The President of Mexico demands Spain and the Vatican to apologise for their treatment of indigenous peoples during the Conquest

Regulus Tera · Mar 25, 2019

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/25/mexico-demands-spain-apology-colonialism-obrador

"I have sent a letter to the king of Spain and another to the pope calling for a full account of the abuses and urging them to apologize to the indigenous peoples (of Mexico) for the violations of what we now call their human rights," Lopez Obrador, 65, said in the video, which he posted to his social media accounts.

"There were massacres and oppression. The so-called conquest was waged with the sword and the cross. They built their churches on top of the (indigenous) temples," he said.

"The time has come to reconcile. But let us ask forgiveness first."

Mexico's President, Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO), is known for being a populist, and this remark comes at a time when he's travelling across cities that correspond to some important battles during the Conquest era. Political reasons aside, are apologies so many centuries later appropriate or not?

Edit: could a mod fix the title? Should read "their", not "its".

Edit2: thanks!

Azuran · Mar 25, 2019

Should demand the USA to apologize for all of their bullshit throughtout Latin America while he's at it.

Taka · Mar 25, 2019

Doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

Regulus Tera · Mar 25, 2019

Azuran said:
Should demand the USA to apologize for all of their bullshit throughtout Latin America while he's at it.

(The difference being that the US has the military and political clout to oust him, while Spain can barely keep Catalonia and the Basque Country quiet for all of five minutes.)

Stinkles · Mar 25, 2019

Dude are you mad? What if they send an armada?

Hasn't the Vatican actually apologized for some of that?

Operations · Mar 25, 2019

Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

bangai-o · Mar 25, 2019

Is he going to send that letter to Moctezuma as well? Mexico was at war with itself long before Spain arrived.

This just seems like he is trying to get votes from rural areas.

El Bombastico · Mar 25, 2019

Is he gonna demand apologies from the descendants of all those native tribes that sided with the Spanish against the Aztecs as well?

Menx64 · Mar 25, 2019

I believe it is fair. But Spain, Portugal, the UK, France, Netherlands and the Church should apologize with our indigenous people only.

Deleted member 2426 · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

He called him stupid wow what an insightful commentary. Bravo.

The colonial powers never apologized for the genocide they created in latinamerica and Africa. Absolutely nothing with this.

But I guess the derechairos siding with royalty is not surprising.

Inugami · Mar 25, 2019

Wouldn't this be similar to if the US demanded England apologize to the Native American tribes....?

ty_hot · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

I love how the articles says 'conquest', in Brazil we always refer to the Portuguese arrival as "the discovery of Brazil".

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

What a weird flex. I mean its fair I guess but what will this achieve? It is just a political trap for Spain. Plus, he says he sent the letter to the king. Does even have the power to apologize? His PM flat out said no, and he is a socialist!

KojiKnight said:
Wouldn't this be similar to if the US demanded England apologize to the Native American tribes....?

Yes.

Regulus Tera · Mar 25, 2019

KojiKnight said:
Wouldn't this be similar to if the US demanded England apologize to the Native American tribes....?

The difference here is that much of the genocide occurred during the expansion of the American territory westward, well after the American Revolution.

Then again, Mexico does have similar skeletons in their closet regarding the Yaqui tribes.

Joeytj · Mar 25, 2019

Melkr_ said:
He called him stupid wow what an insightful commentary. Bravo.

The colonial powers never apologized for the genocide they created in latinamerica and Africa. Absolutely nothing with this.

But I guess the derechairos siding with royalty is not surprising.

They have, actually. At least to some degree. In the early 2000s, the EU apologized to Africa for slavery and colonization. France specifically apologized as well recently. The UK allowing so many of its former "subjects" UK citizenship is also a way of historical reparations.

It's not an unprecedented request. It's a complicated and divisive issue, but not unprecedented.

Even more embarrassing today are the amount of Mexicans kowtowing to Spain and the king. I don't think even Spaniards themselves are worried that much about what the King thinks.

Iva Demilcol · Mar 25, 2019

Menx64 said:
I believe it is fair. But Spain, Portugal, the UK, France, Netherlands and the Church should apologize with our indigenous people only.

Not only that, we Mexicans should apologize as well: we have marginalized some communities systematically for generations.

One of the most common insults that we Mexicans use is telling a person they are part of one of those ethnic groups.

Stephen Home · Mar 25, 2019

Maybe not vatican but definitely Spain.

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

Iva Demilcol said:
Not only that, we Mexicans should apologize as well: we have marginalized some communities systematically for generations.

One of the most common insults that we Mexicans use is telling a person they are part of one of those ethnic groups.

People were spewing some real nasty stuff with Yalitza Aparicio, sheesh.

Weltall Zero · Mar 25, 2019

As a Spaniard myself, this doesn't seem like a farfetched request at all. Kind of weird to ask it of our king, considering he's an entirely symbolic figurehead.

Stephen Home said:
Maybe not vatican but definitely Spain.

Catholicism was both motivation and justification for a lot of what Spain did over there; asking the Vatican seems reasonable enough.

King Dodongo · Mar 25, 2019

El peje es un pejendejo.

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

Stephen Home said:
Maybe not vatican but definitely Spain.

We literally had a war to remove the Catholic Church from power positions in the government.

Slayven · Mar 25, 2019

bangai-o said:
Is he going to send that letter to Moctezuma as well? Mexico was at war with itself long before Spain arrived.

This just seems like he is trying to get votes from rural areas.

What does this has to do with the point? This is like saying "What about about black on black crime?" when history is discussed

Weltall Zero said:
As a Spaniard myself, this doesn't seem like a farfetched request at all. Kind of weird to ask it of our king, considering he's an entirely symbolic figurehead.

Catholicism was both motivation and justification for a lot of what Spain did over there; asking the Vatican seems reasonable enough.

God, Glory, and Gold

Usually the same damn thing

Deleted member 18966 · Mar 25, 2019

don't see the issue with this

bangai-o · Mar 25, 2019

Slayven said:
What does this has to do with the point? This is like saying "What about about black on black crime?" when history is discussed

The point is the President of Mexico only gives a shit about rural Mexico in the same way Trump gives a shit about rural America.

CrocoDuck · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

What an idiotic way to attack AMLO here.

I have a Spanish last name and I speak Spanish and I look Indio, as do many Mexicans.

We got this because of the Spaniards.

Pwnz · Mar 25, 2019

The Spanish Empire was ruthlessly awful. First disease in a sense not their explicit fault would wipe out the majority of the population, then they'd lie, cheat, and enslave the rest. They would often explicitly destroy vast amounts of native culture, which were much bigger than what most people realize today. The Incan Empire for example was nearly the size and a third population of Ancient Rome at its peak. If it weren't for the disease, new Spain never would have been a thing.

Masoyama · Mar 25, 2019

I am latino and I have a different view of the matter. The whole human experience is one of conquest and exploitation. Do the Spanish need to receive forgiveness from the Italians or Tunisians due to invasion of Hispania by Carthage and Rome? Should the Mexicans apologize to my people because the Aztecs were a colonizing culture? I mean, if we are being strict about it the conquest of the Americas happened during the Castilian and Hapsburg dynasties Spain, expanded during the years of the Bourbons and the Latin American Wars of Independence happened during the French invasion of Spain. Who are we asking to give forgiveness?

Deleted member 24907 · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

It's AMLO's fault that he has those last names? What a terrible criticism lol

Deleted member 18966 · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

put it best? what is he even trying to say? that AMLO is spanish due to his last name and should apologize or that indigenous people should be thankful about the conquest because we became more spanish/civilized, either take seems rather stupid

Lant_War · Mar 25, 2019

Melkr_ said:
He called him stupid wow what an insightful commentary. Bravo.

The colonial powers never apologized for the genocide they created in latinamerica and Africa. Absolutely nothing with this.

But I guess the derechairos siding with royalty is not surprising.

Not only that, every year it gets celebrated.

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

Ariashadow said:
put it best? what is he even trying to say? that AMLO is spanish due to his last name and should apologize or that indigenous people should be thankful about the conquest because we became more spanish/civilized, either take seems rather stupid

Yeah, that tweet is bad quality shitposting.

Brazil · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
Arturo Perez Reverte put it best:

I'm sure there are better tweets out there my dude

God forbid someone daring to speak up against colonialism. We all agree it's bad, but I guess actually pointing fingers at those who are guilty of it is going too far.

This is no more than theatrics, but so is King Filipe's entire existence.

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

Brazil said:
I'm sure there are better tweets out there my dude

God forbid someone daring to speak up against colonialism. We all agree it's bad, but I guess actually pointing fingers at those who are guilty of it is going too far.

This is no more than theatrics, but so is King Filipe's entire existence.

Well, Mexican Twitter isnt having it lol. #AMLONoMeRepresenta and #DisculpasRidiculas are trending.

This is one of the things that one could say well yeah, sure why not, apologize. But I think Spain is in no position to apologize or make any kind of concessions given their current political status.

But then again, fuck monarchies.

Deleted member 43 · Mar 25, 2019

Regulus Tera said:
The difference here is that much of the genocide occurred during the expansion of the American territory westward, well after the American Revolution.

Then again, Mexico does have similar skeletons in their closet regarding the Yaqui tribes.

Well, no. The vast majority of the native population of the Western Hemisphere were killed off before the United States was founded.

Edit: Read "much" as "most," my bad.

Ninman · Mar 25, 2019

As a Mexican I don't need apologies from Spaniards, I need policies that start to eradicate classism within the country. As the OP said AMLO is a populist we need action not hollow speeches.

Deleted member 18966 · Mar 25, 2019

Ninman said:
As a Mexican I don't need apologies from Spaniards, I need policies that start to eradicate classism within the country. As the OP said AMLO is a populist we need action not hollow speeches.

does it have to be either or? a big reason indigenous people are still marginalized is because the ideas of them being inferior savages were instilled during the conquest, to demand an apology would serve to openly denounce such views

Deleted member 197 · Mar 25, 2019

NarohDethan said:
We literally had a war to remove the Catholic Church from power positions in the government.

Are you Mexican? If yes, did you drop out from middle school or something?

Operations · Mar 25, 2019

Brazil said:
I'm sure there are better tweets out there my dude

God forbid someone daring to speak up against colonialism. We all agree it's bad, but I guess actually pointing fingers at those who are guilty of it is going too far.

This is no more than theatrics, but so is King Filipe's entire existence.

The way I read the writer's tweet is that AMLO is in no position to demand anything: he's tacitly pointing out that AMLO himself is the byproduct of 500 years of mestizaje and thus not in a position to represent or feel aggravated by the crimes he's pointing out in his letter.

A more extreme, non-perfect example would be Elizabeth Warren demanding an apology from the Queen of England for the atrocities comitted against Native Americans during Colonization.

Eila · Mar 25, 2019

I doubt it's something he cares much about. Think it's being pushed by some close aides, I believe his wife among them.
I don't think he had previously even intervened with another country before today. Instead arguing for nationalism.

Iva Demilcol · Mar 25, 2019

Let's just end this with a history lesson:

A rough translation for those who don't speak Spanish:

Spain recognized the independence of Mexico in 1836. The respective treaty said: "There will be forgetfulness of the past and complete amnesty to all Mexicans and Spaniards that could be exiled, absent or in hiding without exceptions."

Mexico declared its independence from Spain in September of 1821.

bangai-o · Mar 25, 2019

Ariashadow said:
does it have to be either or? a big reason indigenous people are still marginalized is because the ideas of them being inferior savages were instilled during the conquest, to demand an apology would serve to openly denounce such views

The Aztecs had already marginalized the surrounding tribes. Marginalization didn't just arrive with the Spaniards.

Eila · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
The way I read the writer's tweet is that AMLO is in no position to demand anything: he's tacitly pointing out that AMLO himself is the byproduct of 500 years of mestizaje and thus not in a position to represent or feel aggravated by the crimes he's pointing out in his letter.

A more extreme, non-perfect example would be Elizabeth Warren demanding an apology from the Queen of England for the atrocities comitted against Native Americans during Colonization.

Eh, you can call out bullshit even if you are not the most affected. He is the president over all the indigenous Mexicans and he had repeatedly mentioned they're one of his main focus.

Deleted member 721 · Mar 25, 2019

i think its reasonable, the catholic church apologised recently about the Inquistion, so why not that?

Ninman · Mar 25, 2019

Ariashadow said:
does it have to be either or? a big reason indigenous people are still marginalized is because the ideas of them being inferior savages were instilled during the conquest, to demand an apology would serve to openly denounce such views

What does he want to achieve with such demands, other that news headlines? We gain nothing, instead we're here debating if that's reasonable request meanwhile dividing the country (see Twitter).

Brazil · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
The way I read the writer's tweet is that AMLO is in no position to demand anything: he's tacitly pointing out that AMLO himself is the byproduct of 500 years of mestizaje and thus not in a position to represent or feel aggravated by the crimes he's pointing out in his letter.

A more extreme, non-perfect example would be Elizabeth Warren demanding an apology from the Queen of England for the atrocities comitted against Native Americans during Colonization.

Elizabeth Warren would be in a position to do just that if she was a head of State. AMLO represents all Mexicans - not just his own bloodline.

Baccus · Mar 25, 2019

Good. As a Latino, thank you AMLO. They robbed us of a future. A good future.

Deleted member 18966 · Mar 25, 2019

Operations said:
The way I read the writer's tweet is that AMLO is in no position to demand anything: he's tacitly pointing out that AMLO himself is the byproduct of 500 years of mestizaje and thus not in a position to represent or feel aggravated by the crimes he's pointing out in his letter.

A more extreme, non-perfect example would be Elizabeth Warren demanding an apology from the Queen of England for the atrocities comitted against Native Americans during Colonization.

AMLO being a byproduct of 500 years of mestizaje is why he is in a position to speak about the topic, and if that wasn't enough then being the president of Mexico should be enough.

bangai-o said:
The Aztecs had already marginalized the surrounding tribes. Marginalization didn't just arrive with the Spaniards.

but the brand of marginalization the spanish brought against all "indios" is what stuck and is still present

Ninman said:
What does he want to achieve with such demands, other that news headlines? We gain nothing, instead we're here debating if that's reasonable request meanwhile dividing the country (see Twitter).

gain nothing? legislation alone won't eliminate discrimination, same way removing jim crow laws didn't end racism. you have to tackle the issue from all sides

TheKeipatzy · Mar 25, 2019

Regulus Tera said:
Then again, Mexico does have similar skeletons in their closet regarding the Yaqui tribes.

1930s... They were still bombing villages in Sonora. Think that's when my Great Uncle left for the US side, though Arizona is it's own bag of crazy...

Deleted member 10629 · Mar 25, 2019

maluma baby! said:
Are you Mexican? If yes, did you drop out from middle school or something?

Yes I'm Mexican and no I didnt?

hateradio · Mar 25, 2019

This sounds like a completely unnecessary thing to do. I assume it's purely symbolic and doesn't do anything but please whoever it's going to please.

The President of Mexico demands Spain and the Vatican to apologise for their treatment of indigenous peoples during the Conquest

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