Do you have any points of your own to make, or are you just going to parrot what someone else said?
"The Simpsons" hits back at Hari Kondabolu's "The Problem With Apu"
- Thread starter Richiek
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Yeah it'd be real fuckin' wild to live in a world where actual racism is downplayed.
Alright, you have no points of your own to make. No need to engage further.
It's pretty a pretty funny doc man, you should check it out when you have some time
Im pretty sure that was a literal apu quote and not an actual opinion.
Heh. Points awarded.
It's so bizarre that we're in a time where folks are basically saying "can we stop being assholes to minorities," and the response is essentially "why stop now?"
Like the creator of the doc said, even that call and response is some form of progress, but it's insane to me that folks don't get the simple idea of not being dicks.
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I've seen it, and this guy complain about Apu in the past, although I forget what on exactly.
Frankly, he makes some points I agree with and some I don't. He cherry picks points that meet his confirmation bias. He's not wrong for not liking Apu, but at the same time, making claims like the only reason people like Apu is "the voice" is wrong. Are there those people out there? Sure, probably. Are those the only people that like Apu? Nope.
Regardless, The Simpsons is full of stereotypes for pretty much anyone you can think of. I don't agree with picking and choosing which ones are okay and which ones aren't. As in, the ones that personally offend me are not okay, but the ones that don't are fine. That's just kind of where we're at though.
Watching now (I think I only read an article on it before), and he describes apu as devious, servile, and goofy.
That really couldn't be further from how I would describe him.
EDIT: an IDIOT? What show was he watching?? Apu was crazy smart!
That really couldn't be further from how I would describe him.
EDIT: an IDIOT? What show was he watching?? Apu was crazy smart!
The point is all of them are bad, none of them is okay, but this dude right now, Hari, is talking for his people, and he went viral, this whole thing is not a "Fix Apu, keep everyone else offensive", this is Hari speaking for the people he represents to educate everyone about what it feels to be the minority, why do you think he brought up Whoopie Goldberg to speak about minstrel shows? because it would be fucked up if he spoke for a race he is not part of, African americans had to be the ones to speak about that and He can only speak for indians.
Look at my own posts on this thread, go on, browse what i have said, my icon makes it easy to find my post, why do you think most of them bring up mexican characters? why do you think i spoke about Bumblebee Man and Speedy Gonzalez? Because i am mexican, i cannot speak for the indians, i cannot speak for african americans or east asians, i can only speak for my people and Hari can only speak for his, so this is not an attack on apu while giving a pass to everyone else, this is about Hari speaking up for his people and hopefully rally other POC to speak for theirs.
Even when people outline the very specific ways in which the one in question has hurt them in the past?
Apu is really just a jump off point for a pretty good convo about representation. Sad a lot of people won't make it that far
While I appreciate he doesn't get offended on behalf of other races in this, mostly (he comments on people dressing up in Geisha outfits), you can't also say he's talking for his people, as if every Indian has the same views as he does. He's talking for himself, whether he sees it that way or not. I also don't agree with stereotypes "always being bad". That's pretty closed minded, in my opinion as satire and political/social commentary using stereotypes is a thing that can be done well and has been done well, like in The Simpsons, South park, or King of The Hill, etc...
Growing up in the UK as an Indian in the 80s/90s, we were just happy to see someone Indian on television. Apu didn't bother us. However, at that point we had Dhalsim, Temple of Doom and small roles in 70s/80s sitcoms. The bar wasn't exactly high.
It's only when Goodness Gracious Me came out in the late 90s (a British-Asian sketch show), Apu's shortcomings become glaringly obvious. It's just uncomfortable viewing. His character is mostly a funny accent and exotic mannerisms. I know what you're going to say - what about groundskeeper Willie? But the Scottish have Braveheart and possibly Highlander for positive representation. Who do we have? Fuckin' Mowgli?
Apu isn't racist, however I would say the creators didn't fully understand that for at least a decade, Apu was the only real consistent representation we had in the western media. It's a shitty job.
Rajesh in early BBT was absolutely awful too. The guy playing him is Punjabi, a 5000 year old martial race with a rich culture that put up a good fight against Alexander the Great and the British Empire. Yet he is reduced to a character who gradually evolved the ability to, er, converse with females.
It's a lot better now. Apu should have evolved in the direction our parents did. My mum came to the UK from a village with no running water and practically zero English - now she posts on Instagram and says "innit".
It's only when Goodness Gracious Me came out in the late 90s (a British-Asian sketch show), Apu's shortcomings become glaringly obvious. It's just uncomfortable viewing. His character is mostly a funny accent and exotic mannerisms. I know what you're going to say - what about groundskeeper Willie? But the Scottish have Braveheart and possibly Highlander for positive representation. Who do we have? Fuckin' Mowgli?
Apu isn't racist, however I would say the creators didn't fully understand that for at least a decade, Apu was the only real consistent representation we had in the western media. It's a shitty job.
Rajesh in early BBT was absolutely awful too. The guy playing him is Punjabi, a 5000 year old martial race with a rich culture that put up a good fight against Alexander the Great and the British Empire. Yet he is reduced to a character who gradually evolved the ability to, er, converse with females.
It's a lot better now. Apu should have evolved in the direction our parents did. My mum came to the UK from a village with no running water and practically zero English - now she posts on Instagram and says "innit".
Come on bruv, if you're going to use a GGM sketch that isn't 'Going for an English' then at least go with this
Sure if millions of Americans never left their homes and never stepped outside like....ever.
This is something I can get behind for sure.
I agree, Apu should have evolved, and maybe he did. I haven't watched The Simpsons in years however, and I bet a lot of people posting here haven't either.
There are millions of americans who live and die without meeting a non-white person
I rewatched the clip just now after seeing it earlier today.
Am I missing something? I don't read it as hostile or combative. It comes off to me as an admission that the show has dated baggage with Apu they can't erase from history.
This is a legitimate question from me. I doubt I can find an even handed look at what they were saying on The Simpsons with this scene considering how charged up everyone got today about it, but I really want to know if I'm missing something hateful in the Lisa/Marge clip where they say "What can you do?"
Am I missing something? I don't read it as hostile or combative. It comes off to me as an admission that the show has dated baggage with Apu they can't erase from history.
This is a legitimate question from me. I doubt I can find an even handed look at what they were saying on The Simpsons with this scene considering how charged up everyone got today about it, but I really want to know if I'm missing something hateful in the Lisa/Marge clip where they say "What can you do?"
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Name the Indian/Pakistani characters that appeared regularly on American TV in the 90's.
Then look at this survey which was linked earlier in the thread which showed that in 2013, 75% of white Americans didn't have a single non-white friend.
Fact of the matter is that there is a generation of Americans for whom their only real exposure to South Asians was Hank Azaria in the Simpsons and Fisher Stevens browning up for Short Circuit
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Ethnic groups are not evenly distributed throughout the US. There are areas that are extremely homogeneous.
They just said Apu was applauded and inoffensive, as if that's true.
And Lisa implies they're never gonna actually deal with the issue, as if it's okay because they're also implying that we're too politically correct now, and that Apu would be fine if not for PC culture.
I do think you can make an argument that Apu's problems were really only taken to task in the last few years.
Hank Azaria has won a bunch of accolades for the role, so the character had been celebrated. This isn't me saying Apu is a perfect character, just that, yes, he was less criticized decades ago.
Maybe I'm just reading the clip a certain way because I want to see the best in the team behind The Simpsons. I see the scene as them aknowledging the changing times (a change I personally can appreciate) but wondering what exactly they can do to fix things in season, what, 32?
Edit: season 29.
Maybe it's my relationship with Apu. I learned a good amount about Indian culture from the character (at least more than I did from any other TV program) and I always thought the staff tried to make him a fully realized character without sucking the humor out of him. He's confronted arranged marriage, become a father, discussed faith, dietary beliefs, etc, but at the end of the day he's still a bit of a reminder of 198X Indian guy humor.
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True, is an interesting question to ask -even before we start discussing if the complains are valid or not-, Why do mexicans, italians, germans or irish don't get upset at their stereotypes in the Simpsons but Indians do?
Who is to say they don't
One man just decided to make a short doc and got pub for it
I know some Mexicans aren't down with those stereotypes for a lot of the same reasons brought up in the documentary.
As for Italians, Germans, and Irish, if you think about the difference in representation in general it shouldn't be that hard to understand.
Considering you seemingly refuse to watch what you're railing against, this is a terribly hypocritical post to make.
Watch the fucking thing.
For what it's worth, that's still arguably presenting a pretty flat image of Indian culture, as Indian culture isn't monolithic. I don't mean that in the sense of all culture not being monolithic, I mean, just look at a language map of India to start with.
You really can't see how having Lisa Simpson shrug her shoulders over an issue like this, shielding criticisms by calling out political correctness is pretty shitty?
of all the characters to deliver the most resigned status quo statement; Lisa Simpson
Not only did it hand wave the very reasonable criticisms, it betrayed it's own character to do it.
For what it's worth, that's still arguably presenting a pretty flat image of Indian culture, as Indian culture isn't monolithic. I don't mean that in the sense of all culture not being monolithic, I mean, just look at a language map of India to start with.
It is, but I wouldn't expect him to represent all of that to begin with, if that's fair.
He hasn't really (he got married and had kids, but outside of the relevant episodes they mostly just become a backdrop), but then again few characters on The Simpsons have. At this point most of the characters' major changes in arcs have been the status quo longer than not.
I had heard about this documentary awhile ago, but never watched it till now. Thanks for sharing it.
That Simpsons call out was lame, but I expect nothing less from a show that is treated as royalty on FOX well well past its prime... they don't have to answer to anybody.
That Simpsons call out was lame, but I expect nothing less from a show that is treated as royalty on FOX well well past its prime... they don't have to answer to anybody.
I can see the Lisa angle annoying people, sure, but I can still understand the writers simply not knowing how to address the elephant in the room with Apu beyond the initial admission that he was once less problematic and even celebrated.
If you put me in their shoes I don't know what I'd do. Thirty years of history with the character and trying to make good on him, seemingly trying to keep him out of stereotype territory and even admitting guilt a few times. Maybe just recast him in the final season or two?
As stated before, there is no mexican stereotype in the show, there one mexican character, a parody of a mexican comedian who dresed up as a "bug" for his skits, and he is portrayed doing goofy skits just like his inspiration.
I will however tell you, i met the old mexican dub voice of Homer in a comic convention once, besides being the voice of homer he also was the director of the dub, one of the con goers asked him if he ever censored something about the original script for any episode, he said on the top of his head something he clearly remembered changing, a line from "Trash of titans" in which homer trashes Mexico ("That's not America! That's not even Mexico!" is the line), he changed it so homer doesn't literally says mexico, he just says "our southern neighbor", because he was upset about it, so yeah, other people do get upset about simpsons mocking their countries.
Eh, nobody holds Family Guy in any real esteem.
The Simpsons, as a show, has tried much harder to be progressive and decent. I can see the accountability they've established being taken to task.
I'm not really expecting him to, either, but I'm noting that he's still kind of a path of least resistance. Part of the idea of "orientalism" is that Europeans, faced with a multitude of nations of Asia, some of which are huge cultural influences with extremely complex histories in their own right, reduce them to a few stereotypical elements because that's far easier than understanding the whole.
Okay, if you want to make the documentary about those, we can discuss that too. There's no reason why we can't talk about both things.
In my hometown, there are less than 100 black people. 20,000 pop overall. I didn't meet an Asian person IRL until college. Certain areas of America are suuuper white.
They had a great chance to take the piss out of themselves in the episode where Utkarsh Ambudkar voiced Apu's nephew with a fourth wall breaking joke Utkarsh suggested but they didn't use.
I think casting Apu with a Indian actor would be a great move and chance for some smart comedy but The Simpsons don't seem in a rush to do much of that these days. Apu's accent could simply relax into something less stereotypical and actually played by an Indian man and at least the problem is finally addressed. It's a win/win scenario, I think.
How about read my posts? You know what they say when you assume something, right?
Regardless, I don't need someone to tell me what to think nor do I mindlessly parrot what other people say :)
Didn't say they did, still find it hard to believe that people have never seen another ethnic group outside of what's presented on tv.
But whatever if that's the case that's the case.
I'm surprised how many people in this thread got such a different read than I did last night during the actual show (though much of that could be due to the way it's presented here). It felt like they were being self-critical and admitting fault, then basically saying "we may figure out some way to go forward, or we may not, but in the meantime we'll avoid using Apu in any major capacity." I don't read it at all as them saying that they were in the right.