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Tsunami561

Member
Mar 7, 2023
3,245
forum.paradoxplaza.com

The Way Forward, an update from the team behind Cities: Skylines

Dear Cities fans, We see and understand the disappointment many of you have expressed after the release of Cities: Skylines II and the recent release of Beach Properties. We asked for your patience and support, and you’ve shown those. In...

We thought we could make up for the shortcomings of the game in a timeframe that was unrealistic, and rushed out a DLC that should not have been published in its current form. For all this, we are truly sorry. When we've made statements like this one before, it's included a pledge to keep making improvements, and while we are working on these updates, they haven't happened at a speed or magnitude that is acceptable, and it pains us that we've now lost the trust of many of you. We want to do better.

The very first thing we're doing is to compensate those who purchased Beach Properties. We will change the pack to be a free addition to the game, refund it to the extent possible, and provide additional content within the Ultimate Edition. Unfortunately, it will not be possible to offer refunds for Ultimate Edition buyers. This is due to the distribution of the Ultimate Edition across digital and physical storefronts, which create significant complexities for executing a partial refund.


We also want to address the pending Console release. As you know, our plan was to release in Spring of this year. We have been hesitant to communicate an actual release window because of the uncertainty we are facing, and to not make further promises we might not be able to keep. We have been struggling to get Cities: Skylines II to the necessary level of optimization for a console release, but are now hopeful that an upcoming build delivery in April will demonstrate sufficient progress for us to progress with a release candidate, and then a release build targeted for October. Before we have seen and evaluated the progress made in these builds however, we will not be able to confirm the release date, and even then, some uncertainty always remains. Our ambition is to deliver the experience that you all deserved at launch, but it will take time. It's important to note that the team working on the console release operates separately from our PC development team, so it will be progressing without splitting our focus or time.
 

egg

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,616
I swear it feels like every time I hear something about this game it's never good, ooof.
 

Rocketz

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,938
Metro Detroit
So no shock on the console delay. I had a feeling that was going to be the case with how the PC version released. Spring was a pipe dream.

I guess at least they are not shoving that out the door. Hopefully. Maybe.
 

Seiniyta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
523
This is honestly the best communication we've gotten so far and the only thing they 've really could have done.
They can't undo what they 've done. And although it's not in the best spot. CS:2 is far from a failed product and can absolutely be fixed up and end a great game with a great legacy. Though, a very rocky start to say the least.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,720
I'm so confused on this game.. the first was a mega hit from what I read and this one is just negative after negative
 

Bigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,643
I'm so confused on this game.. the first was a mega hit from what I read and this one is just negative after negative
It was rushed out the door before it was done because Paradox cares more about quarterly deadlines than finished games these days. From everything I've read it's less "the game is bad" and more "the game is literally not done."

To be clear, I do think the blame is far more on Paradox (the publisher) than Colossal Order (the devs), who seem to be trying their best to fix things but are hamstrung by Paradox's unreasonable deadlines.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,636
They are really lucky that there isnt any other major city building series out there to take its lunch like they did for sim city
 

Coolluck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
Well a few more assets in the game is nice to have, I guess. Sucks about the console release being delayed by a whole year (or more!) but it makes sense to get the PC version to a good place instead of trying to handle multiple messes at once.

Who put out that last statement that amounted to "fuck you, pay us"?
 

Sec0nd

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,071
It was rushed out the door before it was done because Paradox cares more about quarterly deadlines than finished games these days. From everything I've read it's less "the game is bad" and more "the game is literally not done."
As far as I can tell there were and are some definite janky ass things going on, primarily with lots of things of the economy sim being completely busted. And the game running a bit poorly at larger populations.

But the biggest sin is obviously not launching with proper mod and asset support. CS1 was also janky AF. But there were so many fantastic mods that improved that game a thousand fold and so many assets to distract you from all the jank. This time people don't have that distraction. As far as I can tell most things about the base game is actually better than they were than base game CS1. But last time 'we' played CS1 it had years of development, countless of expansions and the mods and assets mentioned previously.
 

Papercuts

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Jeez, rare to see someone outright say they rushed something out, though that seems to be the general vibe with the game itself.
 

Grove

Member
Apr 3, 2024
126
I have no animosity towards the developer, I feel very bad for them and the shit hand they were dealt but I'm never buying another Paradox game day one again. I know there are realities to the business side of things I am not privy to but I really don't understand why you would trip yourself up when the finish line is in sight. Surely this hurts them more than meeting deadlines no matter what?
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,647
We see and understand the disappointment many of you have expressed after the release of Cities: Skylines II and the recent release of Beach Properties. We asked for your patience and support, and you've shown those. In return, we let you down. We thought we could make up for the shortcomings of the game in a timeframe that was unrealistic, and rushed out a DLC that should not have been published in its current form. For all this, we are truly sorry. When we've made statements like this one before, it's included a pledge to keep making improvements, and while we are working on these updates, they haven't happened at a speed or magnitude that is acceptable, and it pains us that we've now lost the trust of many of you. We want to do better.

The very first thing we're doing is to compensate those who purchased Beach Properties. We will change the pack to be a free addition to the game, refund it to the extent possible, and provide additional content within the Ultimate Edition. Unfortunately, it will not be possible to offer refunds for Ultimate Edition buyers. This is due to the distribution of the Ultimate Edition across digital and physical storefronts, which create significant complexities for executing a partial refund. We realize that this is far from ideal, especially given the dedication those who have stayed with us since launch have shown. We are committed to repaying that loyalty, and therefore, we will compensate Ultimate Edition holders by adding 3 Creator Packs and 3 Radio Stations which, together, sum up to a value of USD 39.99. This solution hopefully ensures that you, regardless of purchase method, feel you receive fair compensation.

Looking ahead, we also want to make immediate and meaningful changes in the way we approach the game's development and our communication with you. Firstly, this means a complete focus on improving the base game and modding tools, and secondly, we want to better involve you, the community, as we choose our priorities going forward. We will focus on additional free patches and game updates in the coming months before Colossal Order spends time on new paid content, resulting in a move of the Bridges and Ports Expansion to 2025. In addition, the aforementioned Creator Packs are being produced independently, and will not take any focus away from the work on improving the game. To make sure we focus on the right things, we're putting together an advisory meeting, where a small group of player representatives, together with Colossal Order and Paradox Interactive, will discuss the development plan for this year. The people in this group are chosen for the size of their following within the community to represent as many people as possible. The teams from Colossal Order and Paradox Interactive will provide them with full transparency and answer any questions and critiques voiced. Our hope is that together with you, our community, we can make sure that we do not repeat the same mistakes we have made in the past and bring this game into a bright future.

We also want to address the pending Console release. As you know, our plan was to release in Spring of this year. We have been hesitant to communicate an actual release window because of the uncertainty we are facing, and to not make further promises we might not be able to keep. We have been struggling to get Cities: Skylines II to the necessary level of optimization for a console release, but are now hopeful that an upcoming build delivery in April will demonstrate sufficient progress for us to progress with a release candidate, and then a release build targeted for October. Before we have seen and evaluated the progress made in these builds however, we will not be able to confirm the release date, and even then, some uncertainty always remains. Our ambition is to deliver the experience that you all deserved at launch, but it will take time. It's important to note that the team working on the console release operates separately from our PC development team, so it will be progressing without splitting our focus or time.

In closing, we want to reaffirm our dedication to making Cities: Skylines II the best city builder it can be. We appreciate your support and feedback, and hope we can regain your trust going forward. It's our responsibility to earn it, and we hope these actions are a first step in the right direction.
We are deeply grateful for your continued passion for our game. Please stay tuned for further updates on the game and the refund process, and thank you for being a part of our community.

Sincerely,
Mariina Hallikainen
CEO, Colossal Order

Mattias Lilja
Deputy CEO, Paradox Interactive

forum.paradoxplaza.com

The Way Forward, an update from the team behind Cities: Skylines

Dear Cities fans, We see and understand the disappointment many of you have expressed after the release of Cities: Skylines II and the recent release of Beach Properties. We asked for your patience and support, and you’ve shown those. In...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

FAQ - The Way Forward

Welcome to the FAQ that has been posted alongside the message from Colossal Order CEO Mariina Hallikainen and Paradox Interactive Deputy CEO Mattias Lilja. The questions have been sorted into categories to make it easier to read. If you haven't...
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
Man this is such a disappointment. Before the game released I was super hyped to play it on my Xbox via game pass. I love the first game
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
It's funny how you don't usually get this kind of stuff happening with refunds etc very often, but this is the second game within like 6 months. Total War Pharaoh being the other.
 

wellpapp

Member
Aug 21, 2018
467
Gothenburg
What even is the point of a sequel when it's not even going to compare to Cities 1 in quality, function and content in maybe three years after launch? I can't see people moving on from 1 in atleast maybe two years of them fixing this mess.
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,596
Holy shit that one thread was right lmao

The idea that Paradox would refund money is WILD lol
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,010
The communication and the refund is surely nice, but will Paradox ever learn at some point? Like they had so many of these failed/rushed launches for games and DLCs in the last years, when it will stop?

I'm so afraid about the EU V launch right now.
 

PJTierney

Social Media Manager • EA SPORTS WRC
Verified
Mar 28, 2021
3,628
Warwick, UK
You know a game's launched in a rough state when a "state of the nation" address is posted to the community. Big props though, that is a very transparent and honest statement they made, no hiding behind fluff.

Hope they can turn things round, I enjoyed hundreds of hours of the first game on Xbox.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,280
The communication and the refund is surely nice, but will Paradox ever learn at some point? Like they had so many of these failed/rushed launches for games and DLCs in the last years, when it will stop?

I'm so afraid about the EU V launch right now.

Well, Prison Architect 2 just got delayed another four months, so I think Paradox might actually be starting to get spooked about negative effects of their public perception recently.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,631
It was rushed out the door before it was done because Paradox cares more about quarterly deadlines than finished games these days. From everything I've read it's less "the game is bad" and more "the game is literally not done."

To be clear, I do think the blame is far more on Paradox (the publisher) than Colossal Order (the devs), who seem to be trying their best to fix things but are hamstrung by Paradox's unreasonable deadlines.
Didn't paradox force the rush out of Lamplighter's League as well.
 

scurker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
661
From everything I've read it's less "the game is bad" and more "the game is literally not done."

It's this.

There's a solid foundation there and I think there's a chance to turn it around, however the game really needed at least another year in the oven. Not having mod support or map editing out of the gate was a huge misfire and even the CEO admitted as much back in February. There will probably be a good game there (eventually) but they've poisoned the well so much that there is going to be a significant challenge to change the community's overall perspective on the game.

I know city builders aren't a gigantic market, but you would think companies would learn especially after all of the things that happened post SimCity 2013. People are deeply passionate about their city builders.

I hope to go back to CS2 one day. I dropped off due to lack of mod support, but it's really going to be hard to gain my attention again with everything else I have in my backlog now.
 

Baha

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
793
I hope more and more devs go independent, the publisher route is still rife with companies that care more about arbitrary deadlines than releasing a quality product. Get a bigger revenue cut for themselves and go into early access if you have to if you need more funding during development. Paradox already has garnered a bad reputation and the devs working under them deserve better.
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,762
I want someone to do documentary on how they went from CS1 to CS2. How can they mess this up so badly?
  • Rushed out by Paradox when the game clearly wasn't ready.
  • Issues using Unity. General purpose engines aren't ideal for simulation heavy games like this. Go look up what the lead engineer of Ara: History Untold (upcoming turn based Civ competitor) has said about this. They developed a custom engine (Nitrous Engine) specifically designed to handle thousands of concurrent units. You're not going to have that same level of optimization and control with something like Unity, espcially for a sim heavy game.
  • Complete lack of any competition. Think about it....there are *zero* other major modern city building games. Paradox has essentially had a complete monopoly on the modern city building genre for several years. We need SimCity to get rebooted in a big way.
 
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Smash-It Stan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,283
Game releases in a very very bad state

Them: Sorry this shouldnt have happened, heres some more content to make up for it

DLC releases in a very very bad state

Them: Sorry this shouldnt have happened, heres the content you paid for but free and we'll make more content to make up for it

I wonder what happens next
 

Wrench

Member
Jan 19, 2022
1,592
If I was running an independent studio right now I would rather close it down than sign a deal with Paradox.
 

Sir Lucan

Member
Dec 19, 2023
663
So they learned nothing from the game's launch. And then they complain about their fanbase being "toxic". Their fanbase is completely justified in being pissed off.
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,870
This is the exact kind of game that needs a huge early access period so even if you screw up the release to EA launch you have tons of time while making revenue to fix things up. The first game lived on mods and assets and it's just unreal that sorting the second game around mods wasn't a key part of the design.

Didn't paradox force the rush out of Lamplighter's League as well.

My understanding was development was pretty tortured to begin with, and the studio defunded heavily before the game came out.
 

monketron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,877
So what went wrong with this game, was it just released not finished or not working.

As usual with broken games, the publisher forced the release before the game was ready and now the developers are the ones taking all the flak online and having to clean the mess up while the publisher drives away with a giant car full of cash.
 

aspiegamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,465
ZzzzzzZzzzZzz...
Oh right, there are console versions of this announced. Oof. It's hard to twist high performance out of a larger city on a top-end PC, so my sympathies to whoever is trying to port it to console processors.

This game isn't even BAD, or broken, or lacking features. There's good stuff and good ideas in there! It's just massively underwhelming, has a LOT of jank, and has impossibly awful optimization. It would have been fine as a $40 early access game. Sales port-launch are mostly people who knew this and assumed things would improve, like early access games do. They have not. You could easily convince me that there's only a single staffer assigned to this game, which is crazy considering the success of the original and sales potential this should have.
 

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,001
Paradox has been firing on all cylinders of late keeping their engine of disasters going. Just doesn't end.
 

Ventrue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
261
The communication and the refund is surely nice, but will Paradox ever learn at some point? Like they had so many of these failed/rushed launches for games and DLCs in the last years, when it will stop?

I'm so afraid about the EU V launch right now.

I'm hoping that after several recent disasters they decide not to give EUV the same treatment.

The soft launch of the development diaries for it recently seems like a good sign to me. Apparently it's already been in development for over 4 years, and it still isn't officially "announced."
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,757
Tokyo
  • Rushed out by Paradox when the game clearly wasn't ready.
  • Issues using Unity. General purpose engines are ideal for simulation heavy games like this. Go look up what the lead engineer of Ara: History Untold (upcoming turn based Civ competitor) has said about this. They developed a custom engine (Nitrous Engine) specifically designed to handle thousands of concurrent units. You're not going to have that same level of optimization and control with something like Unity, espcially for a sim heavy game.
  • Complete lack of any competition. Think about it....there are *zero* other major modern city building games. Paradox has essentially had a complete monopoly on the modern city building genre for several years. We need SimCity to get rebooted in a big way.

Oh man. Ara looks good. I hope it lives up to what the developers are saying. Thanks for pointing it out.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,294
Between this and Star Trek infinity, something needs to change at home.