Good thing you're here to tell all the LGBT folks they should be happy and not angry!
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This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]
- Thread starter Deleted member 3093
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Good thing you're here to tell all the LGBT folks they should be happy and not angry!
Here you go, be sure to Not Read it now.
I care so little I'm going to go out of my way to make sure you know how little I care. There I said it now you know I don't care
It's pretty easy for mods to track down main accounts when people use burners, don't worry
I always appreciate the reminder that I'm more intelligent than others, since your post shows that you are incapable of critically thinking.
I mean, that's advertising. Cyberpunk is capitalism run amok.
But, like some have said, CDPR (and their benefactors in the Polish gvt) do not have/deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Can someone explain to me why this is a bad image? Genuinely curious. Is it because of an erect penis or the fact that it could be a trans or cross-dressing person?
One thing I'll say is that Fantasy Flight's Android tabletop games, especially Netrunner (RIP), do a great job of creating a neon-lit urban hell filled with trashy and tacky corporate ads, but they do it with a sense of humor that is genuinely funny and clever even when it's icky. Just pointing out that cyberpunk world-building doesn't need to be dehumanizing (to the viewer/reader/player) to make its point in an effective way.
As for this ad...I don't know. The studio hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt.
As for this ad...I don't know. The studio hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt.
Ok I just want to bring a point of view and honestly I am really sorry if this offends anyone here.
First thing I would like to say that I have 0 context and have no idea about this whole "CDP LGBT debate" thing that is going on in the internet/ERA, I already saw some links yesterday in this thread and will try to read them later to understand the context of the criticism.
Second I want to say that Im not gay or trans so maybe - I say maybe because of what Im going to show later in this post - my point of view is completely distorced and Im making assumptions that I shouldnt even be allowed so again sorry if this post offends anyone.
Third even tho I enjoyed The Witcher 3 Im not a CDP fan, and honestly Cyberpunk has yet to show me why I should buy so this has nothing to do with gaming preferences.
With that being said I just want to bring some context to myself before going further in my opinion : as a latin we are educated into a very "macho" culture and with that it´s kinda normal to see a lot of transphobic/gayphobic comments/conversations/actions as something normal, I had the oportunity to live in Canada for almost a year and a half back in the past and this changed my mind a lot I can say that I evolved a lot into this subject and how to deal/respect/accept it in a way I never thought I would before this trip. Coming back to Brazil, a few later, I had the oportunity to work for a energy drink multinational company on their marketing team and with that more and more contact with the LGBT community happened and it just became something natural, helping me even more in this evolution process. Now I work in another company and we have a transgender in our staff. I have a very good relationship with her, she helped me understand even more the LGBT community and a lot of aspects of it. And since we have a really good friendship I feel free to talk with her about any subject in this matter.
Yesterday when I saw this thread and the image on the OP I was wondering myself "ok but whats the problem" and when I came back to thread everybody was like look closer or being more explicit "oh theres a dick" and I kept wondering myself "ok yes, thats a dick I already saw it...whats the problem?".
So I decided to check with my friend what she tought and showed her the image saying that this was in a upcoming videogame title her first reaction was to say "this is beatiful" and then I asked her if that image offended her in any means and she answered me "No, of course not, actually Im happy cause I never thought I would see a trans in a videogame, and the fact they explicit her penis is even more empowering" and I was like : ok so what the fuck is going on ERA cause I cant undersanted ?!
Again keep in mind that as I said I have 0 context on CDP previous statements about the LGBT community or anything related to it, just like my friend so maybe we kinda lost because of it but still it really bugged me how can a trans person could be happy with this image and a lot of users that are not trans are so offended with it ?
First thing I would like to say that I have 0 context and have no idea about this whole "CDP LGBT debate" thing that is going on in the internet/ERA, I already saw some links yesterday in this thread and will try to read them later to understand the context of the criticism.
Second I want to say that Im not gay or trans so maybe - I say maybe because of what Im going to show later in this post - my point of view is completely distorced and Im making assumptions that I shouldnt even be allowed so again sorry if this post offends anyone.
Third even tho I enjoyed The Witcher 3 Im not a CDP fan, and honestly Cyberpunk has yet to show me why I should buy so this has nothing to do with gaming preferences.
With that being said I just want to bring some context to myself before going further in my opinion : as a latin we are educated into a very "macho" culture and with that it´s kinda normal to see a lot of transphobic/gayphobic comments/conversations/actions as something normal, I had the oportunity to live in Canada for almost a year and a half back in the past and this changed my mind a lot I can say that I evolved a lot into this subject and how to deal/respect/accept it in a way I never thought I would before this trip. Coming back to Brazil, a few later, I had the oportunity to work for a energy drink multinational company on their marketing team and with that more and more contact with the LGBT community happened and it just became something natural, helping me even more in this evolution process. Now I work in another company and we have a transgender in our staff. I have a very good relationship with her, she helped me understand even more the LGBT community and a lot of aspects of it. And since we have a really good friendship I feel free to talk with her about any subject in this matter.
Yesterday when I saw this thread and the image on the OP I was wondering myself "ok but whats the problem" and when I came back to thread everybody was like look closer or being more explicit "oh theres a dick" and I kept wondering myself "ok yes, thats a dick I already saw it...whats the problem?".
So I decided to check with my friend what she tought and showed her the image saying that this was in a upcoming videogame title her first reaction was to say "this is beatiful" and then I asked her if that image offended her in any means and she answered me "No, of course not, actually Im happy cause I never thought I would see a trans in a videogame, and the fact they explicit her penis is even more empowering" and I was like : ok so what the fuck is going on ERA cause I cant undersanted ?!
Again keep in mind that as I said I have 0 context on CDP previous statements about the LGBT community or anything related to it, just like my friend so maybe we kinda lost because of it but still it really bugged me how can a trans person could be happy with this image and a lot of users that are not trans are so offended with it ?
Try reading the twitter thread
We're not telepathic and can't send the data directly to your brain you still have to read yourself.
The way this post is worded seems to assume everyone here is american, and that there aren't many social progressives outside of america. I would even go as far as to say that the US is far behind Europe when it comes to many social issues.
What I'm saying is not that there's a problem with discussing Polish culture and its views on trans issues, just that framing the problem in such a US-centered way is somewhat unreasonable.
Speaking from a Cyberpunk POV, sexual identity and even skin color mean next to nothing (racism does of course exist though). It's all about transhumanism via cybernetics and AI and the rich vs the poor.
Dystopian future stuff is usually things have evolved (and/or gotten so bad) no one cares how you dress or what you look like etc. it's very libertarian. You do you. Atleast in a street level. Corp culture may require you to wear a suit etc.
In a Cyberpunk dystopian future I can easily see there being a product that easily changes your sex back and forth or whatever and it be a regular thing some people do. Heck it may be so accepted that everyone tries it. Why not?
Not to say the game makers don't do a good job of representing that but I haven't played the game to really see.
Dystopian future stuff is usually things have evolved (and/or gotten so bad) no one cares how you dress or what you look like etc. it's very libertarian. You do you. Atleast in a street level. Corp culture may require you to wear a suit etc.
In a Cyberpunk dystopian future I can easily see there being a product that easily changes your sex back and forth or whatever and it be a regular thing some people do. Heck it may be so accepted that everyone tries it. Why not?
Not to say the game makers don't do a good job of representing that but I haven't played the game to really see.
For when you want that context:
It's basic image association, the kind very commonly used in advertising.
This would be a positive thing for the LGBT+ community if the person in that image were an actual trans-person instead of a Futa stereotype. It's like saying black people should see blackface as a positive representation.
Ah I see what you mean. I guess the question then is does something like that make sense in a dystopian cyberpunk universe (assuming that it's the same treatment being given to all). And then the second point being, even if it does make sense does it really need to be in there? Especially it its only purpose is filler/to shock and isn't integral to the story.
While the "Manticure" subtext is absolutely questionable, I don't feel as though there is anything inherently wrong with the image itself. On the contrary, it seems to be rather fitting with the asthetic that they are going with for this game.
Also considering that CDPR wants nudity to be front and center to exhibit their vision of transhumanism, I expect to see much worse (or better, depending upon your perspective) examples of what we've seen here in the final release.
"Mature and visceral" is what they are going for, so there are going to be things included that make people uncomfortable. CDPR probably isn't the best company equipped to handle the nuances of societal do's and don'ts judging by past behavior, but as consumers we have the option either consume, protest, or ignore.
Also considering that CDPR wants nudity to be front and center to exhibit their vision of transhumanism, I expect to see much worse (or better, depending upon your perspective) examples of what we've seen here in the final release.
"Mature and visceral" is what they are going for, so there are going to be things included that make people uncomfortable. CDPR probably isn't the best company equipped to handle the nuances of societal do's and don'ts judging by past behavior, but as consumers we have the option either consume, protest, or ignore.
I am not sure that CD Project Red realise what they are doing do they?
It's like they have an idea, but they don't fully understand it.
Kind of feels like they threw this image out there to say "look you are represented see? Doesn't this fix our issue?? " But instead they are just making it worse for themselves.
It's Going to get worse in the actual game when it arrives, I feel if they don't understand the problem they are going with what they feel is correct instead of seeking actual advice from communities they are offending, maybe they even need emergency LGBT courses for all staff if it is not too late.
Can they correct the course of action I do not know maybe it is too late unless they are willing to delay the game or if this is an easy fix, which I doubt since it probably includes months of programming work and it's not just Trans issues.
Now there has also been another thread that has just been put up with yet more issues, see for yourself if you haven't read it yet and make up your own mind.
It's like they have an idea, but they don't fully understand it.
Kind of feels like they threw this image out there to say "look you are represented see? Doesn't this fix our issue?? " But instead they are just making it worse for themselves.
It's Going to get worse in the actual game when it arrives, I feel if they don't understand the problem they are going with what they feel is correct instead of seeking actual advice from communities they are offending, maybe they even need emergency LGBT courses for all staff if it is not too late.
Can they correct the course of action I do not know maybe it is too late unless they are willing to delay the game or if this is an easy fix, which I doubt since it probably includes months of programming work and it's not just Trans issues.
Now there has also been another thread that has just been put up with yet more issues, see for yourself if you haven't read it yet and make up your own mind.
Well if its a Cyberpunk setting it kinda makes sense? The adds in Cyberpunk settings always go for shock value to sell you products, even if the subject at hand is senstive. Its supposed to be ultra capitalist after all. Its also probably a thing that happens in that world, where you can change body parts on a whim.
It does give me pause looking at previous controversies surrounding the company though.
This is pretty much my thought as well.
Content like this image could be "edgy" in the service of portraying a cyberpunk universe. But they could end up trying too hard in that way that "mature" video games tend to try hard.
If the game is developed with a tryhard, edgelord attitude, it will invite creative decisions like using negative stereotypes and fetishization tropes from real life unironically, without understanding them. Not making meaningful contribution to social commentary or "exploration of transhuman themes".
And in this specific case, given the developer's history, it also functions as the perfect cover for individuals to insert negative commentary on purpose.
this should be added to the OP A.By
easily clears up any misunderstanding on why the image is problematic
CDPR is a garbage company and it's disappointing but not surprising to see them continue to clown on marginalized groups.
As a trans woman I've had to make the decision to stop supporting them, no matter how many famous nice guy actors they put in their game.
My boycott isn't going to make even the slightest dent in their sales, but it's worth it to me.
It's so disheartening to see a lot of "this is not offensive" policing and "who cares, I've been waiting for this video game for years", but that's the way this - and many - entertainment industry goes!
As a trans woman I've had to make the decision to stop supporting them, no matter how many famous nice guy actors they put in their game.
My boycott isn't going to make even the slightest dent in their sales, but it's worth it to me.
It's so disheartening to see a lot of "this is not offensive" policing and "who cares, I've been waiting for this video game for years", but that's the way this - and many - entertainment industry goes!
You know what would have made this work? If the ad had been vandalized by a trans person. Some graffiti saying something like "Not your fetish" in the trans flag colors or something would have made authorial intent clear and made the world feel more like a crapsack cyberpunk world where people are fighting back against the shiny corp images being sold to them.
Leaving it shiny and pristine feels like endorsement.
Leaving it shiny and pristine feels like endorsement.
Thanks for dealing with me in an honest and open manner. I'll keep this in mind going forward.
Back on topic, I'm skeptical of CDPR given their history but am hopeful this isn't being played for laughs and is instead indicative of the world of cyberpunk (skeevy corporate ads, body mods, themes of transhumanism)
That goes to my point about AAA developers slipping in harmful shit into their games, whether done maliciously or not. Now, I don't think think Ken Levine would ever say that anti-racists are just as bad as racists, but the game needed enemies for its second half and what's a quick way to do that? Ah, the sudden but inevitable betrayal! It's a well-worn trope, but its implementation into Infinite's narrative undermined much of what it was trying to say before.
edit: The point I made in the other topic apparently, but still.
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This twitter take is incorrect though, I think I saw you posting another tweet by this person yesterday, is this the only trans person you know on twitter? Why are they an authority on anything? The ad in game is world building a post gender world where gender fluidity is fetishized to sell products, you know that thing all of lgbtq+ twitter was making fun of all of last week on twitter when #brands were talking about how progressive they were? This is the cyberpunk equivalent.
I didn't post anything from this person before and they aren't the only transgender person I know.
I'm not supporting this crap. I'm sorry for the artists though. Some character design has been really interesting but this game will surely end up pushing the alt-right hate agenda, and i'm not gonna be part of that.
Maybe you could respond to the actual content of the argument instead of throwing away a trans voice because you've decided they shouldn't be listened to. Like holy fuck, do you not get how insulting this sounds?
I was actaully hoping on (and counting on) customizable / augmented bodies with lots of bionic stuff and body alterations. Sexualized in every way.
Three boobs, multiple dicks, lots of prosthetics, part plastic, part carbon fiber, metal, etc, etc. Everybody can be exactly how they want to be.
In my cyberworld everybody is free who they want to be and there is nothing like homophobia or trans-phobia. Trans-human progression.
But in the light of previous comments by employees i can understand that the approach they are taking doesn't resonate well with people.
Not sure if the company is trying to completely open up the whole gender and sexuality debate or trying to make fun of gender- or identity fluidity.
The history of the company doesn't seem very understanding or truly openminded.
Three boobs, multiple dicks, lots of prosthetics, part plastic, part carbon fiber, metal, etc, etc. Everybody can be exactly how they want to be.
In my cyberworld everybody is free who they want to be and there is nothing like homophobia or trans-phobia. Trans-human progression.
But in the light of previous comments by employees i can understand that the approach they are taking doesn't resonate well with people.
Not sure if the company is trying to completely open up the whole gender and sexuality debate or trying to make fun of gender- or identity fluidity.
The history of the company doesn't seem very understanding or truly openminded.
Like I said, generic cyberpunk naming conventions. Take cyberpunk sounding word and add to random thing to make it cyberpunkier.
I'm not defending anything. My opinion isn't a fact, it's merely my read on it and I'm very open to being proven wrong. All I see are generic naming conventions and a chrome can.
If you believe this is about chromossomes, then CDPR needs to be pressed for a statement. If it's meant to be chromossomes then yes I agree with you about it being shitty.
My last response to you was pretty honest I feel and pokes on your recent point:
If this is bad, or how bad it is, depends on context and intent. Maybe the company behind this ad are portrayed as fuckos in the game etc. blablah. Who knows. Pointless to speculate. What we do know is that there's precedence of CDP making statements that paint the company as one that holds transphobic views. So that's what I'll be assuming is going on here until proven otherwise. They have not exactly earned a benefit of doubt treatment, you know.
I have little faith in the writing of this game in general. From what I've seen and heard it's mostly concerned with wanting to be cool.
I have little faith in the writing of this game in general. From what I've seen and heard it's mostly concerned with wanting to be cool.
The poster reads like a 4channer came up with it to mock gender fluidity while at the same time fetishizing transgendered women.
No matter how any of you want to twist and turn this poster into being somewhat acceptable "in-universe", let me remind you that it was in fact made in our real world, by people who have mocked transgender people on 2 separate occasions, caught a shitstorm for it, and then failed to make up for it / apologize for it in a meaningful way.
No matter how any of you want to twist and turn this poster into being somewhat acceptable "in-universe", let me remind you that it was in fact made in our real world, by people who have mocked transgender people on 2 separate occasions, caught a shitstorm for it, and then failed to make up for it / apologize for it in a meaningful way.
I think you meant to say they are incapable of thinking critically or perhaps of critical thinking.
With the puns in the ad. It definitely does not seem like it's celebratory of trans-ness and seems much more like it's making it the butt of a joke.
Not a good look.
Not a good look.
Is a typical dystopian Cyberpunk setting, trans people wouldn't be an issue. It's all accepted. Gay, straight, Trans, bi, etc. Everyone and every lifestyle is equal under Corp capitalist rule. It's all about the haves and have nots. Money. Everything else is secondary.
US/Europe is still but a fraction of the world. Yes, Progressive social movements exist in every country but very very few have actual momentum. About framing the problem in a US-centered way, yes it can be unreasonable but basic human rights should absolutely be reasonable for every country to adopt. There is no both sides to basic human rights. It will ultimately lead to a united people on earth. So holding the rest of the world to this inclusive standard is logical to me.
I can't see the problem with a tasteless ad in your fictional future cyberpunk world.
People expect everything to be nice and inoffensive?
People expect everything to be nice and inoffensive?
Who is this anonymous person? I don't why it's brought up because it doesn't even explain anything at all.
But what is a transperson in the Cyberpunk universe, or more specifically, would there be a strong trans community/identity? Because in the original tabletop RPG sourcebooks, plastic surgery (aka. biosculpting) is cheap, readily available, and can do pretty much anything. A transwoman can be indistinguishable from a cis-woman if she wants, complete with reshaped bone structure and vocal chords, and a fully functional womb and ovaries. And that wouldn't be a particularly startling surgery when you have people grafting claws and feathers and fully functional shark heads to their bodies. That ad simply depicts a person who, for whatever reason, chooses to give a feminine appearance combined with a giant dick.
So, genuine question: If you want to depict this future where gender fluidity is basically commodified, you just basically shouldn't even do that?
Also, any depiction of truly overt sexualization would be for shock value. This isn't unique to trans people. So to criticize it on that basis, I don't know...
At any rate, if this is the only representation of anything related to LGBT or trans specifically, then that'd be truly shitty. I'm holding out a sliver of hope for that not being the case.
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