The religious indoctrination of our children: Where do you stand?
- Thread starter SolidChamp
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Buddhism was not a challenge to the status quo unlike Islam. The persecution against Islam and the straight out war from pagans arabs against muslims was tied to the commerce of idols and the will to maintain the social structure. As far as i know, Buddhism was not subversive for the economical/social order during the life of the Buddha. It's like the meccan period of Islam, before the persecution. Islam by that time was a contemplative pacifist religion. It's only because of the exile and then the will to exterminate the muslims that bring the need to defend oneself and establishate statehood.
You can read this wiki entry about buddhism violence (from the very begenning, the first indian king to adopt buddhism) to see as much violence and religious hatred in the history of bouddhism as in any other religion history. Religion is very useful identitarian tool for the rulers, exactly as political ideology in the 20th century. Violence is not tied to the religious doctrine but to the ambition of the political leaders.
I could debate you on whether dismissing the Old Testament is right and how it is in direct contradiction to an all knowing and all powerful God that is morally just to apparently change his mind midway through history and rework... And then still come back with something morally unjust. But I feel that would distract and derail from the actual topic, so let us not get into that particular debate here. I will accept that if we dismiss the old testament, not all my statements are correct.
However. What's the excuse for the morally unjust passages out of the new testament? Some examples:
Corinthians 14:34 teaches us that women should not speak in church, as they're not permitted to do so.
Matthew 5:29 teaches us that if you sin the hand -even if it is your dominant hand- executing the sin should be cut off and thrown away.
Matthew 5:34 tells us to never swear an oath, so I hope nobody is teaching their kids to pledge allegiance to the flag.
Matthew 5:32 is good too, for marrying a divorced woman is committing adultery. Similarly Corinthians 7:27 tells you to never seek a wife if you're released from one.
Luke 14:26 is a personal favorite, because it tells you to hate your mother, father, brothers and sisters, or you cannot become a disciple of God.
And to circle back to slavery:
Ephesians 6:5 to 6:8 tells us that Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Timothy 6:1 and 6:2 tell us that all who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
Here's some luckily well intended instructions for the owners of slaves:
Ephesians 6:9 tells the masters: masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Colosssians 4:1 says: Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.
Yet people take this book and teach that it contains all the morality one needs in this world? That it is the (absolute) word of God himself? What God would possibly advocate this at any point? He is supposedly all-knowing, irreproachable, yet he leaves us with such a morally flawed instruction set? If we accept that the Old Testament was wrong, and thus came into being the New Testament to correct these wrongs. Why are all these new wrong passages in it? Are we due another revision? And if we are, or if we dismiss these wrong passages in the current book as "as product of the time," can we really trust anything else the book and the religion is based on is teaching us as the ultimate guide on morality?
Jesus himself repeatedly refers back to claims and stories which are in the previous scripture that now forms the old testament. Dismissing it like this, as one basis of christianity, is insincere. Which is not to say that the new testament is a particularly good source for ethical rules, as Aiii pointed out already.
The romans did not invent christianity though, so whether they used it early on to control people has little to say on the intentions of the inventors of christianity - which of course would need to harken back to the inventors of judaism anyway. Though, admittedly, I do not know the intentions of those religions' inventors, but I acknowledge that there is no strong indication (known to me) that this was the primary motivator. It is undeniable that it is an effective tool for that though.
Would you consider learning a child about wiccan religion, magic systems, how to live as not to upset the fairies in the garden or your local house santa healthy things to do?
Most agnostics/atheists would consider these things to be at least somewhat weird or potentially damaging. They all believe the same things that a normal religious person do, it's just that they rule out one more belief.
You don't have to debate me on that topic. It is part of the reason I became agnostic.
Corinthians 14:34 I will acknowledge this particular sexist remark. The only thing I will point out is that this is among historians considered a forgery (along with rest of the letter), and is not to be attributed to Paul - who was quite the feminist for his time.
Matthew 5:29 And yet you saw very few Christians cutting of their eyes and hands, did you? It's quite clear that Matthew is using allegory here. Matthew in particular have always been considered the most "Jewish" gospel, and was always trying to be strict about keeping the rules of the Torah (In opposition to Paul)
When it comes to adultery, I honestly don't see how this is so unethical, strictly speaking. There is no passage about stoning your wife or something of the sort, it is trying to convey a very personal statement about keeping the sanctity of marriage.
Luke 14:26 Lets keep this verse in the context of the chapter please. First of all, this is a parable about hearing the call of God. The master called out for the feast but most people were too busy going about their daily lives. When no-one came, he instead invited the poor, malmed, halt and blind. The line about hating your family is a parable about not letting your daily life, and family hinder you when God calls you. A literal interpretation of the verse would obviously run counter to "love your neighbor as yourself". I wouldn't say its a uplifting statement, but it certainly isn't encouraging people to hate their family.
I see no reason to trying to defend these instructions really. They are obviously a product of their time. Lets just not forget that these lines are for slave converts. They speak about trying to approach their injustice with unprecedented love. And Timothy makes it clear that all people should serve their brethren, regardless of master/slave status. Your following quotes are also quite clear about elevating all humans to equal status, regardless of class:
Yes people do. And I don't agree with the sentiment myself. The Bible is filled with contradictions and superstition and is clearly a product by human writers.
The Old Testament God is a ruthless dictator, and is not a God I would wish for myself, which is probably why a huge branch of Christianity in the 2nd century tried to argue that the Jewish God wasn't the God of Jesus.
I'm more talking about the philosophical content attributed to Jesus himself, and what most of Christianity attributed to Jesus. I find them quite valuable for all ages, and should be teached to all children, like you would teach Socrates or Voltaire. Even seen in the context of history, they have done tons of good for people around the world. The sayings I have been quoting are the ones that Christianity usually held closest to the chest.
Love your neighbor as yourself. Turn the other cheek. The one without sin shall throw the first stone.
I am no longer a christian myself, but I still think it was a force for good all things considered. For its time it was a pioneer in things like human rights, feminism and morality. To dismiss all the teachings there would be a huge loss to humanity.
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Not going to be a popular answer here....
I am going to teach them the truth. That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and that he founded the Catholic church to free mankind from sin and give us eternal life. Everything necessary for salvation is found within it. That we are beset by those who teach untruths about God, those who believe in false gods, and those who abjure God and worship their own flesh.
Under my roof the teachings of Christ and his church will obeyed.
I am going to teach them the truth. That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and that he founded the Catholic church to free mankind from sin and give us eternal life. Everything necessary for salvation is found within it. That we are beset by those who teach untruths about God, those who believe in false gods, and those who abjure God and worship their own flesh.
Under my roof the teachings of Christ and his church will obeyed.
I think it's abhorrent. If I ever have children, I'll give them the freedom to find their own faith and beliefs. If they want to believe in a god or higher power, that's fine, but they ain't gonna learn that shit from me. I was very resentful at having the fear of God instilled in me as a child, and that is definitely one of the reasons I became an atheist in my teens.
Is this posting serious? I am very concerned (on top of the strong an unreflective sort of indoctrination outlined in the first paragraph) about the last sentence: Will you punish your child if it denies Jesus as the son of Yahwe?
EDIT: To be clear, I am asking whether you are serious, because I think the last sentence is very over the top and the text includes things that are clearly not even true by a devout catholic's viewpoint - Jesus has not founded the catholic church, the origin of the church is seen in Pentecost, which is attributed to the holy spirit, not Jesus. So if any of the trinity can be identified as the founder of the catholic church, it's the holy spirit, though even then usually it is ascribed to humans, not to parts of the trinity.
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Why would you think it is not serious? It is a completely orthodox Catholic answer.
I would not punish, I would teach. I cannot punish someone for what is in their mind, but I can teach them truth, and insist that they refrain from speaking untruth.
How would you react to your child rejecting your truth while they are still too young to be anywhere but under your roof?
appaws: I have already answered your question in an EDIT to the original posting. I am glad though that you intend to refrain from punishing your children for rejecting a belief system, at the very least, your last sentence read like you would deny your child to live with you past its 18th birthday, should the child not declare that it believes what you believe (or even if it turns out an active atheist). I also hope you would not forbid the child to express its opinion even if it is opposed to yours. However, indoctrination is a very well-working method, so I am positive you will probably not have to worry.
How exactly are you going to force them to "refrain"?
It sounds like you're threatening your children with psychological and/or physical abuse if they don't believe in the same iron age myth that your parents indoctrinated you into.
Totally agree with this. And it's what we're doing with our daughter.
I was raised a Catholic, ditched religion in my teens but am still very much open to it. I'll probably sent my children to a Christian school because it's the better form of education here.
In religion, there's still a touch of humanity. People legitimately care about others, help people in need and do things for each other. I haven't found that in the atheists around me. They generally don't give a rats ass about anything except put the blame of all the problems in the world on others. I know it's anecdotal but so is most of what people say anyway.
Either way, most parents are horrid in general. Male circumcision, guns, moral values, proper diets - there's so much that goes wrong in parenting that teaching your children about religion is a fart in the wind.
In religion, there's still a touch of humanity. People legitimately care about others, help people in need and do things for each other. I haven't found that in the atheists around me. They generally don't give a rats ass about anything except put the blame of all the problems in the world on others. I know it's anecdotal but so is most of what people say anyway.
Either way, most parents are horrid in general. Male circumcision, guns, moral values, proper diets - there's so much that goes wrong in parenting that teaching your children about religion is a fart in the wind.
Not really. Jesus identified Peter as the head of the Church. "Upon this rock..."
We are a Catholic family. We will respect the lord and not speak untruth. My child will be properly catechized.
I will forbid them from expressing falsehoods. I will correct them, not punish them. You can use the pejorative "indoctrination" all you want, but if I have the truth about how to live a good life and spend eternity with God, how could I as a loving parent not teach it to my child?
The same way you might teach your child to refrain from using racial slurs. Do you think that requires "psychological and/or physical abuse?"
Though it is an effective technique, it is not one of guaranteed success, so do not expect too much of your child.
Correcting something is not forbidding. If my child says "2+2=5", I will correct it, as long as I think the child may actually believe it, but if the child wants to say "2+2=5" - believing it or not, I will not say "You are not allowed to say this" - i.e. not forbid it. Maybe we have a different understaning of the word "to forbid".
As I said in a previous posting, reflective religious parents should be aware that their belief is not a proven fact and that this inherent uncertainty should be conveyed to a child properly, even though I can understand why a parent that believes in Yahwe wants their child to do so as well - due to the very nature of the christian scripture.
I would punish my child if it continued to use racial slurs after I explained to the child (and am reasonably sure it could comprehend what I said) why it is hurtful and inacceptable behaviour. If I did the same thing just because my child said it believed in Jesus and Yahwe, then it would be psychological abuse.
My child has never used racial slurs. But if they did I would explain how racism is unfair and illogical.
I would like to think she would not accept my word for it, if I started trying to convince her to believe in a supernatural being for which there is no evidence and which is functionally identical to any of a hundred similar myths.
If your child continues to answer your "refrains" with the sort of logic being presented in this thread, will you relent at any point? What will you be able to say other than, "It's true because I say it's true"?
Stop dodging my question. Nothing you can do can eliminate the possibility.
If your child rejects Catholicism, as many catholic children around me have here in Austria*, what will you do?
*Edit: Just for reference and to understand how fast people are turning away:
Of course this includes deaths, but if I recall correctly, over 20.000 Austrian members are leaving the church every year.
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They will live by Catholic teaching while under my roof. I will try to teach them the truth. Once they reach adulthood and go off, I will hope and pray that I have given them a good foundation to love the lord. But in the end, it is an individual decision, and they will make it for themselves. I recognize that most people reject the love of God and the gift of salvation...the Devil is very powerful. I guess I would be sad but not surprised.
That still doesn't answer my question.
Your 14 year old child stops praying, stops going to church, expresses disbelief in your teachings and maybe denies the existence of God. Maybe they explore their sexuality with other people their age. Maybe a person of the same sex.
I'm not asking how you would feel. I'm asking what you would do.
I'm sure Aquinas, Bellarmine, DeSales, St. Augustine, Ignatius, and Thomas More are shaking in their saintly boots at all the "logic" in this thread.
You're pretending to know the truth and telling your children it's absolute.
They will not stop going to Mass. Mass is required in my family. They will not explore their sexuality outside of marriage with my sanction. I will try to teach and correct them if they do. Everybody makes mistakes and I love them even if they do. And if punishment is necessary, I would do the same sorts of things any parents would do to correct bad behavior. If they are being influenced astray by certain peers, I would stop them from seeing those peers. Just like I imagine you would do if your kid came home saying racist stuff and was being introduced by a friend to racist ideas.
They're not doing anything, they're dead.
I don't mean this as a personal insult, but I find your unwavering certainty and your desire to inflict your viewpoint on your children deeply disturbing.
If someone on the forum wrote out your initial post but used the word "Jedi" instead of God and Jesus would you think they were sane and sensible people, and suitable guardians for their children?
You are deluding yourself if you discount the possibility.
But hey, at least you admit you would keep them from their friends, because you don't have enough faith to trust them to stay on the right path. It's hilarious.
Would you drag them to church? I mean, you probably would.
What will you do when you realize your 15 or 16 year old child was intimate with someone before marriage? How will you undo that one, what punishment is in store for them after this?
So you are in favor of gay marriage then if your child happens to be gay?
You sound like my Catholic parents when I was 13-15, let's just say it did not go well and they just gave up on trying to take me to church, forcing your children to do shit they really don't want to do(or don't believe at all in this case) is not the answer.
I won't take it as an insult. Parents teach their children. My faith is true, and I will teach them that.
Jedi are not real. Christ and his church are the most real things of all.
I understand why those corrupted by our morally relativistic and broken culture find it shocking when anybody holds to eternal truths. I actually feel bad for you...
I stand against all indoctrination and for science and critical thinking. (duh, and for apple pie and mom, etc.) The thread's title is biased however. I sent my children to public school, because I value diversity and the citizenship experience it provided. I am an atheist, but my SO is religious so we agreed that our children would be confirmed in the church.
I valued the ethical discussions that religious exposure gave to my kids, but have always been clear and open about my aethism and rejection of mysticism in all its forms. And, the kids got a very good public education. Thus my kids got a great deal from both worlds and received more opportunities to reflect on their values and ethics than i think most public schools provide.
Frankly, it seems to me that many public schools (and churches) avoid indepth teaching of the tools for engaging in and resolving conflicts over values abd ethics.
I valued the ethical discussions that religious exposure gave to my kids, but have always been clear and open about my aethism and rejection of mysticism in all its forms. And, the kids got a very good public education. Thus my kids got a great deal from both worlds and received more opportunities to reflect on their values and ethics than i think most public schools provide.
Frankly, it seems to me that many public schools (and churches) avoid indepth teaching of the tools for engaging in and resolving conflicts over values abd ethics.
It's sad, but it's also a great example of what we're talking about.
And I pity your children, to the point where I wonder if we should alert the mods. Especially considering your threats to physically drag your children to church against their will.
Jedi are not real and neither are gods or anything supernatural. There is equal evidence for both, i.e. none.
Your unthinking faith is terrifying in this day and age, and it is shocking to me to find someone that can believe such things and yet still speak about them coherently - as if they're the most normal and sensible thing in the world.
I think it should be looked at from an academic perspective, and that goes beyond just learning about Christianity. Cover everything. Ignorance of other faiths can be dangerous.
In his eyes, your parents probably just didn't do it right, they didn't keep away the bad influences, they didn't show you the light and the love, they failed you. He wouldn't do that.
He'll rule with an iron fist [of Catholic Love™], keeping all those negative influences away from his kids.
If they demand more freedom, they are obviously being corrupted, so he'll hold them even closer, shutting out their peers.
Couldn't possibly backfire, right?
Speaking of eternal truths, if you answer my previous post, could you also tell me your thoughts on evolution? Just curious.
Quite possible. Just some little fun thing I just remembered:
I was once approached by a Muslim preacher guy on the streets of Vienna, and the very first thing he did was assure me that they did not, in fact, worship the sun or the moon, and that those are not gods. That their God is, in fact, the creator god. I was like... "Well duh?"
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What makes you so sure that your God, and Jesus, is the true one? How is Christianity not false but others are?
Is it faith that you have in your scripture that says it is? What about the faith others have in other religions? What about your faith is right opposed to other belief systems?
What truly sets your apart, and by truly I mean not as a false belief system? As opposed to Islam? From Hinduism? From Buddhism?
What about all the old world belief systems that were practiced before any contact with Christians like in Europe, or America with Native Americans?
Theirs emerged naturally, just like Christianity emerged naturally out of its historical region, why is Christianity special when so many religions and beliefs in the world emerged over course of humanity prior to Christianity?
Why did all Germanics, Celts, Native Americans, etc practice and develop their own beliefs before contact with Christians? If the Christian God (Trinity) is the True One, where was "it" all that time? Why is the structure of a Church holy and true, but sacred groves/trees that were used by Germanics for nature worship not?
The only reason Christianity exists in Europe is because Christians murdered, fought wars, and invaded more and more north against Germanic tribes, to force conversion or death, policies of genocide were created even during Charlemagne's reign, the systemic destruction of sacred places and churches erected in their place, etc. Native Americans barely got out alive with their belief systems intact (and today still battle the erosion of the cultures and beliefs) which was a result from Europe being converted to Christianity and the colonial and exploration of the New World era that began later after complete conversion. Now it was the rest of the world's turn...
Christianity never developed naturally out of its historical region, it was through force, which is weird when the Trinity is supposed to be omnipotent and True? Seems weird how something that must be so inherent and true never has been? It's almost like nothing about it is any more substantially true than any other religion or old world belief systems.
Christianity and Islam are both very new religions relative to the time span of humanity, do Christians believe God all of a sudden got off his ass and now It Is The One True Religion? Where was Christianity all the time prior?
So much of Christianity and Islam is obsessed with "false gods", it's an insecurity from knowing how many belief systems out there predate it, and no comprehensive answer exists in your scripture to explain it.
I've always found it so arrogant, especially from Abrahamic faiths, to declare what is and isn't false gods.
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I don't say that as someone seeing anyone of faith believing what they do. Just that there's a lack of any acknowledgement that there's the possibility of fault in where their beliefs lie. Telling your child everything I believe about my Catholic upbringing, afforded me by virtue of where I grew up, is the absolute truth, just sets them up for butting heads with scientific truths down the line. Truths that stymie biblical ones. It's a hardship avoided by simply saying, "I don't know" to certain questions in life. Why is that so hard?
It's impossible to bring up children unbiased and you will inadvertently try to push your values onto your kids so I won't fault anyone in doing so.
The failure is in how to react to children that go against them and when they do.
Im atheist and I'd expect my children to be the same not because of their choice bit because I won't go out of my way to give them religious options from an early childhood.
For what it matters, I respect belief but hate basically every religious organization.
The failure is in how to react to children that go against them and when they do.
Im atheist and I'd expect my children to be the same not because of their choice bit because I won't go out of my way to give them religious options from an early childhood.
For what it matters, I respect belief but hate basically every religious organization.
People really like to believe they have the answers for everything, it's kind of the whole thing about religion, people are scared of the uncertain, of what they don't know.
I know some Catholics, and they are a lenient lot when it comes to this stuff. I guess I'm not used to the hardcore crowd. Very fundamentalist.
My wife is catholic, I'm atheist, so there will have to be some compromise. For my part, I will not lie to my children about my lack of belief, and hopefully they can be exposed to both viewpoints and eventually decide on their own what to believe in.
Can't undo stuff. We all sin, that is why we need God. I would teach them exactly that....kids fuck up, just like we all do. It's not the end of the world, that is why we have the sacrament of Confession. Why do you think you are going to somehow "gotcha" me into admitting to be some kind of abusive monster?
LOL. In Latin too, and the girls have to wear a veil. ZOMG!!!!!
I believe in it. Catholics are not required to believe either way on that topic. I find creationism to be ludicrous.
Mannnn .... I went to a religious school as a kid and this was the exact formula for having the worst kids ever. Pick their friends for them ? Good luck .
OT - spirituality is never a bad thing , .but religion and especially churches are political organizations that teach control and power. Everything they teach is right out of the "fear playbook" . And that's the good ones.....bad ones when they are actual con games like the ones that steal money and exploit youth. Like tv guys selling "Mana from heaven"
I'll ask again since you seem to be avoiding the question, if you won't allow sex till marriage and your child is gay do you support gay marriage? How do you handle that situation in your household?
Seriously?!
Are you posting this from the 9th century?
And what country are you in?