The Next DEATH BATTLE Is Link vs Cloud 2021 (Legend of Zelda vs Final Fantasy)
- Thread starter TheGamingNewsGuy
- Start date
There are two problems with this argument.
First, there is no real in-game evidence that the power of the FFXII Espers are any stronger than the summons from other games. They... don't do much, and frankly they are not all that amazing in terms of either the fights against them or the powers they use when you summon them. Further, they don't directly and dramatically boost the power of the protagonists in either a gameplay or story sense to anywhere near the same degree that Guardian Forces or Magicite do. At no point are the FFXII protagonists ever really portrayed as the world-changing heroes that other FF protagonists often are.
The other issue is that other summons often are portrayed as rather high level beings. FFVI Espers have world-destroying power and are second only to the Magi in terms of power in that world. Hell, the Magi of the Warring Triad themselves can give your characters power via the Crusader magicite. FFIV Bahamut is the God of Summoned Monsters, and is pretty much the only named deity in that game, and Cecil is literally divinely blessed to become a Paladin.
There isn't a lot of reason to say the FFXII characters are strong or special in any way.
As much as I hate your reason this is more than likely the truth.
Honestly I can see either winning, which is why DB should drop the scripted, deterministic approach and consider branching scenarios.
Instead of relying on asspull feats and perfect scenarios ending in one move after its gone on long enough for a video they could at least have more fun with it.
Instead of relying on asspull feats and perfect scenarios ending in one move after its gone on long enough for a video they could at least have more fun with it.
Last edited:
I mean Deathbattle as a premise is literally just that bought to life. Lol.
There is, because lore exists. It's explained who created the Espers, why they were bound by the occuria, and what their role was in the operation of Ivalice. You can debate "lore vs. gameplay" all day, but it's pretty clear that the FFXII espers occupied a role that was more significant to the world than say, FFVI or VII where they were just powerful monsters with no actual role to play in the operation of the world.
As much as people bag on the usefulness of Espers in FFXII, they are far and away more useful in battle than anything in VI-IX, and the damage limit being drastically higher in XII vs. everything prior means that Zodiark hitting for 50,000 points of damage means they are hitting a lot harder. Unfortunately the standard weapons and magic the cast has access to in FFXII are so overpowered that the typical player won't actually need to use them to finish the game.
Note that the changes made to espers in FFXII: TZA make them WAY stronger than they were in FFXII vanilla. Not only is the max summon time damn near tripled but they are directly controllable, including their gambits and limit breaks. Nothing in the previous games (other than MAYBE X) can touch them.
The espers are bound to the player and attack alongside them- they are in that sense substantially more powerful or useful than a GF or magicite and it's not close. Hell, a TON of the FFVI espers were killed by Kefka who had no particularly strong strength or skills at the time. They were scrub tier and that's being generous. You're not putting those up next to the FFXII espers which as far as anyone knows are unkillable. They can be bound and imprisoned but not wiped out.
That's because the point of FFXII isn't "change the world" and that's not what the narrative is going for.
Laughable. This is the description of Zodiark:
So powerful the gods (the occuria) fear him and restrict his growth to childhood. He alone fashions the laws governing all things, and administers punishment in place of the gods. There is no summoned entity in any FF game that's placed on THAT high a tier- and even if you wish to dismiss that as "just lore"- Ultima is not only an absurdly powerful summon that sparked a rebellion against the gods that lasted for *centuries*, The Ultima in FFXII is *the exact same entity* that causes a cataclysm that wipes out a number of kingdoms and races after FFXII, and is literally the final boss of FF Tactics.
The FFXII cast not only defeats ultima in combat but binds her to their will. This is in stark contrast to Ajora, Wiegraf, Elmdore, and Dycedarg who obtained Zodiac stones but instead of binding the Espers to their will were *taken over* and used as hosts by the Lucavi.
Last edited:
Cloud wouldn't be able to survive the Zelda games, he can't wield the master sword because it's meant for the goddess' chosen, and the last boss would just get back up, until Cloud loses due to exhaustion and futility. In comparison, Link would survive the events of VII remake, he's proven with the Guardians, that he can deal with mechs and he could handle Shinra. I think Sephiroth would appreciate Link's appearance, and he could use him, as an outside factor, and a weapon against the arbiters of fate. Someone who can rewind and pause time, that's a perfect weapon.
I'm still only on book 4 so I can't debate too much on it. I've heard Rand gets crazy though which I thought might prevent it from being a total stomp in Adol's favor.
Unrelated but I really need to pick up the pace with reading wot. I started in January of last year; but every time I finish a book I take like three months to start the next one. :/
uh...you might want to finish reading Wheel of Time. Rand Al'Thor finishes that series as one of the most stupidly overpowered characters in all of fiction and I do not use that term lightly.
That and the whole Ta'veren concept is kind of bonkers and not exactly compatible with other world/universe logics.
He's from humble beginnings and has killed actual god level threats multiple times. A recent one was a living embodiment of the tree of life. But while he has access to magic and blessings it's almost all pure fighting skill
Also true.
Al'Thor at the end of the WOT was so powerful he could have (theoretically) eliminated the very *concept* of evil from all reality by eliminating the Dark One, but chose not to.
Has Link acquired the Triforce? If yes, he just dusts Cloud, Thanos style. If he hasn't, it's a fair fight between the two of them.
Yeah adol is still human at the end of the day, he doesn't actually have direct god level power. just raw fighting skill and blessings now and then to kill gods
Kefka drains the power of three goddessess. Whereas Kuja absorbs all the souls taken from the war of the three kingdoms, stored in the Invincible, and becomes Trance Kuja, he destroys a planet, Terra, and has the power to destroy all of existence, and he targets the origin of the universe, the Crystal. He performs a suicide attack in the end, and uses presumably the most version of Ultima, to take out the heroes, an attack he could try on Kekfa. I think it's too difficult to quantify their powers, I guess Kuja will try a suicide attack and take them both out.. if Kefka's multi-forms becomes too much.
Rand Al'Thor as early as book 5 learns an attack that will literally wipe from existence anything it hits, and remove said thing *and any action it had ever taken* from the pattern of reality going back anywhere from minutes to hours. It's such a nasty attack that even the Dark One can't resurrect something hit by it and it is impossible to block.
Rand continues to power himself up to even more absurd extremes over the *9 additional books* that make up the Wheel of Time.
Link (Composite)
Link (リンク Rinku), is the main protagonist of the Legend of Zelda series. He is usually depicted as a courageous young boy or teenager in green clothing who leaves his home and any relatives to pursue his destiny: fighting the evil forces threatening the land. Over the course of his adventure...
Wait, how does Cloud beat Composite Link?
Easy on the spoilers there lol. (I don't even know if most jrpg protagonists could beat some of the secondary characters in WoT even, though)
Composite Link is really busted. Chatau Romani plus either magic armor, the magic cape, or Nauru's love is perputual invulnerability. Even leaving aside game mechanic abuse, the Sheikah Slate added to a traditionally equipped Link is going to have some ludicrous defensive and offensive options.
It's a spoiler to let you know how many books comprise a series that began in 1990 and ended eight years ago?
That particular attack isn't even all that notable. It's just banned because using it is wildly irresponsible.
as to the rest of the comment- no, most jrpg protags can't come anywhere close to what goes on in WOT. It's just too far out there.
Yes, a few times.
Link to the Past, Skyward Sword, Link Between Worlds, Zelda II
To be fair, we've never really seen just how omnipotent the Triforce actually is.
For example, Ganon has the full Triforce initially in Link to the Past, but he was still unable to escape the Dark World and is defeated by Link. This might be explained by the Triforce only reaching its true potential in the hands of a balanced person, but even in Skyward Sword when Link proves his aptitude in Power, Wisdom, and Courage, Link's wish to destroy the Imprisoned results in a piece of Skyloft coming down to squish it rather than it just being dusted. On the other hand, in a Link Between Worlds, it literally restores a world about to fall apart on top of recreating its own original Triforce, and in a Link to the Past it restores the Sacred Realm and gives basically everyone a happy ending, including several characters that are brought back from the dead.
Well, the method in Skyward Sword is a little unexpected, but the results were very real. The Imprisoned was absolutely unkillable, reviving over and over and slowly breaking free of every seal placed on it by both gods and mortals. And the Triforce just utterly annihilates it instantly, leaving nothing behind. If it weren't for time travel shenanigans, there wouldn't have even been a final boss fight. The Triforce does not play around. If you have a wish, it will grant the wish.
As for Ganon's wish to rule the cosmos... He did become undisputed ruler of one world and remade it in his image, and had enough power to threaten the Light World, even with the Wise Men interfering. That is no small thing.
As for Ganon's wish to rule the cosmos... He did become undisputed ruler of one world and remade it in his image, and had enough power to threaten the Light World, even with the Wise Men interfering. That is no small thing.
It's a pretty even fight. Cloud has crazy bullshit anime powers and world-shaking summon magic, but Link has a combat roll.
Why would cloud need the master sword when he can do much more than the toughest enemies in Zelda?
Generally only master sword or light arrows can deliver a fatal blow to the villains in a Zelda game, because of the lore and magic rules of the Zelda universe. The goddesses likely wouldn't grant Cloud these powers, thus he wouldn't be able to survive 'the events' of those games as you described it. Eventually Cloud will run out of items/revival earrings and die.
OP
OP
You need the master sword (typically Link) and/or the goddess granted light arrows (Often Zelda, sometimes link) to take out the continual reincarnations of Ganon. This has been a thing since the original game where you couldn't kill Ganon without the special arrows (which is also why the final form of BOTW needs a bow, it's a callback to that).
A magical sword that's good against a specific enemy probably wouldn't be very effective outside of that specific context or against, the absolutely ridiculous things that exist in FF.
Your thinking is the wrong way around. It being a requirement to kill a specific being doesn't make it any less effective against everything else.
A is necessary for B doesn't mean A is only good for B.
Yea but I can't imagine Link ever surviving the events of a FF game. Just fighting robots killed the strongest version of him in BOTW lmao.
It's important to remember that Link isn't able to kill Ganon because he's stronger than him, he's usually not, as Ganon is often equivalent to a Demigod, and for that matter Demise is essentially a full on god of evil. Link is just equipped and usually divinely blessed in such a manner to be a hard counter to Ganon, like Ganon kryptonite. I do not think Cloud could beat Ganon, and I also do not believe Link could beat Sephiroth, since both require very specific plot related factors outside of the power of the heroes themselves.
Link literally got in to direct sword clashes with Ganondorf in the final battle of Twilight princess and beats him in a direct measure of strength. Can't be much more straightforward than that.
That's the difference between Link and Ganondorf: When Link approaches the triforce, he can touch it and immediately get a wish because he has all three qualities (Power, Wisdom, Courage) in large measure where Ganondorf only cares for power. If Link only had courage, it would split like it did for Ganondorf in any of the games where Link is the first to approach it.
I have to imagine if they're allowing Composite Link again, they'll have to do the same with Cloud and integrate his feats from Base, FF7R, Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia.
True, but there's a few extenuating factors in that particular fight. He's still very much bearing the wounds of his impailment with the Sage's Sword, and by the time you actually do cross blades with him, he's been blasted repeatedly with Zelda's holy magic, had his magical wound savaged by Wolf Link, had some form of offscreen fight with powered up Midna, been shot with several light arrows by Zelda and taken slashes from Link in the horse chase, and even if it's never explicitly stated, Link still brings the Triforce of Courage into his fight. It's pretty nebulous what the Triforce of Courage actually does, but one consistent property is that it appears to provide some magical protection to Link from evil power (turning into a wolf instead of a spirit in this game for example). I've always interpreted it not so much as giving Link courage, which he should already have in spades if he's worthy to hold it to begin with, but to always give him the chance to fight so long as his courage holds.
I don't think that's what's happening in Advent Children. Its just anime nonsense limit breaks with no real explanation. Most of the time he's really not moving super fast. Moving so fast you create an image isn't actually a thing, unless you believe every Pokemon is also doing that. However, I do believe Link has had a bunch of time manipulation and insta kill weapons of various kinds (and you fight enemies that "move so fast they disappear" in the games more than once)
Zelda 1 Link and to an extent BotW Link can stop time in some capacity.