send over a standardized contract with the terms they agreed to with the EU in them.

If Microsoft tries to jerk me over, I take that contract and give it to the EU and the EU punishes Microsoft with a massive fine that's a percentage of global turnover. If the terms are as expected, I sign and return the contract. Now I can offer Microsoft games on my service, for free, as long as I can verify that the user owns a license already.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,485
United States
It's not in the streaming sub, yall.

It's specifically if you buy the game you will be able to use any streaming provider to play that game. The only sub getting it is GP. Without TONS of money.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,317
Yeah, I'm kinda confused by this. Does this mean anyone (Sony/Nvidia/Amazon) can get CoD on their cloud service for free for the next decade?

Many current cloud gaming services are essentially PC rentals, which allow you to install games you own on a PC hosted in a server farm somewhere.

Many publishers, sensing an opportunity to earn more money through dealmaking, decided to put their foot down and demand these services not allow their games to be used in this fashion. This wasn't tested in court iirc but the threat was enough and overnight GeForce Now lost a lot of Steam games.

What this new agreement basically means is that any cloud provider will be allowed to do basically what GeForce now was doing - logging that end user's credentials into a platform where they own a copy of the game, and then handling inputs/outputs over the network. I haven't read the full text but the impression that I got was that its permissive enough that it might also apply to console versions that e.g. Sony could do where they might let you stream CoD if you own a digital copy and are subbed PS+ Extra Premium or w/e simultaneously.

It does not mean that they can give away free copies of the latest CoD with their subscription services.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,251
European Commission (EC)
Competition and Markets Authority (CMA)
Market Definitions (from Phase 2/In-Depth Review)
  • Console market
  • PC Operating Systems
  • Distribution of console and PC video games, including multi-game subscription services and cloud gaming services.
    • The EC notes cloud gaming is an "innovative market segment" and highlights competition concerns in the "distribution of games".
    • "For us, [cloud game streaming] is not a separate market, it's a segment of the overall [video games] market." (Financial Times)
  • Console gaming services
    • They did not consider it appropriate to further segment the console market by console type, but assess the closeness of competition by rivals.
    • Console gaming services incorporates the console hardware, integrated storefront, including B2P and MGS.
  • Cloud gaming services
  • Game publishing markets (each for PC, console, and mobile).
    • Genres were not concluded as its own market and considered in the scope of publishing.
Potiential harm to competition / SLCs results
  • WOULD NOT concern competition in rival consoles and rival multi-game subscription services
    • MS would have no incentive to refuse to continue distributing to Sony, and have strong incentives to continue to.​
    • Even if they did, it would not harm competition in this market.​
    • Activision would not have made its games available on a MGS and MGS providers are therefore unimpacted.​
  • WOULD harm competition in the distribution of PC and console games via cloud game streaming services
    • Activision games exclusive to its own cloud service, Game Pass Ultimate, and withheld them from other providers, would reduce competition.
  • WOULD strengthen the position of Windows in the market for PC operating systems if games were made exclusive to GPU.
    • Streaming games via non-Windows OS could be degraded.
  • WOULD NOT substantially reduce competition in console gaming services in the UK.
    • Microsoft would not be incentivized to make CoD exclusive to Xbox.
    • Making CoD available on Xbox on better terms than on PlayStation would not materially harm PlayStation.
  • WOULD substantially reduce competition in the Cloud Gaming Services market.
    • MS owns a gaming platform, PC OS, cloud infrastructure already. Estimated 60-70% market share in global cloud gaming services already.
    • Would be incentivized to make ABK games exclusive to GPU.
Relevant Customer/Competition Benefits (considering proposed remedies)
  • The right to stream games purchased or subscribed to via MGS with any cloud game streaming service of their choice, and play them on any device using any operating system.​
  • Boosts the development of cloud game streaming in the EEA and unlocks significant benefits for competition and consumers by bringing Activision's games to new platforms, including smaller EU players, and to more devices than before.​
  • Press summary did not mention RCB of Game Pass inclusions or addition to platforms like Nintendo, unsure of stance or analysis.
  • Game Pass including Activision games seen as an RCB, though its value may degrade over time due to pricing, competition, and it would not see full effects until 2025 (COD).
  • Attempts to enter the mobile gaming market not seen as an RCB: far from certain, given current circumstances of Android and iOS prohibiting rival mobile gaming app stores or strict limits at monetization.
  • No RCB to the Cloud Gaming Services market as the harm from the SLC would be substantially reduced more than any RCBs foregone.
  • "Nintendo RCB" was not accepted as they did not see proof that such benefits would accrue within a reasonable period, there was no concrete timeline/plan in place for developing a Nintendo version, and MS has short-term incentives to enter the agreement + the merged entity would not have more incentive to place CoD on Nintendo than ATVI does already pre-Merger.
View on the "Cloud Remedy" proposal
  • Seen as "solving the problem" of the concerns and "pro-competitive... we think the remedies will kick-start this market"​
  • The 10 year commitment to license the catalog "significantly improves the conditions for the emergence of cloud game streaming."​
  • A commitment to license all-comers for free was "very simple" and "not hard to monitor"; non-compliance would be obvious to anyone seeking a license.​
  • Accepting the behavioral remedy seen as "future proof", since the games will be available to cloud-streaming services regardless of their computer operating system or business model and isn't "prescribing anything".​
    • (Margrethe Vestager interview, and MLex reports for the above)​
  • Cloud gaming is 1% of the market in 2022, and "if the concern was not resolved then the merger could not go ahead", but was able to with the Cloud Remedy. (Vestager interview clip)
    • A Brussels spokesman added that the Commission had "based its decision on hard evidence and on extensive information and feedback", while sources dismissed the UK's concerns about cloud gaming, saying that it accounted for just 1pc to 2pc of the overall market and any potential competition impact was therefore not significant. (telegraph.co.uk)​
  • "Free license access to all Activision games for cloud gaming providers and users, creates opportunities for innovation, and prevents barriers for competitors."​
  • Behavioral remedies apply in cases such as: regulated environments, where there are expert monitors, or where SLC is short windowed.
    • Cloud remedy fits none of these as it is new, unregulated, and expected to continue beyond 10 years.
  • Does not provide commercial relationships between providers and publisher (ATVI) such as Stadia-like storefronts to buy the game for that streaming service, exclusivity deals, joint marketing arrangements, or MGS.
    • Believes Activision would have entered the market by licensing content to streaming services as the market grew over time.
  • Applies to current and future PC and console versions of ABK games, but believes MS would have no incentive to make ABK games on MacOS or Linux, meaning streamers would have to use, or be compatible with, Windows OS versions.
    • Believes absent the Merger, Activision would seek to maximize value from games by considering making non-Windows versions.
    • Does not accept Microsoft's reasons for not committing to making all ABK games compatible with Proton or other 3rd party compatibility layer software. Microsoft proposed to commit to not degrading compatibility layers, but shouldn't be responsible for 3rd party development and in some cases could need incompatibility (such as anti-cheat or anti-hacks). CMA found such stipulations arbitrary and hard to enforce.
  • Found it to be "only for 10 years [representing] a clear weakness in terms of its effectiveness as a comprehensive solution to the SLC, which is not itself time limited".
  • Considers it to be very difficult to monitor and enforce this remedy, even with significant information gathering, as well as several additional concerns with the practicalities of implementing the remedy.

Tried my best at summarizing the two using as much direct wording from the reports/summaries or other primary/secondary sources.

To me, it looks like they both received the same exact Cloud Remedy proposal and they diverged significantly in their view of the market definitions and the impact to the market.

If you have any feedback or additions to add lmk
 
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EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,720
If MS left the UK , would this also be seen as an anticompetitive move , as it would I give Sony and Nintendo too much power? 😅

Would that create some kind of paradox that causes everything ti collapse in on itself?
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,485
United States

Tried my best at summarizing the two using as much direct wording from the reports/summaries or other primary/secondary sources.

To me, it looks like they both received the same exact Cloud Remedy proposal and they diverged significantly in their view of the market definitions and the impact to the market.

If you have any feedback or additions to add lmk
This is great work. Good job.

So all these smaller streaming companies are similar to GeoForce Now right?
Yes, that's their whole biz.
 

D.Dragoon

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,312
They were worth over $100 towards the end of 2021, before all the culture issues were made public.

Not saying you can (or should) discount the cultural side of things, but financially, they are in a good spot.
Didn't the pandemic inflate stocks in 2021 because a lot of people were at home? and gaming was one of the things that saw an uptick.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,317
So all these smaller streaming companies are similar to GeoForce Now right?

As far as I understand, yes. None of them to my knowledge offer game libraries included by default or any kind of bespoke hardware you need to port to like Stadia.

IMO, this is part of what made it seem a bit silly to be worrying about these kinds of companies in the first place. It's fair enough for Microsoft to offer them this, and it's not "bad", but I think any serious thinking about the future of cloud gaming will conclude that there's about 5-8 companies who could make serious inroads by making compelling offerings, while all these other bit players are basically "Nvidia but with orders of magnitude less money and no hardware".

99% of the impact will be felt by already advantaged players, like Nvidia and (to some extent, if they want to go this route) Sony and Nintendo, who will have versions of ABK games that would be streamable in principle under this concession.
 

wo1f-cola

Member
May 3, 2023
246
European Commission (EC)
Competition and Markets Authority (CMA)
Market Definitions (from Phase 2/In-Depth Review)
  • Console market
  • PC Operating Systems
  • Distribution of console and PC video games, including multi-game subscription services and cloud gaming services.
    • The EC notes cloud gaming is an "innovative market segment" and highlights competition concerns in the "distribution of games".
    • "For us, [cloud game streaming] is not a separate market, it's a segment of the overall [video games] market." (Financial Times)
  • Console gaming services
    • They did not consider it appropriate to further segment the console market by console type, but assess the closeness of competition by rivals.
    • Console gaming services incorporates the console hardware, integrated storefront, including B2P and MGS.
  • Cloud gaming services
  • Game publishing markets (each for PC, console, and mobile).
    • Genres were not concluded as its own market and considered in the scope of publishing.
Potiential harm to competition / SLCs results
  • WOULD NOT concern competition in rival consoles and rival multi-game subscription services
    • MS would have no incentive to refuse to continue distributing to Sony, and have strong incentives to continue to.
    • Even if they did, it would not harm competition in this market.
    • Activision would not have made its games available on a MGS and MGS providers are therefore unimpacted.
  • WOULD harm competition in the distribution of PC and console games via cloud game streaming services
    • Activision games exclusive to its own cloud service, Game Pass Ultimate, and withheld them from other providers, would reduce competition.
  • WOULD strengthen the position of Windows in the market for PC operating systems if games were made exclusive to GPU.
    • Streaming games via non-Windows OS could be degraded.
  • WOULD NOT substantially reduce competition in console gaming services in the UK.
    • Microsoft would not be incentivized to make CoD exclusive to Xbox.
    • Making CoD available on Xbox on better terms than on PlayStation would not materially harm PlayStation.
  • WOULD substantially reduce competition in the Cloud Gaming Services market.
    • MS owns a gaming platform, PC OS, cloud infrastructure already. Estimated 60-70% market share in global cloud gaming services already.
    • Would be incentivized to make ABK games exclusive to GPU.
Relevant Customer/Competition Benefits (considering proposed remedies)
  • The right to stream games purchased or subscribed to via MGS with any cloud game streaming service of their choice, and play them on any device using any operating system.
  • Boosts the development of cloud game streaming in the EEA and unlocks significant benefits for competition and consumers by bringing Activision's games to new platforms, including smaller EU players, and to more devices than before.
  • Press summary did not mention RCB of Game Pass inclusions or addition to platforms like Nintendo, unsure of stance or analysis.
  • Game Pass including Activision games seen as an RCB, though its value may degrade over time due to pricing, competition, and it would not see full effects until 2025 (COD).
  • Attempts to enter the mobile gaming market not seen as an RCB: far from certain, given current circumstances of Android and iOS prohibiting rival mobile gaming app stores or strict limits at monetization.
  • No RCB to the Cloud Gaming Services market as the harm from the SLC would be substantially reduced more than any RCBs foregone.
View on the "Cloud Remedy" proposal
  • Seen as "solving the problem" of the concerns and "pro-competitive... we think the remedies will kick-start this market"
  • The 10 year commitment to license the catalog "significantly improves the conditions for the emergence of cloud game streaming."
  • A commitment to license all-comers for free was "very simple" and "not hard to monitor"; non-compliance would be obvious to anyone seeking a license.
  • Accepting the behavioral remedy seen as "future proof", since the games will be available to cloud-streaming services regardless of their computer operating system or business model and isn't "prescibing anything".
    • (Margrethe Vestager interview, and MLex reports for the above)
  • Cloud gaming is 1% of the market in 2022, and if the concern was not resolved then the merger could not go ahead, but was able to with the Cloud Remedy.
    • A Brussels spokesman added that the Commission had "based its decision on hard evidence and on extensive information and feedback", while sources dismissed the UK's concerns about cloud gaming, saying that it accounted for just 1pc to 2pc of the overall market and any potential competition impact was therefore not significant. (telegraph.co.uk)
  • "Free license access to all Activision games for cloud gaming providers and users, creates opportunities for innovation, and prevents barriers for competitors."
  • Behavioral remedies apply in cases such as: regulated environments, where there are expert monitors, or where SLC is short windowed.
    • Cloud remedy fits none of these as it is new, unregulated, and expected to continue beyond 10 years.
  • Does not provide commercial relationships between providers and publisher (ATVI) such as Stadia-like storefronts to buy the game for that streaming service, exclusivity deals, joint marketing arrangements, or MGS.
    • Believes Activision would have entered the market by licensing content to streaming services as the market grew over time.
  • Applies to current and future PC and console versions of ABK games, but believes MS would have no incentive to make ABK games on MacOS or Linux, meaning streamers would have to use, or be compatible with, Windows OS versions.
    • Believes absent the Merger, Activision would seek to maximize value from games by considering making non-Windows versions.
    • Does not accept Microsoft's reasons for not committing to making all ABK games compatible with Proton or other 3rd party compatibility layer software. Microsoft proposed to commit to not degrading compatibility layers, but shouldn't be responsible for 3rd party development and in some cases could need incompatibility (such as anti-cheat or anti-hacks). CMA found such stipulations arbitrary and hard to enforce.
  • Found it to be "only for 10 years [representing] a clear weakness in terms of its effectiveness as a comprehensive solution to the SLC, which is not itself time limited".
  • Considers it to be very difficult to monitor and enforce this remedy, even with significant information gathering, as well as several additional concerns with the practicalities of implementing the remedy.

Tried my best at summarizing the two using as much direct wording from the reports/summaries or other primary/secondary sources.

To me, it looks like they both received the same exact Cloud Remedy proposal and they diverged significantly in their view of the market definitions and the impact to the market.

If you have any feedback or additions to add lmk
This summary is super helpful, especially in the table format.

I could be wrong here, but this comment made me wonder this. It seems like MSFT made concessions to both the CMA and EC, but the EC countered whereas the CMA just said no. Is that just a difference in process for these two regulators, or was the CMA uninterested in exploring additional concessions from MSFT before slamming the door on them?
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,485
United States
If you would have told Boosteroid a year ago that they were going to have license to stream COD, Diablo IV, Starfield, Elder Scrolls, DOOM, Fallout, Halo, Gears, Forza they'd probably tell you that you were crazy.

At the very least, them and the other smaller streaming tech companies are getting all XGS and Bethesda game licenses. So, it's a good thing for the streaming market regardless of outcome here.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,154
Montreal
This summary is super helpful, especially in the table format.

I could be wrong here, but this comment made me wonder this. It seems like MSFT made concessions to both the CMA and EC, but the EC countered whereas the CMA just said no. Is that just a difference in process for these two regulators, or was the CMA uninterested in exploring additional concessions from MSFT before slamming the door on them?

The CMA was interested in concessions - structural ones like selling Activision, selling Activision & Blizzard, etc.

They don't seem to believe in behavioural concessions where the EU does.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,251
This summary is super helpful, especially in the table format.

I could be wrong here, but this comment made me wonder this. It seems like MSFT made concessions to both the CMA and EC, but the EC countered whereas the CMA just said no. Is that just a difference in process for these two regulators, or was the CMA uninterested in exploring additional concessions from MSFT before slamming the door on them?
Without seeing the full documentation it's hard to tell. I initially took Brad Smith's comments and some of the mentions in the press release as an even broader remedy package for cloud streaming vs the CMA's, but I'm not so sure about that.

CMA references that the Cloud Remedy package included licenses to owned titles and subscription services, just like the EC. It also includes the PlayStation console and storefront, just like the EC mentions consoles. MS attempted to cover compatibility layers and other OS's as far as games currently available or to release on OS' like Mac and Linux (i.e WoW, etc) would exist still, but the CMA wasn't satisfied whereas the EC seems to have been or took market tests/3rd party rivals reactions as enough?
 
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wonzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,590
The CMA actually counted every single Game Pass Ultimate member as a "cloud gamer" even though a teeny tiny fraction of those players probably even tried out xCloud? Seriously?
Yes lol

Using the cloud as a reason to block the deal always felt very weak and i'd be surprised if the CTA holds it up, especially after the EU's ruling.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,251
OIF.nBkkvl80MYZnBhwB0HstYg


The pie chart won
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,360
Yes lol

Using the cloud as a reason to block the deal always felt very weak and i'd be surprised if the CTA holds it up, especially after the EU's ruling.
If China and every other regulatory body approves the deal (the FTC will likely get rolled in their own court) leaving the UK as the odd one out, I do wonder how that would look from a political/optics perspective. To be honest, the CAT telling them to eliminate the cloud gaming stuff would allow them to save face by being overruled by a higher power while still appearing to look tough on "big tech."

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out...over the next year or so. :|
 

wonzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,590
User Threadbanned: Trolling
If China and every other regulatory body approves the deal (the FTC will likely get rolled in their own court) leaving the UK as the odd one out, I do wonder how that would look from a political/optics perspective. To be honest, the CAT telling them to eliminate the cloud gaming stuff would allow them to save face by being overruled by a higher power while the CMA still get to appear tough on "big tech."

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out...over the next year or so. :|
I'm hoping for 2 years just so I can see how insanely bitter all the console warriors get.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,251
Idas it seems like the CAT has their own website/case tracking portal where they upload transcripts and so on. But it seems like we won't be getting the same level of detail as with the CMA?

For example, will we even see Microsoft's claims and filing some time shortly after 5/22? Will we hear at any point during the CAT appeal what their stance is publicly?
 

wo1f-cola

Member
May 3, 2023
246
If China and every other regulatory body approves the deal (the FTC will likely get rolled in their own court) leaving the UK as the odd one out, I do wonder how that would look from a political/optics perspective. To be honest, the CAT telling them to eliminate the cloud gaming stuff would allow them to save face by being overruled by a higher power while still appearing to look tough on "big tech."

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out...over the next year or so. :|
All the people in here talking about how the CMA doesn't have unchecked power, and that there is oversight will now be arguing that every other regulatory body and the expert consensus are all wrong, and the the CMA should stick to their guns and kill the deal no matter what.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,378
They were worth over $100 towards the end of 2021, before all the culture issues were made public.

Not saying you can (or should) discount the cultural side of things, but financially, they are in a good spot.

Didn't the pandemic inflate stocks in 2021 because a lot of people were at home? and gaming was one of the things that saw an uptick.

Dragoon is correct. No investor would look at any video game company's stock during COVID and extrapolate that. Almost all of them hit historic peaks during that time, that they won't hit again for awhile (if ever).

(To be clear, not just video games show this; other industries saw a boost during COVID as well)
 

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
6,188
Idas it seems like the CAT has their own website/case tracking portal where they upload transcripts and so on. But it seems like we won't be getting the same level of detail as with the CMA?

For example, will we even see Microsoft's claims and filing some time shortly after 5/22? Will we hear at any point during the CAT appeal what their stance is publicly?
Not sure if it will be as in depth as the CMA, but the EU regulators usually announce, then release documentation later.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,251
Not sure if it will be as in depth as the CMA, but the EU regulators usually announce, then release documentation later.
Yea I asked about the EC posting the full report and he said it could be months.

The above post though was for the CAT and the appeals case documentation rather than the EC case
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,766
(To be clear, not just video games show this; other industries saw a boost during COVID as well)
Heck, there was so much hype for Zoom (NASDAQ: ZM) during the early days of covid that investors were buying shares in the unrelated penny stock Zoom Technologies (NASDAQ: ZOOM) by mistake, significantly driving up its value until the SEC halted its trading.