"Things will never change, so there's no point trying" - My parents' apathetic attitude to the protests. The problem with white moderates.

[Midgarian]

We live in the UK.

We're from a non-white ethnicity that is white passing, which basically gives us the same privileges as white people, so for all intents and purposes we are white. People would guess us as being from a European Christian ethnic group based on our faces, even though we're from a Eurasian Muslim ethnic group.

We watched together the live footage of the protests in America.

I said: "The reason people are protesting is that they are fed up at the current status quo, these people want us to progress society to something that is greater".

They said: "Nothing will ever change, the inequality will always stay the same, so there's no point trying".

I said: "If people had that attitude in the past, then we'd still be living in Medieval conditions under a despotic King with no modern technology, culture and comforts. Our own ethnic origin country wouldn't exist if our founding fathers didn't think things could change and took direct action to make it happen".

They said: "Why are there so many opportunists in this protest? They are just there to steal stuff and break stuff. Why are they dancing and provoking the cops? They're just bored from the Pandemic Lockdown."

I said: "Why are you focusing on the vandalism? Why not focus on the core protest and the message, why be distracted by the collateral damage? And anyway, why not think about why the people doing the looting are doing that? Nobody ends up doing that in a healthy society, it's because society is unequal and they're dealt a bad hand, it's not people that have a comfortable and opportunity-filled life that are out there doing this stuff."

They said: "Why don't they just work hard and improve their lot. Why don't they just like a frugal life, we have to a certain extent, so why can't they? They need to want less material goods, save up, work hard".

So basically they're repeating the "Pull up the bootstraps" bollocks in different words.

It's difficult for me to get them to understand the problem. They think it's a problem solvable by Black people (and poor, marginalised people in general) just keeping their heads down, working hard and being good boys and girls. They don't get it. They don't get why that is wrong, why that will just end up with people living poor and struggling their whole lives through no fault of their own, why that will continue to lead to cops killing black people.

It's a fucking miracle that I have the progressive and idealistic views I do considering my parents have such Conservative, Right Wing views.

Weird thing is they aren't even Right Wing when it comes to their political affiliations, they vote anti-Brexit, they vote Labour, they support anti-Erdogan party, but their reaction to this protest is to take the side of the police, while also saying the police were wrong to kill the innocent black man. They just can't comprehend or have the lucidity to understand what I'm trying to say, to understand what Institutional Racism is, to understand why people are fed up, why protests are virtuous.

I basically ended up saying "Our lives are too comfortable, too materially fulfilled for you guys to comprehend any of this".

I've read so many threads on Era and Reddit in the past of people having arguments and political differences with their parents, and I always thought: "I feel sorry for these people, I get on with my parents so well". And I do I really do have a good relationship with them, we regularly joke and laugh, we are more like friends than I see most parent-son relationships being, but this is the first time I've had a heated political debate with them and it turns out we are polar opposites in views.

How can people like my parents have such cynical and narrow mindsets? "Things will never change, so what's the point". What the fuck? That's complicity with the toxic status quo by inaction. They don't understand that Humans can promote Progressive ideals, that those Progressive ideals can spread through Humanity like a Meme Disease and Human society can change for the better. All through taking Action, and not letting the State Monopoly of Violence coerce us to remain subjugated.

It's like they have a Stockholm Syndrome towards the concept of The State.

They have that typical Turkish disease of being resigned to fate and obedience to authority. You can't break fate and you must obey the authorities.

Just yesterday we sat around the TV in awe at a space rocket launch and then a few hours later watched in awe outside as the Space Station flew by in the sky. Today they talk about how "Things will never change". How the fuck are Humans in space then?

One thing I reflected upon and I'm scared about is potentially becoming like them when I'm their age. But I don't think I will. I don't think they ever had the ideals and views I have when they were my age, they're not readers, not rational thinkers and they are apolitical and apathetic. They are the typical "Silent Majority" that take in pride in "Just getting on with our lives".

I really hope the trope of "Left wingers become Right Wingers when they age" won't happen to me, I'd like to think it doesn't, but man. My parents freaked me the hell out today.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Changing society is hard work and literally always comes with growing pains, so a lot of people would rather just prolong the status quo rather than put in an effort because it's simply easier for them

 

[Kyra]

Thats unfortunate. I hope that I never get tired of fighting and I often think about it as well but, all i can do is do what Ii htink is right at this moment and bring as many people along wih me. Ive cut ties with many family member because of where they land on the political spectrum and I'll never look back, I'm not saying to do this i'm just saying some people just have to be left behind in order to move forward.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

Being able to shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" because the issue doesn't effect you is the ultimate in white privilege.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

The cliche of people becoming conservative as they get older is greatly exaggerated. I believe various studies have found that most people's political and social views are stable through their lives - and if anything, they slowly become more progressive and open-minded if they are exposed to an expanding and progressing society.

What really happens is that society changes and evolves around people, leaving them behind. A person who was "moderate" in their youth looks "conservative" by the time they are 50 without actually shifting their views.

Being able to shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" because the issue doesn't effect you is the ultimate in white privilege.

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These are also the first people to cry "why didn't anyone do something about this?" when shit finally starts to affect them.

 

[bionic77]

Being able to shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" because the issue doesn't effect you is the ultimate in white privilege.

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I don't think thats just white people.

If things are going well for you, many if not most people in that situation are going to be opposed to change.

Not saying its right (it is not), but thats human nature.

I am not sure what the solution is to get these people to care. In general it is tough to make most people empathic.

 

[Jag]

When you have worked your entire lives to provide a stable foundation for your family, it can be hard for them to see the violence and anger and think it is effective. They had to put their heads down and sweat through a system to provide for you, so they think anyone should be able to do the same. They just don't want to accept the reality that people are being murdered just for existing. It's not an easy thing to accept living in your own little bubble.

 

[GamerJM]

I actually agree that things probably won't change in any meaningful way even with riots this radical, but people might as well try. The only thing we really have to lose is replaceable property.

I think that in order for police as a systemic structure to be abolished completely (not reformed, which won't actually solve our problems), we'd need to come to a general consensus among a much larger contingent of society that cops are an inherently racist and oppressive systemic structure, and have a movement from that consensus that's a lot bigger and more radical than what we're seeing right now. I realize this is extremely pessimistic but I don't see an endgame here that results in the structural problems being solved. But again, people might as well try and do whatever we have the power to do.

The cliche of people becoming conservative as they get older is greatly exaggerated. I believe various studies have found that most people's political and social views are stable through their lives - and if anything, they slowly become more progressive and open-minded if they are exposed to an expanding and progressing society.

What really happens is that society changes and evolves around people, leaving them behind. A person who was "moderate" in their youth looks "conservative" by the time they are 50 without actually shifting their views.



These are also the first people to cry "why didn't anyone do something about this?" when shit finally starts to affect them.

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Another thing that's worth noting is that progressive are often from a lower socioeconomic class and are more likely to die at a younger age due to lack of healthcare, among other things.

 

[Davilmar]

My parents and family are Black, and share the same apathy.

 

[Palocca]

Privilege is unseen and we have a tendency to assume that everyone experiences life in a similar fashion. It's reinforced by the fact that we also gravitate towards those that look, think, and speak the way we do. If I and my social circles were able to make it, what's wrong with these people on the TV?

That assumption cannot be further from the truth. We may be "created equal", but the moment we are born into this world, there are systemic advantages/disadvantages placed on you based on things that are completely out of your control (race, wealth, location, etc.)

Perhaps you can talk to your parents about their struggles; the times they had felt marginalized, ostracized, and/or criticized by someone else. Ask them how shitty that one time must've felt to them. Then tell them that's how it could feel every single time you step outside your home as a Black person in America.

 

[jay]

It's not very comforting, but I kind of took my philosophy from Camus. I think good will always lose but cannot stop fighting. Sisyphus and all that.

 

[CanUKlehead]

My parents and family are Black, and share the same apathy.

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My 60+ year-old POC parents also share this, though they have enough reverence to their religion that adds that extra jolt of right-wing authoritarianism in them.

Pretty sure my dad thinks all politicians only try to do the right things and that if people hated their government, voting is the only way to say anything, so why protest.

I avoid religion and politics conversatios with my father now, though he knows how I feel and has stopped sending me religious stuff on emails.

 

[ZackieChan]

Your right wing conservative parents are not "moderates". Not sure I understand why that's in the title. Also, can't reasonable people disagree about the efficacy of protests like this? There have been plenty in the past that haven't resulted in meaningful change, so there's not hard and fast rule that they are the way to go.

 

[Davilmar]

My 60+ year-old POC parents also share this, though they have enough reverence to their religion that adds that extra jolt of right-wing authoritarianism in them.

Pretty sure my dad thinks all politicians only try to do the right things and that if people hated their government, voting is the only way to say anything, so why protest.

I avoid religion and politics conversatios with my father now, though he knows how I feel and has stopped sending me religious stuff on emails.

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That's an interesting dynamic, and my parents are immigrants. Their country is largely religious, but they also have a long history of discrimination and abuse from colonialists, so that bleeds easily into politics. My mom is religious, but is largely liberal along with my father (lapsed Catholic). Both of them have limited hope since they've lived along enough to see how bad racial tensions are, and despite progress, seeing how flimsy and fragile racial equity and respect is among different races. To say nothing of law enforcement, and the perpetuation of violence in this country. I know well enough that if I live long enough and actually want children, it will not be in the United States.

 

[CanUKlehead]

That's an interesting dynamic, and my parents are immigrants. Their country is largely religious, but they also have a long history of discrimination and abuse from colonialists, so that bleeds easily into politics. My mom is religious, but is largely liberal along with my father (lapsed Catholic). Both of them have limited hope since they've lived along enough to see how bad racial tensions are, and despite progress, seeing how flimsy and fragile racial equity and respect is among different races. To say nothing of law enforcement, and the perpetuation of violence in this country. I know well enough that if I live long enough and actually want children, it will not be in the United States.

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My parents are immigrants too (hell, I am, but I was just 10 years old when we upped and moved). It baffles me that my father's instinctive feelings about law and order and tradition supersede any sympathy for fellow immigrants (illegal immigrants) specifically, like he forgets how easy it was for him to leave his country cause his sister happened to get a job and sponsored him. He concedes pretty quickly, mind, after reminding him all that, but just so strange someone who lived through his dictatorship denies that Ferdinando Marcos could do anything illegal to his countrymen, and took this response to the pandemic to realise how big a shite bag Trump is.

 

[bananab]

I'm 40 and am just really tired. The most motivated I felt was for Bernie. I definitely feel a lot of hopelessness like nothing meaningful will happen in my lifetime. It's hard to keep up that energy when you get older.

 

[Deleted member 4452]

Your right wing conservative parents are not "moderates".

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I'd argue that being more upset at the looting than police brutality while paying some milquetoast lip service that the killing was bad is as 'moderate' as it gets.

 

[T0M]

Change is hard and people are slow.

Rights for African Americans didn't get to where they are now in a day. They had to fight for them, inch by bloody inch.

 

[Deleted member 5359]

Sounds like they were privileged their entire lives.

 

[platocplx]

This is why drastic change doesn't happen until damn near everything is on fire. People struggle seeing beyond themsleves until shit cannot be avoided.

 

[Kernel]

How can people like my parents have such cynical and narrow mindsets? "Things will never change, so what's the point". What the fuck? That's complicity with the toxic status quo by inaction. They don't understand that Humans can promote Progressive ideals, that those Progressive ideals can spread through Humanity like a Meme Disease and Human society can change for the better. All through taking Action, and not letting the State Monopoly of Violence coerce us to remain subjugated.

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My parents are similar.

They basically believe in hierarchy and don't think a fair society is really possible. Be happy with what you can get.

I suspect they see progressives as trying to displace them, "if they win, we lose".

 

[Davilmar]

My parents are immigrants too (hell, I am, but I was just 10 years old when we upped and moved). It baffles me that my father's instinctive feelings about law and order and tradition supersede any sympathy for fellow immigrants (illegal immigrants) specifically, like he forgets how easy it was for him to leave his country cause his sister happened to get a job and sponsored him. He concedes pretty quickly, mind, after reminding him all that, but just so strange someone who lived through his dictatorship denies that Ferdinando Marcos could do anything illegal to his countrymen, and took this response to the pandemic to realise how big a shite bag Trump is.

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This is common especially immigrants coming from a more conservative society that either had dictatorships (my parents and entire family), or had highly rigid and patriarchal societies that placed emphasis on "law and order" along with submission and obedience. Among my Latino relatives, sympathy for immigrants is more a mark of a lack of empathy for fellow human beings and prejudice against those "other" immigrants. This is unfortunately something not limited to White Americans, but we see this among people in general. My same father who can be largely tolerant of people had no problem with the military shooting protestors in the old country, which made me do a turn.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Your right wing conservative parents are not "moderates". Not sure I understand why that's in the title. Also, can't reasonable people disagree about the efficacy of protests like this? There have been plenty in the past that haven't resulted in meaningful change, so there's not hard and fast rule that they are the way to go.

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One of the most significant leaps in LGBTQ+ advancement was the Stonewall riots. America as a nation only exists due to a massive revolution that wasn't peaceful and that historically involved property damage. If someone wants to disagree they can disagree but the reason the "This is not the way" sect gets push back so often is because overwhelmingly it's said by people who don't and/or never have had an interest in truly fighting against the status quo or an oppressive system. It's too often said by people who, rather than being interested in actual critique of effective or ineffective protest, are simply only interested in silencing/ignoring the descent and rage of the disenfranchised for the sake of their own personal comfort.

There are multiple sources that took the temperature of White America during the Civil Rights era nd the common thread is the same "I feel for the blacks but their protests, marches, etc. are detrimental/not effective and they need to just be more peaceful if they want equality". And on the heels of those sentiments MLK, the same figure being bandied about even now to tut tut black unrest, was killed in cold blood. When you consider that history then it's no wonder why minorities and marginalized groups in general today are not quick to adopt the idea that there is any peaceful ideal for gaining their humanity and why they resort to violence to combat the violence of their oppressors. If there is no guaranteed right way, then people will try any way available especially because their lives are on the line in this fight.

This is without even going into how this isn't the only form of protest black peoples have done. Before Floyd there was always peaceful protest for one injustice or another. Black people have been voting, rallying, public speaking, creating art; we've been using an uncountable number of peaceful avenues for the sake of gaining our humanity since before the Civil Rights era and into the modern day. The wealth of victims from the list of wrongful deaths from police brutality BLM has focused on have had outrage and pleads for change that weren't or didn't start as riots or even massive protests. And that's just police brutality and not the hundreds of other arenas Black Americans have been disenfranchised in. But those rarely get mainstream news or attention from the average American or if they do, even then they get called too radical and inappropriate (ex. Colin Kaepernick). People like OP's parents like to act like black peoples have been quiet and just chose to randomly suddenly outburst but we've been trying to have White America hear our voices constantly for generations. The fight for equality is the background noise of African American life. So what's the excuse then if we still have yet to advance despite our unending efforts?

 

[randompasserby]

I basically ended up saying "Our lives are too comfortable, too materially fulfilled for you guys to comprehend any of this".

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I think you hit the nail on the head here.
For people that actually lived the struggle their whole lives, apathy and cynicism to not even try anymore is the ultimate luxury.

 

[Karateka]

Another thing that's worth noting is that progressive are often from a lower socioeconomic class and are more likely to die at a younger age due to lack of healthcare, among other things.

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Is there truth to this because I've always seen progressives on average far more educated than conservatives

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I feel like the opposite mindset is worse: the conviction that progress is inevitable without putting forth any effort to actually achieve it.

 

[S-Wind]

OP: HOLY SHIT! What you wrote is virtually word for word an apt description of so very many Asian parents worldwide

 

[Mekanos]

Most revolutions are carried by the young, the poor, the marginalized, and the desperate. Older people who worked hard to have a comfortable life are going to have a difficult time sympathizing. If everything stayed the same the way the old people of each era wanted/predicted, then history would never change.

 

[Rendering...]

If defeatists aren't swayed by the many examples revolutionary change in history, then forget them. They have nothing of note to say. We know where they fit in the cyclical pattern of social development: on the sidelines with all the other naysayers who were proven wrong.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

I mean I appreciate the thread and the context but also your family nor you are actually from the place where this is all happening so of course they don't really get it or think about bootstraps.

Why would some middle aged English people know about the struggled black Americans face?

What did your parents think of the London riots?

 

[Batatina]

In the UK in particular there is a culture of apathy, of not "bothering", and also acceptance of the establishment and power of the rich/white. It is something that surprised me greatly coming here. Of course this exists in other countries but countries like Portugal, Spain, France, etc have a powerful history of revolution that is non-existent in the UK.

 

[CanUKlehead]

This is common especially immigrants coming from a more conservative society that either had dictatorships (my parents and entire family), or had highly rigid and patriarchal societies that placed emphasis on "law and order" along with submission and obedience. Among my Latino relatives, sympathy for immigrants is more a mark of a lack of empathy for fellow human beings and prejudice against those "other" immigrants. This is unfortunately something not limited to White Americans, but we see this among people in general. My same father who can be largely tolerant of people had no problem with the military shooting protestors in the old country, which made me do a turn.

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Yeah. I'd say it's "odd", but sort of reminds me of a friend/coworker who used to be a smoker. She hates smokers with a vengeance, and I was surprised; as she had to struggle with getting over the addiction, I thought she would sympathise with them. But nope, her mindset was "I did it, why can't you". My link there with my dad is "I did it right, why can't you?", kinda forgetting how hard and desperate it can be to immigrate elsewhere. Funny enough, no-longer-smoking friend (actually we haven't talked since I changed jobs) immigrated to the UK from the CZ, and she's glad the borders to the EU are closing. Boggles my mind.

(yes, it's not a perfect analogy; my point is I thought someone who go through hardship would sympathise with someone going through the same thing, instead of being high and mighty about their position)

 

[Foffy]

Nothing will change specifically because white moderates exist. They want vapid, feel good, meaningless nationalistic catchphrases to solutions but never want to even dip their toes into the struggle of change.

 

[Plum]

I think it's perfectly fine to be pessimistic, but pessimism is often used as a lazy excuse for apathy by those who only want to justify and sugarcoat their lack of care. I honestly don't know how to get through to those kinds of people, they seem to either 'get it' or they don't. But we still need to try, at least; call that apathy out for what it is instead of coddling it. I'm thankful that my close family, even if they're not 'activists', do care, but there are countless families throughout the world where the same can't really be said at all.

In the UK in particular there is a culture of apathy, of not "bothering", and also acceptance of the establishment and power of the rich/white. It is something that surprised me greatly coming here. Of course this exists in other countries but countries like Portugal, Spain, France, etc have a powerful history of revolution that is non-existent in the UK.

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To shamelessly quote Pink Floyd: "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way."

I honestly haven't found it shocking at all that, a week after we both reached the highest numbers of deaths in Europe and had explicit confirmation that our government is being led by an unelected eugenics-loving right-wing anarchist, that we've just gone back to not really caring all that much. Grenfell burnt and we didn't care, the tories systematically killed disabled people through inhumane and we didn't care, the Prime Minister literally lied to the Queen and we didn't care.

Of course we do care about some things (it's not impossible to be apathetic about everything, after all). Like the colour of the guy who moved in down the road, or the slightly dodgy maths of a coincidentally-black politician, or the way that one guy ate his bacon sandwich, or the time someone called a bigot a bigot. You know, the really important stuff.