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Oct 26, 2017
8,207
Via The New Yorker:
n the third episode of "Roseanne," on ABC, Roseanne Conner and her husband, Dan, wake up on their iconic sofa, in Lanford, Illinois. "It's eleven o'clock," Roseanne says. "We slept from 'Wheel' to 'Kimmel.' " Dan replies, "We missed all the shows about black and Asian families." Roseanne squawks, "They're just like us!" Then, sardonically, "There, now you're all caught up."

Take Roseanne's joke. The jab was clearly aimed at "black-ish" and "Fresh Off the Boat," comedies that share ABC's Tuesday schedule with "Roseanne." The line establishes a few things. One is that the Conners don't live in the same America as the Johnsons, from "black-ish," or the Huangs, from "Fresh Off the Boat." There will never be a crossover episode—no fun clash, say, between an aging Jessica Huang and Roseanne, on a Conner trip to Florida. Instead, the Conners are themselvesbored, alienated ABC viewers, unable even to remember titles, just that these are the "black and Asian" shows.

If you read the Hollywood trades, you might sense an unsettling frame to that joke, too: ABC is owned by Disney, which is seeking to buy Fox, a merger that could be scuttled by Trump, who has a habit of threatening media corporations that cross him. And Trump has opinions about "black-ish." When the series débuted, in 2014, he tweeted, "How is ABC Television allowed to have a show entitled 'Blackish'? Can you imagine the furor of a show, 'Whiteish'! Racism at highest level?" The month before "Roseanne" premièred, ABC pulled an episode of "black-ish": in it, Dre Johnson tells his baby son a bedtime story about race in America. Buh-leeve me, no punch line appears on ABC without getting O.K.'d all the way to the top.

Of course, Roseanne Conner didn't make the crude joke that Trump made—so far, at least, the show doesn't traffic in any heavy clash of perspectives, as in Lear's shows from the seventies, in which Maude Findlay and George Jefferson held their own against Archie Bunker. No one on "Roseanne" has used the word "racist," let alone lobbed a slur; instead, the show relies on code, such as when Roseanne snarks that Jackie might want to "take a knee," even as her black granddaughter, Mary (Jayden Ray), sits nearby, an irony no one remarks on. The missing jokes are the show's "tell": when Jackie fights Roseanne, she takes no real shots at Trump, narrowing the debate to jobs and Hillary, as if the two of them were guests on Hannity. The show's repeated theme is always that Roseanne is not that kind of Trump voter: she's sweet to Mary; she defends Mark against homophobic bullies. You might see this as complexity or as spin. If you're in a darker mood, you might call it propaganda.

So, instead of a straight shot, Roseanne and Dan take a sideways jab at their ABC slot-mates: they're old news. They're everywhere—an irritant, a snooze. But Dan couldn't be referring to any other network sitcoms about black and Asian families, because none exist. That's true even on ABC, which just a few years ago was branding itself "the diversity network," sparked by the success of Shonda Rhimes. (And, maybe, by the presence of President Obama.) "Black-ish" is the first black network family sitcom since 2006, when "The Bernie Mac Show" ended its run on Fox. "Fresh Off the Boat" is the first Asian-family show in history, not counting "All-American Girl," in 1994, which ended after one season. They're fragile phenomena. After the success of Lear and then of Bill Cosby, there were brief, exciting vogues for "ethnic comedy." But, year by year, those shows got gentrified off the comedy block, from NBC to Fox to the WB, UPN, BET. That's how change often works in mass culture: in waves that recede.

The other thing Roseanne doesn't mention is that there are two other ABC sitcoms about families "just like them": "The Middle" (which also airs on Tuesday) and "Speechless." Both shows, like "Roseanne," portray white lower-middle-class couples, weighed down by credit-card debt and living with disabled family members in messy homes they can't afford to fix. "The Middle" is currently limping toward its series finale, but it spent eight seasons delivering a smart, salty portrait of blue-collar life in Indiana. Roseanne and Dan aren't watching "The Middle," however. They don't make a meta-joke about how it was created by two writers who worked on the original "Roseanne." "The Middle" can't exist if "Roseanne" wants to strike that primal chord of white resentment: that more (or any!) black or brown faces mean less room for white people. This useful amnesia is also what enabled ABC to use the slogan "A Family That Looks Like Us" when selling "Roseanne" to advertisers, a dog whistle so strong that it might have brought Lassie back from the dead.
Emily Nussbaum on point. Roseanne isn't about bridging a divide. It's about taking pots shots at things they don't like or agree with and going "lol jokes!". There's more at the link above.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,677
im so sick of hearing about this show and that Nazi shit woman.

its nuts that a few decades ago she was considered somewhat progressive.
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,891
It does seem like a portion of the jokes are side-jabs at things even when the showrunners are trying to say that the Connors are just a moderate family with Trump leanings.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
Instead, Roseanne's cackling drowns these stories out—that's what star power is. In the third episode, Darlene's daughter, Harris (Emma Kenney), hogs the dryer. She has her reasons, we learn: she is so desperate to go back to Chicago that she's dealing shoplifted clothing. But we're encouraged to see her through her grandmother's eyes, as a spoiled urban brat. When Roseanne calls Harris "an entitled little bitch," Harris calls her "a stupid old hillbilly." Then Roseanne tricks her granddaughter into cleaning a plate, and, when she does, Roseanne shoves Harris's head into the sink, hard, then sprays her, saying, "Welcome to the hillbilly day spa."

LMAO CHILD ABUSE IS FUNNY
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
im so sick of hearing about this show and that Nazi shit woman.

its nuts that a few decades ago she was considered somewhat progressive.

I don't think she was, and was always pretty much known as a shitty person It was just the show and it's writers that were semi-progressive (for the target audience anyway) and that still seems to be the case from the little I've read (I don't watch it).

It's not progressive at all by our leftist standards, but back in the day it did an ok job with things like teenage pregnancy and what not packaged in a way that was more digestible to conservative, rural Americans. It would be nice if the new show could do similar things with gender identity etc. despite how awful a person the lead actress is.

It's not going to appeal to us progressives, but some closer to center type presentations have more chance of influencing conservative rural folk that us "coastal elites" shouting them down and expecting overnight change from hate to acceptance. Just getting certain things normalized and eventually to the point of tolerance is an important step on the way to more accepting society. To many today can't see such things as things are so tribalist and us vs. them.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,265
The thing no one mentions when talking about The Middle or Speechless is that they pay lipservice to being lower middle class without actually being poor in any meaningful way. Speechless is about "fighting the insurance company" and The Middle's parents had to "pay for college", but these are just abstract ideas that are just in the background to allow the kids to do their generic ABC Family Goldbergs-esque stories.

And while I think Black-ish is actually different in that it embraces the fact that it's a show about a Black family, FoB is decidedly generic and, well, like any other ABC show where difference is highlighted but also largely ignored.
 

LionPride

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,804
The thing no one mentions when talking about The Middle or Speechless is that they pay lipservice to being lower middle class without actually being poor in any meaningful way. Speechless is about "fighting the insurance company" and The Middle's parents had to "pay for college", but these are just abstract ideas that are just in the background to allow the kids to do their generic ABC Family Goldbergs-esque stories.

And while I think Black-ish is actually different in that it embraces the fact that it's a show about a Black family, FoB is decidedly generic and, well, like any other ABC show where difference is highlighted but also largely ignored.
Nah I related to the family on the middle in terms of growing up poor, a lot of those episodes are shit I've had ti go through, at least before Sue got to college.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
Rebrand as deplorable TV. I can't believe they shopped it with "a family that looks like us."

Lol. My choice not to watch, despite liking the original, was a good one. The show will never do anything to challenge trump, or the type of shittiness roseanne the person embodies. Instead it will serve as propaganda to normalize truly disgusting views.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,664
Well, the show certainly isn't hiding it anymore. The article nailed it. I was never much of a fan of the show in the 80s/90s (let alone Roseanne herself) but based on what I know of the original series Roseanne's character while super abrasive and obnoxious certainly wasn't racist or mean spirited to the point of blatantly dumping on other cultures. There was even an episode where DJ is supposed to kiss a black girl in a school play and doesn't want to. If I remember correctly Roseanne is outraged at DJ and blows up at him saying something like "We didn't raise you to be some stupid redneck!!" Then Roseanne and Dan spend time seriously reflecting and basically asking each other "Wait a minute, did WE ever say or do anything in front of DJ that may have influenced him to react that way?" It was super thoughtful and well written, so to see how the characters are now is not only straight up offensive but also bizarre and unsettling to say the least.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,265
Nah I related to the family on the middle in terms of growing up poor, a lot of those episodes are shit I've had ti go through, at least before Sue got to college.
They're poor but they make college work anyway, through amorphous "loans" which are just easy to get and no one thinks about. That's fine I suppose.

But the one thing about episode 3 that isn't in the OP at least (I don't read Nussbaum generally) is that the entire plot of the third episode is the grand-daughter being ashamed of being poor, which is definitely something I can identify with. Particularly the part where she hates her family for being "failures" and not being able to be as successful as her peers' parents.

I just realized, even on The Middle, they're not considered the "poor family". That's the Glassners, who are basically the Connors. :p
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I was a big fan of the show back in the day but I have no intention of supporting this vulgar woman.

Also, the pilot was terrible so unless the show rebounded quickly, I don't get the critical praise.
 

CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,247
I love when fucking idiots like Roseanne think that recognizing similarities between different colored people in the same socioeconomic bracket magically absolves them of any and all racism.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
Context matters my man.

Fam, it's Klean. You think he's gonna listen to you? Dude's gonna keep on Trumpin' along till the end of time.

Even worse when they made a big deal about this in the original show. In the show, her character and her sister were beaten by their father. There was also an episode where she freaks out after spanking her son in a fit of rage.

Yeesh, that level of cognitive dissonance is kinda shocking. I'm not too familiar with the original show since it was a bit before my time, but it's weird seeing examples of how relatively progressive it was, and how regressive this new show is.
 

Kibbles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,418
DirecTV was acting up yesterday on ABC (and CBS) but my dad immediately was like oh it's the liberals trying to block Roseanne. -_-
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,905
Yeah, as someone who absolutely loved the original Roseanne, and considers it one of my all-time favorite shows, it's been really odd reconciling that while watching this version. Beyond Roseanne as a person, the writing here seems to veer drastically between flashes of the old show, and these weird political undertones that are so intrusive they sacrifice the characters altogether (Roseanne's sudden belief in corporal punishment sticks out).
 

Klean

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
641
Context matters my man.

Yeah, like the context of how the Roseanne and Dan viewed show. It isn't a flattering portrayal of a smart married couple that are always right. They're a loud, brash, crude married couple from another generation that more often than not called out for being wrong and out of touch. I guess we were supposed to think that the guy that gave his grandson a knife to take to school to defend himself was supposed to have a measured view of black and Asian sitcoms?

It's ridiculous that this show's revival is largely due to a progressive female comedian (Cummings) and a lesbian (Gilbert) who serve as executive producers but this place tries to paint it as an outlet for Roseanne's nazi views.
 

ChanceOwen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
487
Yeesh, that level of cognitive dissonance is kinda shocking. I'm not too familiar with the original show since it was a bit before my time, but it's weird seeing examples of how relatively progressive it was, and how regressive this new show is.
The show isn't at all regressive and is entirely progressive. All the progressive moments in the show are left out of these articles, so don't expect that the articles are giving non-viewers an accurate sense of what the show is.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,668
Germany
When I was a kid like 20 years ago, Roseanne was actually one of the favorite shows of my family in Germany.
Obviously it was in the German dub so things weren't exactly like in the original, but still we all enjoyed it and thought it was funny.
It has actually broken our collective heart to later find out just how horrible Roseanne Barr actually is. It's like an entire part of our family life that we enjoyed has been absolutely tainted.
 
OP
OP
UnpopularBlargh
Oct 26, 2017
8,207
They're poor but they make college work anyway, through amorphous "loans" which are just easy to get and no one thinks about. That's fine I suppose.

But the one thing about episode 3 that isn't in the OP at least (I don't read Nussbaum generally) is that the entire plot of the third episode is the grand-daughter being ashamed of being poor, which is definitely something I can identify with. Particularly the part where she hates her family for being "failures" and not being able to be as successful as her peers' parents.

I just realized, even on The Middle, they're not considered the "poor family". That's the Glassners, who are basically the Connors. :p
It's not like Roseanne is any better wrt to the topics it deals with. At most it's surface level "we're all the same" rehtoric without any of the nuance while still taking pot shots at others. Not to mention Black-ish did more to humanize a Trump supporter in the post-election episode than Roseanne has this new season (imo).
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I have no intention of watching this shit but from all i've read it's pretty much MAGA: The Show.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
I'm kind of surprised that John Goodman is either desperate enough to participate in this trainwreck or unbothered enough to let it all slide.
 

ChanceOwen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
487
Oh look the guy who constantly makes disingenuous arguments in defense of Trump is now making a disingenuous argument in defense of a show that promotes bad behavior.
It doesn't promote bad behavior. Every episode, Roseanne is challenged and criticized for becoming a crotchety old lady, and the messages end up being very progressive. You gotta show her being a bit behind the times in order to have the moments where she learns to be more understanding, though.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
The show isn't at all regressive and is entirely progressive. All the progressive moments in the show are left out of these articles, so don't expect that the articles are giving non-viewers an accurate sense of what the show is.

So you're saying that this is a conspiracy by the liberal media to keep Roseanne down? I knew it!
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Damn. I did a pretty good job staying out of the loop.

I thought Rosanne was strictly a Netflix project. This airing on ABC is problematic considering this article confirms my suspicions on why I shouldn't bother watching it.
 
Dec 2, 2017
20,686
The thing no one mentions when talking about The Middle or Speechless is that they pay lipservice to being lower middle class without actually being poor in any meaningful way. Speechless is about "fighting the insurance company" and The Middle's parents had to "pay for college", but these are just abstract ideas that are just in the background to allow the kids to do their generic ABC Family Goldbergs-esque stories.

And while I think Black-ish is actually different in that it embraces the fact that it's a show about a Black family, FoB is decidedly generic and, well, like any other ABC show where difference is highlighted but also largely ignored.
Huh? The Middle consistently go on about being poor and how strained their finances are. It's integral to a large number of episodes and storylines and jokes.


- Axl's football scholarship meant they avoided paying for college for him
- You mentioned Sue getting financial aid to get help with college expenses
- The beginning of season six involves the parents working 4 jobs to help raise college funds for Sue.
- Frankie buying 200 dollar make up that sends them into a financial spiral that also involves 4 jobs.
- Sue's Halloween movie show is for college funds.
- They went without a sink for multiple episodes and in the end got one from Mike's dad for free and they installed it themselves.
- Multiple episodes about them needing Black Friday to pay for Christmas gifts otherwise it would be unviable
- Fire damaged iPad
- The family finances spiralling when Frankie is between jobs in S4.
- Church van B-plot when their car windshield gets smashed in.


I could go on.
 
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TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
It does, and articles like these pick and choose lines they want to parade without context. There is so much else going on in the show that doesn't getting included in these articles because they don't support the narrative being crafted.

Can you elaborate? I'm not being snarky or trying to bait you into anything, but I don't watch the show and I'm curious.