Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
But also a shittier cast.
That is a real stretch. The vast majority of Mario's background characters are literally just like clouds or flowers with eyes.

The difference here is Mario's characters are oftentimes in pretty good games. I am sure more people would hate characters like Toad if they were not playable in a large assortment of quality games. I am also pretty certain characters like Zavok would be popular if he was in any good games period. I mean, the fact that characters like Big the Cat or Shadow the Hedgehog have rather large fanbases even though they are almost exclusively in bad games says a lot.

But I find characters like Yoshi, Toad and Birdo to be terrible designs outright, so different strokes and all that.
 
Sep 28, 2018
1,073
The Sonic cast often weirds me out. Silver is like seeing Trunks but as an animal yet he's still "cool" or something. The whole cast gives off that vibe sometimes which makes it much cornier than Mario which is all just silly fun.

Silver is a garbage character, I've not played any of the games with him in but I hate his design... He really brings nothing to the table. But for every swing and miss it still much better represents female characters.

If you look at the Mario cast, so many of them feel like clones... There isn't much depth of character and the females are all kind of ditsy, dress wearing princesses that need help.
 
Sep 28, 2018
1,073
That is a real stretch. The vast majority of Mario's background characters are literally just like clouds or flowers with eyes.

The difference here is Mario's characters are oftentimes in pretty good games. I am sure more people would hate characters like Toad if they were not playable in a large assortment of quality games. I am also pretty certain characters like Zavok would be popular if he was in any good games period. I mean, the fact that characters like Big the Cat or Shadow the Hedgehog have rather large fanbases even though they are almost exclusively in bad games says a lot.

But I find characters like Yoshi, Toad and Birdo to be terrible designs outright, so different strokes and all that.

Agreed, although Shyguy has a great design...

Also, small world... (It's Sharky) :D
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
I am going to assumed by your post that you're a male, so you will never understand to why some folks make a big deal about a character gender.
So I'm a male so I'll literally "NEVER" understand, but your're also a male yet you seem to understand? Hmmm curious case that.... Almost like this is meaningless comment thrown around to gatekeep discussion.

The issue of identity and representation is not a hard one to grasp. Most people get it. You're not "woke" or an intellectual for seeing. You don't get a badge.
I see it, others see it. The point I'm trying to make is there are degrees to it and some people are taking it to extremes and trivializing the actual issue.

I'm a person of color who's identity has never been represented in any video game. Well at least not any I've played and none I've heard of. I've played as white women and white men, I've played as black women and black men, I've played as Asians, Hispanics etc.. even Bandicoots, Hedgehogs and Aliens. But never my race. It's never diminished my enjoyment of any game and it's never left me feeling detached from any game. And by and large I DO NOT attribute that lack of representation to anything deep rooted or malicious.

The sheer fact that New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is the first 2D mainline Mario game to have a playable female character since Super Mario Bros 2, highlights just how much of a poor job Nintendo has done in giving female players the options to play as the Princess.
You're shocked as to why a game TITLED about BROTHERS has predominantly been dominated by those brother characters? Wow. When is Tomb Raider going to feature a playable male character I wonder???

In fact the only role that women seems to play in the Mario universe is...getting kidnapped.

That doesn't exactly send a good message and in this day and age, kinda outdated.
This is a parody, right? Has to be. It's just WAAAAAAAAAY too easy a target.

Aren't you mentally exhausted of being outraged at every trivial thing? Imagine playing Mario and getting that as the take away. You must be so jaded with life.
 

YoEssay

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
247
I guess, but it won't matter if the series doesn't do well. And this is coming from a Sonic fan.
 

Virtu Al

Member
Oct 25, 2017
485
Italy, Rome
This thread makes me sad because it reminds me Sega doesn't want us to play as anyone but Sonic in modern games (Not counting mania, of course.)
 
Sep 28, 2018
1,073
This thread makes me sad because it reminds me Sega doesn't want us to play as anyone but Sonic in modern games (Not counting mania, of course.)
There was this big 'and shitty friends' thing back in the late 00's where nobody wanted to play as other characters... But what people REALLY didn't want is non Sonic gameplay in Sonic games. Big the Cat for example is a great character... But I don't want to fish in a Sonic game...

Sonic Mania proves that not only are other characters totally fine, they can even enhance the experience, if they don't stray too far from the core gameplay of Sonic.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,489
Daily reminder that Blaze is the best post-Genesis Sonic character by far and is more fun than Sonic himself in all of her playable appearances.
This. I want a new game to feature Blaze as a main character, and quit tying her to that fucking loser, Silver, like they've been doing since Sonic '06. Cream is Blaze's best friend, and I won't have anyone tell me otherwise. Fuck Silver. More Blaze, less Silver. We got Sonic & Tails, let's make Blaze & Cream official.
 

saladdays

Member
Sep 11, 2018
552
The characters gender is literally the last thing I notice in games like these. Actually scratch that, it's not even the last thing since I don't notice them ever. Not sure why people think every game needs to have some "message" or "cause".
Everything in every piece of art says something, even if the artists themselves don't realize it.
 

Joltik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,780
If you look at the Mario cast, so many of them feel like clones... There isn't much depth of character and the females are all kind of ditsy, dress wearing princesses that need help.
To be fair, the only princess that fits this description is Peach, herself and that's when she's not a playable character.

Daisy has been a damsel in distress once in her debut game and ever since then she's been characterized as a sassy tomboy in various sports and party games.

Rosalina is some kind of powerful Space Goddess who hasn't been a kidnap victim, watch over her star children, and can also help create new galaxies and universes. She also taught Mario that spinning star move in Mario Galaxy.

Pauline has been kidnapped several times by DK, but she's and elected Mayor of her own city and a talented singer on the side. She's seems similar to Rosalina in that they are more "mature" than Daisy and Peach.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,481
Hahahaha and you're wrong OP because Striker Daisy is more badass than any other Sonic female character.

1547396010462.png
Bowser's teammates aren't as afraid of him as Daisy's are of her.
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,128
I dunno, she kind of always read is like... generic Sexy old style cartoon character. And didn't really read much into it, but this is my perspective.
i see that. but "old style" isn't always timeless as far as what's acceptable anymore. also, she was the first sonic character with chest physics, she was introduced with a creepy body scanning (bottom scanning upward) camera angle and also...
With human breasts and physics for them.

If you think that's a normal bat and not a sexualized one then well... I just don't know lol
 
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Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Aren't you mentally exhausted of being outraged at every trivial thing? Imagine playing Mario and getting that as the take away. You must be so jaded with life.

I am willing to continue this debate with you when you have grown up and gained some maturity and in debate in a non aggressive manner.

You are incredibly condescending with your "Aren't you mentally exhausted" line.

Me neither, but my 11 year old Niece always wants to know more about characters she's playing as and will gravitate towards female characters. It's nice to be able to say they're more than helpless princesses that need saving...

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make. The number of time Peach has been playable in a mainline Mario game is two, Super Mario 2 and Super Mario 3D World. Though we could stretch that to three if we include Mario run, either way this is bad as it means that Toad has playable in more games that she had.

She also currently only had one spin off title whereas Luigi had 2 with another Luigi Mansion title releasing this year.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,931
Weird you included Tails due to perceived androgyny yet made Toad male even though Toads are officially asexual and just dress up whatever gender they want.

I am going to assumed by your post that you're a male, so you will never understand to why some folks make a big deal about a character gender.

The sheer fact that New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is the first 2D mainline Mario game to have a playable female character since Super Mario Bros 2, highlights just how much of a poor job Nintendo has done in giving female players the options to play as the Princess. In fact the only role that women seems to play in the Mario universe is...getting kidnapped.

That doesn't exactly send a good message and in this day and age, kinda outdated.



Yeah that's just bullshit as Nintendo clearly defines what Toads are male and what Toad are Female.

Otherwise why is Toadette is the only one who is able to transform into Peachette but the other playable Toad isn't.



The Kooperlings aren't Bowser's Kids. Bowser Jr is the only kid he has.
I'd say the main reason Peach hasn't been playable in the NSMB games is that Nintendo was heavily pushing for every player in mutliplayer to have the same experience. Luigi has played identical to Mario in several games, so him not having his higher jump and slipperier feet isn't a big deal, but Peach not having her ability to float would be a much bigger deal. That said, they could have made one of the toads Toadette.

With 3D World they experimented with simultaneous 4 player co-op with characters with different abilities, and with NSMBUDX they found a workaround for Peach by making Peachette Toadette's version of the flying squirrel suit so she doesn't totally break the game.

I have a feeling with the next 2D game they'll have the Mario USA crew with their abilities ala 3D World.

Also, it's a big shame that Sonic Mania failed to have Amy Rose.

i see that. but "old style" isn't always timeless as far as what's acceptable anymore. also, she was the first sonic character with chest physics, she was introduced with a creepy body scanning (bottom scanning upward) camera angle and also...

With human breasts and physics for them.

If you think that's a normal bat and not a sexualized one then well... I just don't know lol
I dunno, the worst thing about Rouge is why does she have arms AND wings? She's more like a succubus.

Something like this would be better:
JPjJB4F.jpg
 
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Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
i see that. but "old style" isn't always timeless as far as what's acceptable anymore. also, she was the first sonic character with chest physics, she was introduced with a creepy body scanning (bottom scanning upward) camera angle and also...

With human breasts and physics for them.

If you think that's a normal bat and not a sexualized one then well... I just don't know lol
\
I can understand that perspective and truth be told I would like a rouge redesign, though to be fair I would like a redesign for all sonic characters? I think boom as a concept was solid but exicution was horrible on all cylinders. But an off shoot universe with designs that conform less to the norm, would be neat

Back to the point though, I get your point

I dunno, the worst thing about Rouge is why does she have arms AND wings? She's more like a succubus.
JPjJB4F.jpg


Something like this would be better:
The thing with that is the design she has is adhering to the sonic animal design structure. There is concept art of the rouges, a group of 3 bird characters, where they have feathery wing like arms instead of the gloved hand situation end up with. The reason they went with the latter is that it disrupts their design philosophy that they have with the characters.They have body types in and try to fit in any extrenious stuff where it doesn't disrupt what is the core sonic body design.

Do I want them to do at somepoint? Yes, I think there's experimentation to be done with the modern era sonic designs, possibly moving some of them pass their mickey mouse and felix the cat influnces into some interesting stuff. And leave some of the rubberhose cartoon style stuff more so to classic sonic.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,559
I mean yeah. It really isn't hard to outdo the Mario Princesses and who cares about Toadette.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,931
The thing with that is the design she has is adhering to the sonic animal design structure. There is concept art of the rouges, a group of 3 bird characters, where they have feathery wing like arms instead of the gloved hand situation end up with. The reason they went with the latter is that it disrupts their design philosophy that they have with the characters.They have body types in and try to fit in any extrenious stuff where it doesn't disrupt what is the core sonic body design.

Do I want them to do at somepoint? Yes, I think there's experimentation to be done with the modern era sonic designs, possibly moving some of them pass their mickey mouse and felix the cat influnces into some interesting stuff. And leave some of the rubberhose cartoon style stuff more so to classic sonic.
No. The first character based on a flying animal in Sonic was Ray the Flying Squirrel, and he has wingflaps similar to what a bat should.

Bean came after, but that's similar to characters like Donald and Daffy Duck where the wings act as arms. Where it would have been an issue, like with Rouge, would have been if he had wings in addition to arms. The Babylon Rogues don't do that, either. They are consistent with Bean. Rouge is inconsistent with their design structure.
 
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Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
No. The first character based on a flying animal in Sonic was Ray the Flying Squirrel, and he has wingflaps similar to what a bat should.

Bean came after, but that's similar to characters like Donald and Daffy Duck where the wings act as arms. Where it would have been an issue, like with Rouge, would have been if he had wings in addition to arms. The Babylon Rogues don't do that, either. They are consistent with Bean. Rouge is inconsistent with their design structure.

They ignored ray because they didn't care.
Outside of ray, everything I said lines up, all the extrenious stuff doesn't get in the way of the core body shape. And even with ray the wings only come out when he's flying.

Edit: This isn't me being snippy, Sonic Team just ignores shit they don't care about all the time. So they might have strait up not given a shit , and just had a design philosophy and just went with it. That's it
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
Complete mischaracterization of my point. A pretty petty strawman on your part. I'm not trying to shut down "this discussion". There is a discussion here to be had. I'm not for one second saying that video games (or any form of entertainment) don't have some examples of malicious/sinister/(whatever you want to call it ) characterizations of characters. But it doesn't serve the "discussion" at all when it's no longer about these types of example and instead descended into insanity whereby people are looking and creating these outrages in their own minds over EVERYTHING and trying to rouse people to fight against them. What you do is you trivialize the actual examples and you create more enemies for "this discussion" than you create rational supporters.

I mean I came into this thread with positive examples of characters I liked in the Sonic series, and the stuff I criticised was hardly this huge reach. I find it boring when a game treats "girly girl" as a character quirk, as opposed to just having characters that happen to be female. Ain't that much of a stretch imo

You came into this thread proudly announcing that you never notice gender and people need to stop getting offended by everything. You've typed sooooooo much which essentially just says "stop talking about this I don't care" without actually engaging in any arguments.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,931
They ignored ray because they didn't care.
Outside of ray, everything I said lines up, all the extrenious stuff doesn't get in the way of the core body shape. And even with ray the wings only come out when he's flying.

Edit: This isn't me being snippy, Sonic Team just ignores shit they don't care about all the time. So they might have strait up not given a shit , and just had a design philosophy and just went with it. That's it
The flaps with Ray are always there, they're just less pronounced to fit the situation, which is exactly how it should be with Rouge. They can come out when she fliesand it doesn't interfere with body shape at all. Like how they didn't give Bean or the Babylon Rogues wings in addition to arms. Again, the issue is that she has BOTH. They just wanted her to look like a succubus and it looks bad and inconsistent with all the other characters. She sticks out like a sore thumb.

She'd be more like Batgirl
nPQyt7H.jpg
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,931
I think you reading way to in to succubus thing. They might have not just cared about ray at all.

As far as been goes, as far as I know, he's flightless? And The babylon rogues are focused around their weird ass boogie, boards, no need for them to have wings or anything because... the focus on the boards. I think she looks ok and doesn't stick out but that's just me
Succubus is clearly what they were going for. A seductive humanoid woman with big boobs, skintight clothes with hearts, and wings on her back. She's basically like a furry Morrigan.

GuJmduh.png
0EblwLEm.png


I'm only bringing up Bean and the Rogues because you said Rouge was consistent with their designs, but that'd only be true if they had wings on their backs in addition to arms. As far as we know they could be flightless or their "arms" could act as wings when they need them to like Daffy Duck here:
eWQYQmo.jpg


They can do whatever they want. Like the Ritos in Wind Waker as well.

Edit: Reading up on the Babylon Rogues, they are apparently... genie-like aliens from outerspace. Okaaaay.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,062
Okay, sure. Except for the fact that none of those Sonic characters (except for maybe one) are really common knowledge among mainstream "gamers" and Nintendo could just create female characters in the Mario games that would resonate more with the those same "gamers."
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,922
JP
That is a real stretch. The vast majority of Mario's background characters are literally just like clouds or flowers with eyes.

The difference here is Mario's characters are oftentimes in pretty good games. I am sure more people would hate characters like Toad if they were not playable in a large assortment of quality games. I am also pretty certain characters like Zavok would be popular if he was in any good games period. I mean, the fact that characters like Big the Cat or Shadow the Hedgehog have rather large fanbases even though they are almost exclusively in bad games says a lot.

But I find characters like Yoshi, Toad and Birdo to be terrible designs outright, so different strokes and all that.
Simplicity is good. I'll take a cloud with eyes over a walking cleavage bat any day. Mario characters are supposed to be simple and cute, Sonic characters are "too cool for school" designs - entirely different design philosophies.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
Simplicity is good. I'll take a cloud with eyes over a walking cleavage bat any day. Mario characters are supposed to be simple and cute, Sonic characters are "too cool for school" designs - entirely different design philosophies.
Yeah, Big the Cat is super edgy.

It is not simplicity though, it is outright lack of character and creativity. Mario has a million unappealing character designs like the Delphino residents or the Koopalings but no one really cares because they are almost never forced into playable roles. People hate Silver the Hedgehog because he is an outrageous design, backstory and abilities on top of being a forced playable character in universally terrible games. Sonic Team also struggles with making anyone in their games special or likable at all but that is just another issue on top of everything.

And singling out Rouge is a bit extreme because she is not even in that many games. There are loads of Mario characters with much more significant cleavage. If you count Donkey Kong stuff with Mario then Rogue looks like a nun next to someone like Candy Kong.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
Sonic's characters resonated with me because they felt like they had character, especially when written well. A lot of mario's characters are kinda... nothing, which is fine. But the few mario characters are do value are the ones that seem like they have character, and that character is usually relegated to spin offs.

Like, when I leave whatever sonic media i'm ingesting. I can like see sonic characters existing outside that space, having lives and shit. Mario characters? Outside of wario and rosalina? Nope
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
"sonic's shitty friends" became a big meme in the 00s, to the point where i think sonic team took it to heart and made sonic the only playable character in later games (hell, 2/3 of forces' playable characters are *both* sonic).

the friends have always been underrated as being an essential element to the sonic formula. i think mania and the advance games handle it well, where the characters have unique gameplay styles that give alternate paths through familiar levels to keep things fresh on subsequent playthroughs.

from a story perspective, it's also nice to have characters with defined personalities rather than being blank slates like yoshi or peach. the mario series has gotten better about this with stuff like luigi's mansion and especially the rpg spinoffs (dimentio, vivian, lakilester, so many paper mario characters had a ton of personality) but i think sonic does a decent job of incorporating it into the main games. too bad that sonic rpg on ds seems to have been really poorly received (never played it so i can't speak from experience)
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
"sonic's shitty friends" became a big meme in the 00s, to the point where i think sonic team took it to heart and made sonic the only playable character in later games (hell, 2/3 of forces' playable characters are *both* sonic).

the friends have always been underrated as being an essential element to the sonic formula. i think mania and the advance games handle it well, where the characters have unique gameplay styles that give alternate paths through familiar levels to keep things fresh on subsequent playthroughs.

from a story perspective, it's also nice to have characters with defined personalities rather than being blank slates like yoshi or peach. the mario series has gotten better about this with stuff like luigi's mansion and especially the rpg spinoffs (dimentio, vivian, lakilester, so many paper mario characters had a ton of personality) but i think sonic does a decent job of incorporating it into the main games. too bad that sonic rpg on ds seems to have been really poorly received (never played it so i can't speak from experience)
It was all around just not a great game

Its poorly received for a reason
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
Everything in every piece of art says something, even if the artists themselves don't realize it.

Wrong. Bioshock has a certain message that Ken Levine intended to be along the lines of "no system is perfect, humans end up ruining even the best theoretical ideas". Ken Levine said that was the message. People have often misconstrued the message of Bioshock as being anti-altruism and pro-objectivism and some people have seen it the opposite way. We know from Ken Levine that both these interpretations are wrong. BUT, Bioshock and Ken Levine provided enough depth to the game that it is plausible that while someone might come up short in understanding the true message that they somehow get lost within those layers of depth and come to these other conclusions.

Now let's look at a game with zero depth. Super Mario Bros. We see the theme of kings and princess etc.. in the game. Only someone with serious issues looks at Super Mario Bros and sees it as having a pro-message about monarchy and indentured servitude to the ruler. Yes the theme of monarchy is in the game. NO IT DOES NOT HAVE DEPTH.



I am willing to continue this debate with you when you have grown up and gained some maturity and in debate in a non aggressive manner.

You are incredibly condescending with your "Aren't you mentally exhausted" line.
You were never willing to have any type of discussion. Proof of this? 1) You wouldn't have literally instigated the discussion with a bad faith claim that I'm a man so "would NEVER understand". 2) You wouldn't have completely ignored 3 paragraphs of articulated rebuttals and then feigned offence at an innocuous comment at the very end to cop out of replying. You're not fooling anyone.


I mean I came into this thread with positive examples of characters I liked in the Sonic series, and the stuff I criticised was hardly this huge reach. I find it boring when a game treats "girly girl" as a character quirk, as opposed to just having characters that happen to be female. Ain't that much of a stretch imo

I don't even know what views you expressed in this thread because I didn't seek you or your point out. I made an open comment about my view, YOU engaged with MY point. Not the other way around. Don't get it mixed up and create some false narrative that I somehow attacked your innocent views.

You came into this thread proudly announcing that you never notice gender and people need to stop getting offended by everything. You've typed sooooooo much which essentially just says "stop talking about this I don't care" without actually engaging in any arguments.
Are you incapable of honestly engaging a point without creating strawmen? You're beyond pathetic. Imagine if some did that to you. "your entire argument has been that you want more female cute video game characters so you can satisfy your fetish". It's not hard.

1) I didn't say I "never notice gender". I said in games that lack depth like Mario gender is not something I notice.

2) I never told anyone to stop talking about anything. That's twice you stated this lie and twice I've corrected you. I'm just voicing my view about why these types of discussion are problematic.

3) I've systematically engaged every argument you and anyone else has made. Unlike you, so maybe take your own advice.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,551
United Kingdom
Me neither, but my 11 year old Niece always wants to know more about characters she's playing as and will gravitate towards female characters. It's nice to be able to say they're more than helpless princesses that need saving...
Then tell her about Rosalina, the planet-creating god being who's 8 feet tall and started life as a young orphaned girl only to take to the stars and lead a race of infant supernovas.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
I love how this Sonic thread has the equivalent of a YouTube 'skeptic' with a Simpsons avatar and a Bioshock username bemoaning anyone who looks past what he declares is authorial intent in a video game.
 

RedDevil

Member
Dec 25, 2017
4,168
Yeah that's just bullshit as Nintendo clearly defines what Toads are male and what Toad are Female.

Otherwise why is Toadette is the only one who is able to transform into Peachette but the other playable Toad isn't.

Official bullshit is still official, also how power ups exactly work or do not work is still somewhat of a mystery.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,922
JP
Yeah, Big the Cat is super edgy.

It is not simplicity though, it is outright lack of character and creativity. Mario has a million unappealing character designs like the Delphino residents or the Koopalings but no one really cares because they are almost never forced into playable roles. People hate Silver the Hedgehog because he is an outrageous design, backstory and abilities on top of being a forced playable character in universally terrible games. Sonic Team also struggles with making anyone in their games special or likable at all but that is just another issue on top of everything.

And singling out Rouge is a bit extreme because she is not even in that many games. There are loads of Mario characters with much more significant cleavage. If you count Donkey Kong stuff with Mario then Rogue looks like a nun next to someone like Candy Kong.
Big the Cat is exactly the kind of design you wouldn't see in Mario games. It's not aiming for minimalism, that's for sure. And I'm not singling out Rouge, she's just the first "horrible Sonic friend" I thought about, lol. And I don't know anyone who likes Candy Kong, that's why she's dead and buried, and will never rival iconic designs like Lakitu, Koopa Troopa, Toad, etc. (love them or hate them, they're iconic, they're easy on the eyes, they have universal appeal in the way Hello Kitty does).
 

KingLear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
323
Either one could introduce new characters at any given moment. If we're just looking at existing characters then wouldn't they be pretty even at this point? Mario's got peach, daisy, rosalina, toadette, while sonic has the Rogue, fox, the mouse, the hedgehog, uh... the new one plus the avatar. I'll admit i haven't played any sonics since adventure 2.

Point is both franchises are pretty comfortable expanding their roster so the potential is there in general. I think the real question is which one is going to give one of their female characters a starring role where you can't just fall back on Mario/Sonic. Nintendo already has even if it wasn't the most empowering example.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Counter point: a lot of people hate those characters to different degrees, it's not surprising that often anybody who is not tails or knuckles gets labelled "Sonic shitty friends"
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
Counter point: a lot of people hate those characters to different degrees, it's not surprising that often anybody who is not tails or knuckles gets labelled "Sonic shitty friends"
1) There are def people who just don't like anyone who isn't sonic
2) Who cares? The sonic shitty friends theme is a meme that isn't really reflective of how the generic video game buying audince feels about these characters

Shadow could be labled a shitty friend, but he's more popular than anyone not named sonic. Why should a bunch of angry nerds on the internet mad about their nostalgic needs not being met , be the metric for inclusion in video games, that's stupid.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
1) There are def people who just don't like anyone who isn't sonic
2) Who cares? The sonic shitty friends theme is a meme that isn't really reflective of how the generic video game buying audince feels about these characters

Shadow could be labled a shitty friend, but he's more popular than anyone not named sonic. Why should a bunch of angry nerds on the internet mad about their nostalgic needs not being met , be the metric for inclusion in video games, that's stupid.

It's less of a "that invalidates sonic" and more of a "nobody complains when peach is playable", frankly it's kinda fascinating that sonic games are so polarizing.

For the record im not a big sonic fan, but i like Amy and Cream a lot.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,816
It's less of a "that invalidates sonic" and more of a "nobody complains when peach is playable", frankly it's kinda fascinating that sonic games are so polarizing.

For the record im not a big sonic fan, but i like Amy and Cream a lot.
The answer for all these questions and more is pretty simple

Nintendo frequently makes good video games, and has an environment where they can make good video games. Sega does not do , or have that which causes bad video games. That's it. One of the ideas I saw after generations was " What if they made generations with more characters" , generally people like these characters, or at least want to like them. And when presented in good media, they do, or presented well rather.

Sonic team's ability to make good video games is....spottty at best , thus complaints.

The " Shitty Friend " thing arose mostly out of people upset at game quality, and then when it switched to sonic only and the games were still wack, or were good and had wack elemnts. Those complaints died down a lot and now there's a bunch of call for friends back even to degree where the statements on sonic adventure games by sonic team themselves is a lot more than usual. Because taking them away didn't really fix the issue, it just took away things people liked and didn't fix the studio.

To put it extremly simply "Because sonic team doesn't make good video games "

I don't know what dimension you live in where Candy Kong has one twentieth of the recognizability or popularity of Toad or Lakitu.
Huh , Oh i'm not talking about candy kong.

I just think Toad and Lakitu are on some ugg boots shit