Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
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Oct 25, 2017
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www.theverge.com

Students who grew up with search engines might change STEM education forever

Professors are struggling to teach Gen Z

Catherine Garland, an astrophysicist, started seeing the problem in 2017. She was teaching an engineering course, and her students were using simulation software to model turbines for jet engines. She'd laid out the assignment clearly, but student after student was calling her over for help. They were all getting the same error message: The program couldn't find their files.

Garland thought it would be an easy fix. She asked each student where they'd saved their project. Could they be on the desktop? Perhaps in the shared drive? But over and over, she was met with confusion. "What are you talking about?" multiple students inquired. Not only did they not know where their files were saved — they didn't understand the question.

Gradually, Garland came to the same realization that many of her fellow educators have reached in the past four years: the concept of file folders and directories, essential to previous generations' understanding of computers, is gibberish to many modern students.

Guarín-Zapata is an organizer. He has an intricate hierarchy of file folders on his computer, and he sorts the photos on his smartphone by category. He was in college in the very early 2000s — he grew up needing to keep papers organized. Now, he thinks of his hard drives like filing cabinets. "I open a drawer, and inside that drawer, I have another cabinet with more drawers," he told The Verge. "Like a nested structure. At the very end, I have a folder or a piece of paper I can access."

Guarín-Zapata's mental model is commonly known as directory structure, the hierarchical system of folders that modern computer operating systems use to arrange files. It's the idea that a modern computer doesn't just save a file in an infinite expanse; it saves it in the "Downloads" folder, the "Desktop" folder, or the "Documents" folder, all of which live within "This PC," and each of which might have folders nested within them, too. It's an idea that's likely intuitive to any computer user who remembers the floppy disk.

More broadly, directory structure connotes physical placement — the idea that a file stored on a computer is located somewhere on that computer, in a specific and discrete location. That's a concept that's always felt obvious to Garland but seems completely alien to her students. "I tend to think an item lives in a particular folder. It lives in one place, and I have to go to that folder to find it," Garland says. "They see it like one bucket, and everything's in the bucket."

That tracks with how Joshua Drossman, a senior at Princeton, has understood computer systems for as long as he can remember. "The most intuitive thing would be the laundry basket where you have everything kind of together, and you're just kind of pulling out what you need at any given time," he says, attempting to describe his mental model.

As an operations research and financial engineering major, Drossman knows how to program — he's been trained to navigate directories and folders throughout his undergraduate years, and he understands their importance in his field. But it's still not entirely natural, and he sometimes slips. About halfway through a recent nine-month research project, he'd built up so many files that he gave up on keeping them all structured. "I try to be organized, but there's a certain point where there are so many files that it kind of just became a hot mess," Drossman says. Many of his items ended up in one massive folder.

A fascinating piece on a quiet disconnect. Interestingly I feel like I retain the file folder structure for local files but I revert to 'giant laundry basket' for online stuff - my google docs and drive are just giant messes I always just search index through, but I made a game recently for instance and having proper file structure for organisational purposes was essential.

It really is so intuitive for someone who got into computing when I did that I never even thought that other people I consider likewise computer-literate would need it explained.

There are advantageous to, like, tag cloud structure I think as well - will be interesting to see if organisationally speaking stuff will be taken from both approaches
 
Mar 27, 2018
478
I'm the same as you, my desktop / computer in general are organized with nested folders and etc.

My Google Drive is a mess, random crap everywhere.

My Android phone is somewhere in between, and my iPad doesn't really expose the filesystem to me too often, so I kinda just shrug at that
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,756
The same deal happened with cars. Earlier generations understood the mechanics of a car and could figure out how to repair them themselves. Now very few understand these things and just take for granted the car's functionality as an appliance.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,608
So modern students are like my 85 year old mother?

I guess this is education not teaching them basic computer literacy, but how do you just think the files are 'somewhere in the computer'? You don't wonder where they are? You don't just throw all your written stuff into a heap on the floor, you at least put in subject binders right?

brb, going to shout at some clouds
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,473
My Google Drive is organized with folders and so are our cloud files at work. Lol at just throwing everything in one folder. You aren't serious right? Literally doesn't make sense haha.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,746
on windows you always interact with the file explorer in some way while on android you literally never have to touch it and many kids have never interacted with it. i see alot of kids on reddit be like "my first laptop!" and its cause they literally didnt need a computer until college or because they got interested in stem.
 
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Jintor

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,768
My Google Drive is organized with folders and so are our cloud files at work. Lol at just throwing everything in one folder. You aren't serious right? Literally doesn't make sense haha.

well, I don't really use the google drive in the same systematised way as I do the local files. my dropbox for instance which I use more seriously is properly formatted. You still get weird jurisdictional stuff for sorting (especially for documents which might fall under multiple headings) so I actually think in some instances some kind of tagging system would actually be more useful... but as far as I got to searching last time I had a look at this, nobody's made a local-level tag structure worth a damn, or at least one that was easier to use than just going file-directory structure like normal.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
My step son is twenty years old and has had a gaming pc since he was like seven. He only knows how to start steam 🤣

This is the experience of a lot of people entering the post secondary school system right now. Too often educators assume that use of technology equates to proficiency in said technology.

Some don't even know how to touch type effectively either.
 

Deimos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
I'd get it if these were little kids, but engineering students using simulation software? How???
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,209
If you grew up with Android or iOS for mobile devices, and never needed a proper computer, the concept of files and folders will definitely seem alien to you. Our phones do a very fantastic job of presenting an abstract layer that removes the concept of files and folders.

Your photos aren't "files", they're just photos in the Photo app. Your music isn't a "file", it's just a song that you bought off iTunes, or stream from Spotify. Your games aren't "files", they're just an icon on your home screen. Books are just in Amazon, or Google Play. Sure it's only a surface layer thing. But modern software does a fantastic job of hiding stuff like that from you.

As noted in the article, even MacOS and Windows are good at hiding the directory structure. Everything is searchable and everything is often contained in their apps, rather than presenting users with the actual files.

I've worked in IT for awhile now, and absolutely none of this is surprising to me - I've supported many people for whom the idea of directory structures is just incomprehensible to them.
 

Neobunch

Member
Nov 21, 2017
233
Yeah this was bound to happen eventually. I blame iOS. Primary reason I won't touch that shitty os with a 10-foot pole.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
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Oct 26, 2017
22,252
The same deal happened with cars. Earlier generations understood the mechanics of a car and could figure out how to repair them themselves. Now very few understand these things and just take for granted the car's functionality as an appliance.
Well, yeah, older cars sucked and broke a lot. People used to know how to set up the TV so it could run consoles, cable, and antenna. Now you don't need to because TVs are better and you plug that HDMI cord in and select the input. Having to know how computers work isn't that necessary.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I genuinely don't understand this. Do they just...not organize things? Even on my phone I keep things categorized. Why wouldn't you do that?
 

Yoshimitsu126

The Fallen
Nov 11, 2017
15,071
United States
They need to get to my level and not read terminal messages and warning like me at work because it's not on a nice editor!
I always have to paste these onto an editor to not hate myself while reading them.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,252
I genuinely don't understand this. Do they just...not organize things? Even on my phone I keep things categorized. Why wouldn't you do that?
Most people don't have to nor have a large amount of things to filter through. Like, take photos on phones, you can basically search dog and it will pull up any photo with a dog in it. On computers you just hit search and type and you almost always get what you are looking for. Like, why search for Diablo 2 character save files when I can type in the bar, "firegoeswhoosh" and it appears? Some of you have failed to realize convince has surpassed the need for organization and that organization is done automatically.
 

BLEEN

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Oct 27, 2017
22,069
iDevices didn't help with this whatsoever for all the years they didn't have a normal file manager I imagine lol
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,473
We are currently in a world where everything on computers is searchable. Browsing files is less and less necessary.

it's just odd to me to not create some folders. You can still search. Search PLUS folders is great.

If you have multiple ongoing projects or resources you have to access on a regular basis folders just make sense. Like you have 30 fonts you can choose from at any given time but your not going to sit there and remember every name right? Just go to the font folder.

Just a generic example, doesn't have to be fonts.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,069
it's just odd to me to not create some folders. You can still search. Search PLUS folders is great.

If you have multiple ongoing projects or resources you have to access on a regular basis folders just make sense. Like you have 30 fonts you can choose from at any given time but your not going to sit there and remember every name right? Just go to the font folder. Just a generic example, doesn't have to be fonts.
Options, baby! Gotta love 'em!

I'm unorganized as shit (but likely way way more organized then those students lol) so I get what you mean. I do audio editing, photo, & multiple gaming-related SD-stuffing stuff so I have to have some semblance of sanity with this shit. I'm talking terabytes of shit. Can't really get too far without organizing even a bit there lol
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,728
Jesus, so now Zoomers and Boomers have something in common...
4gqtz.jpeg
 

dhlt25

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,840
yea, search never works well for me, need to narrow it down to the correct folder first.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,121
Files and directories are convenient, but I prefer to memorize the disk addresses for the particular area of a file I want to look up. There's a learning curve for sure, but going straight to the blocks just feels more authentic
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,284
Phoenix, AZ
Not surprised. A lot of people don't like learning things unless they absolutely have to. Even if it involves something they use every day.
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,108
I genuinely don't understand this. Do they just...not organize things? Even on my phone I keep things categorized. Why wouldn't you do that?
The AI and search does it for them. Why spend time organizing when the computer will just give you what you want when you want it?

Honestly with the advent of ubiquitous smart phone use, I expected this basic computer illiteracy would become an issue as this generation came of age.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,249
Toronto
Know what's also fun? Asking someone if something is a specific file extension and they reply with "what's a file extension?".
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,015
Columbia, SC
The same deal happened with cars. Earlier generations understood the mechanics of a car and could figure out how to repair them themselves. Now very few understand these things and just take for granted the car's functionality as an appliance.

So this is why in some roundabout way in some works of fiction that technology essentially becomes magic. Usually it involves something that kills off a lot of people who understand the process and suddenly it's all magic because the knowledge went with them and the documentation somehow doesn't exist either
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,323
iDevices didn't help with this whatsoever for all the years they didn't have a normal file manager I imagine lol
You think kids keep their shit organized on Android devices because they have had access to a shitty file browser there, longer?

This has nothing to do with having a file browser, but more with the fact that 'folders / files' as a paradigm doesn't really exist on mobile.
On Desktop OS, most of the things you do (that aren't in the web browser or Mail Client) happen through finder / Windows Explorer. You have your file, you click it, the relevant program opens (Excel, Word, Acrobat, Photoshop, whatever).

On mobile OS it's the other way around. If you wanna work on a Word doc on your iPad, you tap WORD and it'll show you all your most recent word documents, straight in the app.
And any app / service where most of us grew up curating a nice little folder structure - like our Photos, or our MP3 collections, are 'libraries' now that - on one hand - hide any kind of folder structure from the end user, but - tho be fair - also offer a kind of structure that wasn't achievable with just folders like ARTIST -> ALBUM -> track1.mp3
 

Hexa

Saw the truth behind the copied door
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Oct 25, 2017
4,790
Is this really a major thing? In my personal experience of every gen-z person I know at least know how to handle directories and folders. Sure, that's just anecdotal experience, but so is everything in the article as far as I can tell.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,756
So this is why in some roundabout way in some works of fiction that technology essentially becomes magic. Usually it involves something that kills off a lot of people who understand the process and suddenly it's all magic because the knowledge went with them and the documentation somehow doesn't exist either
The generation that evolved with the early forms of the technology are gone and the few who understand going forward understand a much more complicated form of said technology. Yes, this happens with many technologies and is currently happening with personal computing devices.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,266
So this is why in some roundabout way in some works of fiction that technology essentially becomes magic. Usually it involves something that kills off a lot of people who understand the process and suddenly it's all magic because the knowledge went with them and the documentation somehow doesn't exist either

This has happened countless times in real life as well when a large civilization declines. When the pope sent the first missionaries to Christianize the Anglo-Saxons in England in the 7th century, the missionaries found that the Saxons had NO IDEA what to make of the ancient Roman ruins throughout Britain (which the Roman missionaries, obviously, at once recognized) to the point where they thought that an ancient race of giants had built them all because they surpassed anything they were capable of.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,069
You think kids keep their shit organized on Android devices because they have had access to a shitty file browser there, longer?
I think you missed my point.

The Android file browser has almost always been nearly analogous to file browsing on Windows and macOS(X). Yes, the UI is different, more vertical and shrunk, etc, but the same. Any shmoe could 'get it'.

On iDevices, only recently did things start to resemble what most know as a file browser in terms of structure and y'know, directories.

iPad was actually ahead since early iPadOS releases. So I'll cut most of those devices a break.

So yeah. I do think most people who grew up with iDevices were fucked on this front unbeknownst. You call Android's file management shitty but it worked and still works because it's a known quantity. It's that simple.

People rely on their phones at the end of the day way too much.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,758
The idea of dumping all your files into a single folder is crazy to me. I don't even consider myself very organized but geez.

That said searching for a file is faster than digging it out of a folder 9 times out of 10.
 

Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
2,021
Know what's also fun? Asking someone if something is a specific file extension and they reply with "what's a file extension?".
It's funnier when you have to explain that file extension doesn't really mean that much. You could rename your pdf file's extension to txt and most PDF readers would still read the file properly.