The show has gotten Kevin Michael Richardson on as a regular VA for miscellaneous African-American characters in the past decade
"The Simpsons" hits back at Hari Kondabolu's "The Problem With Apu"
- Thread starter Richiek
- Start date
Exactly, he's been doing it for 28 years. They aren't suddenly gonna bring in someone else now.
Why is "it's been happening for 28 years" an excuse for any of this to keep going? Again with the current writing staff (who have put many appalling representations of minorities in the show over the past decade) I doubt any real progress will be made, but they shouldn't get a free pass for any of this either.
The problem with Apu is a microcosm of a greater issue within The Simpsons itself of the staff working on it being outright hostile and resistant to deviation from the status quo. Be it acknowledging mistakes of the past, changing up a stale formula, booting Al Jean from his showrunner position, bringing in more female writers/directors (that they're not married to), being able to discern between legitimate criticism and tired fanboy rantings, incorporating multi-episode story arcs, aging up the characters permanently... hell, they were practically the last animated series on the planet to move into HD (a transition they finally made a little over 9 years ago).
Any time a problem comes up that impacts the status quo they either react too late or try to sweep it under the cracks and pretend it's not a thing... like how they still haven't bothered to give Bart a new teacher since Edna died, how they tried to pretend Harry Shearer's characters didn't exist when he was threatening his latest salary hold out and how they churned out half a season's worth of deathly silent episodes with some heavily recycled music cues from past episodes after they dumped Alf Clausen's orchestra in advance of finding a substitute scoring solution.
And I say all of these things while I'm still happy to have the show on the air... and I might be the only person contributing to this thread for whom this is the case. I love The Simpsons in all its incarnations and want it to be successful but this dismissive response towards the legitimate objections raised about Apu's characterization is hardly an isolated incident. This is a franchise that has existed in some capacity since 1987 and it wears its seniority as a badge of honor that means they feel they've earned the right to resist any and all feedback because they've been around for so long doing their own thing largely independent of even their own network brass.
Lastly, because we've got a unique amount of exposure towards offensive problems about the show right now, I just want to point out that THIS was considered to be "a funny joke" by this white, male, over the hill, writer's room in an episode released... why just earlier this year...
Nelson also got cooked in the school furnace this week because, I suppose it's funny for kids to get burned alive. Hopefully nobody from Siberia was watching.
Any time a problem comes up that impacts the status quo they either react too late or try to sweep it under the cracks and pretend it's not a thing... like how they still haven't bothered to give Bart a new teacher since Edna died, how they tried to pretend Harry Shearer's characters didn't exist when he was threatening his latest salary hold out and how they churned out half a season's worth of deathly silent episodes with some heavily recycled music cues from past episodes after they dumped Alf Clausen's orchestra in advance of finding a substitute scoring solution.
And I say all of these things while I'm still happy to have the show on the air... and I might be the only person contributing to this thread for whom this is the case. I love The Simpsons in all its incarnations and want it to be successful but this dismissive response towards the legitimate objections raised about Apu's characterization is hardly an isolated incident. This is a franchise that has existed in some capacity since 1987 and it wears its seniority as a badge of honor that means they feel they've earned the right to resist any and all feedback because they've been around for so long doing their own thing largely independent of even their own network brass.
Lastly, because we've got a unique amount of exposure towards offensive problems about the show right now, I just want to point out that THIS was considered to be "a funny joke" by this white, male, over the hill, writer's room in an episode released... why just earlier this year...
Because the show's primary established gay male clearly has to also want to secretly become a woman - in his 40s - despite never indicating such an inclination and it not being part of his established characterization.
Nelson also got cooked in the school furnace this week because, I suppose it's funny for kids to get burned alive. Hopefully nobody from Siberia was watching.
Last edited:
The Simpsons has always tried to counter expectations, to be anti establishment and contrarian and to play on people's prejudices to make them think.
For example, many of the Springfield authority figures are shown to be greedy, incompetent and undeserving of their status. Police chief Wiggum is lazy, fat and incompetent. Eddie is also dumb. The only cop who regularly steps up as a smart character who delivers the common sense is Lou, the black character. 30 years ago when the Simpsons began, having the black character be the voice of reason and the smart one was quite rare.
Mr Burns = greedy old white man. Kent Brockman = greedy newsreader. Mayor Quimby = corrupt, sleazy.
Dr Nick is portrayed as an incompetent sheister, Dr Hibbert is portrayed as competent, affable, reliable.
So to Apu; yes he does have a 'funny' accent and they poke fun at him and at Indian culture. But beneath this, the show plays with this by presenting Apu as a very hard working, self made man and a family man, who came to America ro better himself, who works round the clock to be a success and to provide for his family. Contrast that with the portrayal of Homer, who is fat, lazy, stupid, misses work when he feels like it. All of it is inherently taking a swipe at our expectations below the surface, even while making a joke about Vishnu on the surface.
That's not to say that people cannot or should not find Apu offensive in his general portrayal. Clearly some do and I think the show's response is weak and tone deaf. I also saw Al Jean tweeting about how the episode was going to 'upset Twitter' and it just feels like the show in Series 30 is just a troll show now. But it wasn't in Series 1 to 12ish and I genuinely believe that what I outlined in this post about their attempts at representation and portrayal were generally good natured and positive towards minorities at a time (1989-99) when many shows still weren't.
For example, many of the Springfield authority figures are shown to be greedy, incompetent and undeserving of their status. Police chief Wiggum is lazy, fat and incompetent. Eddie is also dumb. The only cop who regularly steps up as a smart character who delivers the common sense is Lou, the black character. 30 years ago when the Simpsons began, having the black character be the voice of reason and the smart one was quite rare.
Mr Burns = greedy old white man. Kent Brockman = greedy newsreader. Mayor Quimby = corrupt, sleazy.
Dr Nick is portrayed as an incompetent sheister, Dr Hibbert is portrayed as competent, affable, reliable.
So to Apu; yes he does have a 'funny' accent and they poke fun at him and at Indian culture. But beneath this, the show plays with this by presenting Apu as a very hard working, self made man and a family man, who came to America ro better himself, who works round the clock to be a success and to provide for his family. Contrast that with the portrayal of Homer, who is fat, lazy, stupid, misses work when he feels like it. All of it is inherently taking a swipe at our expectations below the surface, even while making a joke about Vishnu on the surface.
That's not to say that people cannot or should not find Apu offensive in his general portrayal. Clearly some do and I think the show's response is weak and tone deaf. I also saw Al Jean tweeting about how the episode was going to 'upset Twitter' and it just feels like the show in Series 30 is just a troll show now. But it wasn't in Series 1 to 12ish and I genuinely believe that what I outlined in this post about their attempts at representation and portrayal were generally good natured and positive towards minorities at a time (1989-99) when many shows still weren't.
Well the voice actor for her died so the character had to. Although I liked the episode where barts new teacher was voiced by Willem Dafoe.
At this point The Simpsons really isn't relevant enough to care this much about IMO. I will say while clearly the character started off as a one dimensional caricature, I'll give them credit for at least trying to expand the character and making him effectively one of the "good guys" on the show.
I think the best thing they could do is make Apu's nephew who doesn't speak accented English a series regular or create another Indian character/family that is more modern that lives in Springfield.
That's a better way of addressing the issue, even Hari I think seemed like he didn't like the idea of killing Apu, and changing the voice now after 28 years I don't think would work great either. The writers should understand though in the early/mid 90s, at the zenith of the show's popularity, this was more of an issue and they should understand why that was.
I think the best thing they could do is make Apu's nephew who doesn't speak accented English a series regular or create another Indian character/family that is more modern that lives in Springfield.
That's a better way of addressing the issue, even Hari I think seemed like he didn't like the idea of killing Apu, and changing the voice now after 28 years I don't think would work great either. The writers should understand though in the early/mid 90s, at the zenith of the show's popularity, this was more of an issue and they should understand why that was.
I just wanted to come and say that I listened to the Kamp Krustier and discovered the episode midway through.
They weren't kidding, it was beyond garbage.
Not a single joke landed, it shat on a great Simpsons episode, had very dodgy animation to the point that even I managed to notice it and by god you have to fuck up for that to happen (took me years and an actual animator pointing to me that proportions were shit in a random Naruto episode to tell you how bad I am at noticing this).
I don't think I have ever seen anything as bad as this and the worst part is that a good writer worked on this!
I wouldn't trust anyone working on the show with trying anything related to minorities at all, they don't understand comedy after spending 30 years on it why would they understand anything related to anything?
A large part of the reason this is even an issue is because the show has run 15+ years past its expiration date. Similar to how older politicians run into issues w/ prior, formerly acceptable decisions/compromises coming back to haunt them.
I'm partway through watching the "I Am Indian" thing that the writer of the article is credited for. It's says it's a take-off on "I Am Canadian", but I'm not seeing it. "I Am Canadian" was a commercial which said I am not any of these Canadian stereotypes. This bit doesn't do any of that, but instead, it seems like some feelgood nationalism or something? It's kind of weird.
It starts off with "I'm Indian. Just Indian. I'm not South Asian and more than Russians are North Asian." I don't have any problem with being called South Asian, though? It's just a wider net. It's like someone being called European instead of a specific country. India might the most prominent country in the region but we're not the only South Asians.
"Sure, we love our state, but there's strength in numbers. 1 out of every 6 human beings is Indian, so stop dividing us." Man, India's the place where you have dozens of national languages because every region has their own. Half the country eats rice and half of it eats bread. Hell, you've got areas that became part of India through annexation. Of course it's going to be divided.
And then he goes on to brag about all the things that India has given the world.
Also, the example he gives of Apu's three dimensionality is kind of a terrible moment to begin with. Most of the national flags of the Confederacy were placed on a white background as a symbol of white supremacy. Secession declarations themselves identify opposite to slavery as the root cause. Apu was wrong; it was just about slavery.
It starts off with "I'm Indian. Just Indian. I'm not South Asian and more than Russians are North Asian." I don't have any problem with being called South Asian, though? It's just a wider net. It's like someone being called European instead of a specific country. India might the most prominent country in the region but we're not the only South Asians.
"Sure, we love our state, but there's strength in numbers. 1 out of every 6 human beings is Indian, so stop dividing us." Man, India's the place where you have dozens of national languages because every region has their own. Half the country eats rice and half of it eats bread. Hell, you've got areas that became part of India through annexation. Of course it's going to be divided.
And then he goes on to brag about all the things that India has given the world.
Also, the example he gives of Apu's three dimensionality is kind of a terrible moment to begin with. Most of the national flags of the Confederacy were placed on a white background as a symbol of white supremacy. Secession declarations themselves identify opposite to slavery as the root cause. Apu was wrong; it was just about slavery.
Last edited:
I think it's a fair point that in the 90s, the Simpsons were capable of nuanced character work that developed one-note stereotype characters beyond generalizations of entire minorities. But the good intentions don't mean much when the takeaway for all but the most diehard fans of the show was that Apu is the "thank you come again" Indian guy. The average person familiar with the show isn't going to point you to the excellent citizenship episode as the first thing that comes to mind when they think of Apu, they're going to think of the time Apu got in an arranged marriage or how he has octuplets. In another era Apu may have been a step forward in representation of Indians - in the 90s when he was one of the only Indians on television, not so much.
yikes
yeah, that's...that's something
he's not wrong - they could've used bart, homer or anyone else, but they chose their 'voice of reason" i the family...pretty deliberate
oh if we're opening the floodgates to embarrassingly racist moments on modern Simpsons, here's one from last year where Comic Book Guy's Japanese wife (voiced by a white person in an accent of course) spontaneously dresses up in panda cosplay because that's what every Japanese person does:
but please do carry on about how this show is good-intentioned about rallying against PC or whatever
but please do carry on about how this show is good-intentioned about rallying against PC or whatever
I agree with this. Indian accents in English are just funny to many people. It doesn't matter if it's real or imitated. It's why my Hindi teacher in university would use the accent for humour, and it's why wife likes to imitate her relatives that have that accent.CBC article said:
As for Hari's video, the minstrel comparisons seem far fetched. I understand the point of those people saying Apu was a problem because he was practically the only representation on TV for many people. Had there been the level of variety of characters Italian people have, maybe it would have been different. And it seems like Canadian and British Indian people complain about Apu less than Americans. Both Canada and the UK have higher percentages of Indians than the US; maybe that has something to do with it.
I find the notion that a voice actor must be the same race as the character to be ridiculous, at least in non-mocking situations. Acting is about being someone you're not. For live action, switching ethnicity usually looks bad (see Cloud Atlas awkwardness) but for animation, it shouldn't matter at all. Bart Simpson being voiced by the opposite of a young boy still works perfectly.
You know how true that is?
Smithers started as an African American character, look where we are now.
I heard/read somewhere that they changed that because of how sycophantic Smithers is.
Honestly having Groening more involved and Simon around probably kept people like Jean in check
I see where you're coming from.
One thing The Simpsons was good at doing was appealing to the common viewer AND the high brow viewer, also delivering nuanced subtext and smart jokes mixed in with the silly comedy and catchphrases, so that everyone had something to enjoy.
It's why kids and adults alike loved the show. For every dumbass or young kid who just loved reciting 'thank you come again!' Or Nelson's 'Ha Ha!' There was someone who loved the intelligent commentary on the establishment (Mr Burns, Quimby, etc) the swipes at corporate culture and big business (Malibu Stacey, Lil Lisa Slurry), Politics (3 eyed fish), etc etc. It successfully managed both in equal measure.
I personally find Apu to strike a fair balance. I think it would be seriously problematic if his surface character was backed up by being lazy or greedy or something, but I understand that there are others who don't like him.
What's for certain is that Simpsons 2018 is no longer a show capable of delivering intelligent humour or a smart response to its critics.
I'm aware of that. There should be more non-white people in voice acting in Western animation. I'm just saying it's wrong to tell someone they shouldn't play a voice part because of their race.
I'm not even sure Simpsons 2018 is capable of delivering humor at all at this point.
Fuck that Kamp Krustier episode was shit!
It's pretty telling that when Futurama started, Simpsons took a dive in quality it never really recovered from.
Maybe they need someone hungrier than Al Jean to run the show....One thing for sure they need to fire the writers, they're clearly not capable enough to handle something as difficult as the Simposons.
They even manage to mess up Itchi&Scratchy! How can you mess up Itchy&Scratchy!?!
Fuck that Kamp Krustier episode was shit!
I think they mentionned that in the commentaries in the 1st few seasons.
It's pretty telling that when Futurama started, Simpsons took a dive in quality it never really recovered from.
Maybe they need someone hungrier than Al Jean to run the show....One thing for sure they need to fire the writers, they're clearly not capable enough to handle something as difficult as the Simposons.
They even manage to mess up Itchi&Scratchy! How can you mess up Itchy&Scratchy!?!
If the Simpsons was a British TV show there would have been a major uproar about Apu. British sitcoms in the 70s had many Apu like racist portrayals of Asians, but by the 80s this was seen as racist and unacceptable, and by the 90s practically unthinkable.
I feel like the face Dana Gould makes when he asks Hari what he thinks of Mr. Burns and Hari has an intelligent response ready is also fitting.
Not really, they could have easily hired a new voice actress rather than retiring the character.
He isn't wrong but modern Lisa is pretty much treated as a joke anyway as the show has gone to great length to show that she doesn't actually care about these issues, she's just a poser.
Modern Lisa is a fraud.
oh if we're opening the floodgates to embarrassingly racist moments on modern Simpsons, here's one from last year where Comic Book Guy's Japanese wife (voiced by a white person in an accent of course) spontaneously dresses up in panda cosplay because that's what every Japanese person does:
but please do carry on about how this show is good-intentioned about rallying against PC or whatever
I never understand why they decided to have that loser get married off. Isn't the joke that he's too cynical and bitter to even get married?
Sure, in a world where everyone is equal and there are equal parts to go around for minorities, and the roles in questions aren't caricatures of racist caricatures, I would agree.
Got halfway through this, player sucks on mobile. Crashed. Wouldn't let me skip though it after reloading. Was good if what I had seen.
Do many people here consider Speedy Gonzales a racist character? Even though Mexicans love the character and embraced him.
for real? that feels like a complete 180 of her classic character, that's a shame
Brought up earlier in the thread. Speedy is mostly fine, but his surroundings and supporting cast in classic cartoons definitely had problems. The recent-ish Looney Tunes Show, which has a suburban setting, apparently handled him well.
Nope, this is some "you are the racist for pointing out racism" bullshit. The article got worst as it went on....
Yep but Lisa has it worse because she gets no happy ending, whereas the other Simpsons characters does.
This blog post kinda goes into it in greater length.
Bizarrely I think Ralph has consistently been the same character through the years.
There are people unironically advocating for racism because "it's funny when they talk the way they do". In this thread. Come on now. You know you're racist if you think this, right?
Not sure what stereotypes Speedy perpetuates, his cousin Slowpoke Rodriguez though....
It's pretty mind-boggling. If this thread was about gay, trans or black representation, or pretty much any other minority group, it would be a wasteland of warnings and bans with all the hand-waving, drive-bys, dismissive jokes and whataboutisms and no one would dare come in here with the kind of "you guys think everything is racist these days" and "this is why Trump got elected" type posts.
Last edited:
https://antihumansite.wordpress.com...the-simpsons-in-a-month-heres-what-i-learned/
And I guess now I understand the general uneasyness I have with the Simpsons in general...
Not even, he was just a regular kid at the beginning, they gradually made him dumber and dumber.
To the point it's baffling that he's even in the same class as Lisa.
Current (or even from Season 10 and on) Ralph would never have the capacity to do what he did in that episode where he's with Lisa.
You know why this joke works?
Because it's the subversion of the usual Lisa character,
still think the episode would be better if she did join the team...
Although that might be a redo of that hokey episode in that case.
Reading this thread is depressing. The characters of my fave childhood show have dramatically changed.
Edna died, Lisa is just a poser, Ralph has gone from naivety to just dumb etc
Edna died, Lisa is just a poser, Ralph has gone from naivety to just dumb etc
What the hell? So glad I ditched Simpsons almost two decades ago now. Lisa is a poser and Comic Book Store "Whoa whoa! A fat, sarcastic star trek fan. You must be a devil with the ladies" Guy got married? That's a travesty. >_<
Nah, to be fair, Ralph was always pretty damn dumb.
I'm waiting for a proper critique of Ralph which explains why having a boy who is obviously Special Education Needs being the butt of so many jokes is shameful. There came a point where the joke, that the US school system was so bad that Ralph was never helped, stopped being funny and the writers just started using him as a "'Special Kids' say the dumbest things" mouthpiece.
It's sad, really. Somehow racism is completely fine if people find it funny. They don't realize its implications or the affect it has on that particular race group and how people treat them. This thread has been a disappointing read.
Yeah, a lot of the characters and their traits were originally introduced to show the flaws of America but now it has gone on for so long that those characters are just paraded around so that people can point and laugh at them. Originally the structural flaws of their society was the butt of the joke, now its victims are.
What's really crazy is in the first few seasons he was actually kind of witty
Yeah... such a shame that he became "I bent my wookie" Ralphie. :(