Those who loved Zelda 1 in the 80s. Had Tower of Druaga come out at the same time, do you think you could've gotten into it?

[BossDumDrum]

This is just a thought experiment. I've been binging a crap load of NES Works videos lately. (An excellent series documenting NES releases in chronological order.) And I can't help but be fascinated by just how different the NES and Famicom game lineups were as both markets evolved. But one game, particularly, drew my attention, Tower of Druaga on Famicom.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhfX1dzjS_0

The video goes into plenty of detail about the game itself. Still, for the uninformed, ToD is a sort of a Pac-man Action-Adventure, Arcade game where you climb a tower to kill a demon and save the day.

Druaga became a pretty big hit in Japan at the time for a lot of the same reason Zelda became popular. The sense of mystery and communication (or strategy guides) to solve the tower's secrets and find the hidden treasures. And many of these treasures are hidden through bonkers Sierra logic, such as ramming headfirst into certain enemies without your shield, bonking certain walls without visual cues, etc. But hey, kids were willing to put up with that sort of thing back then.

And it seems clear that Druaga had a bit of influence on some of the designs of Zelda 1 regarding combat and secret design. (Especially the Wizzrobes, you can't tell me they aren't just the Druaga wizards reskinned).

But Druaga never came to the West since Namco never published it here (long story). It could've easily been ported with very little need for translation, and it was made a year before Zelda. It could have at least come out in 1987 had it even been considered.

And so my thought experiment is, how do you think you would've reacted as a kid to Druaga in the 80s? What if it had an ad campaign like Zelda 1, touting its mysteries and relying on playground rumors to scout out the dungeons and find every secret in the game?

 

[Taco_Human]

watched the video, this is why I love retro games. What seem like archaic 2d janky messes are actual strategies and secrets that aren't easy to figure out. Just looked it up and there does seem to be two guides up on GameFAQs, but still....the idea of people collectively figuring stuff out is nice to see

 

[BossDumDrum]

watched the video, this is why I love retro games. What seem like archaic 2d janky messes are actual strategies and secrets that aren't easy to figure out. Just looked it up and there does seem to be two guides up on GameFAQs, but still....the idea of people collectively figuring stuff out is nice to see

Click to shrink...

Some arcades would even have giant notepads near the machines that other players would scribble down secrets for the next player to find.

 

[andymcc]

I definitely would have loved it. I don't think i played it the first time until one of the playstation namco museums and loved it then.

 

[Unicorn]

Proto Demon's Souls I see

 

[andymcc]

Proto Demon's Souls I see

Click to shrink...

if you're not being facetious, it probably no doubt had an influence on him.

 

[FreddeGredde]

It looks like a maze game, very repetitive tiles and limited movement options. It wouldn't scratch the Zelda itch at all, since at least to me, Zelda felt (with a bit of imagination) like a real world you explored and you had no idea what to expect. It was a true adventure and that's what made it so special at the time.

 

[Nolbertos]

Nah, Zelda 1 when I first played it, gave me the sense of total free exploration and wondering which way to go and what do and how to get there. That game doesn't have the curiousity itch that Zelda 1 had. Also finding out the hidden heart containers and rupees made Zelda really fun.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Instead of Zelda? Hell no. But I've played and enjoyed games with similar styles of secrets - I got the best ending in Solomon's Key all on my own!

 

[Deleted member 25606]

if you're not being facetious, it probably no doubt had an influence on him.

Click to shrink...

if your saying Miyazaki from all the interview stuff I have seen and general info on the man he didn't care about or think about video games until shown SoTC as an adult.

 

[andymcc]

if your saying Miyazaki from all the interview stuff I have seen and general info on the man he didn't care about or think about video games until shown SoTC as an adult.

Click to shrink...

That is very surprising to me as there are a lot of conventions shared with classic Japanese RPGs


His first credited game was released around the same time as SOTC?

 

[NilesGottaHaveIt]

I'm oddly fascinated by this game. I first came across it in the PS1 Namco Museum games, and was intrigued by the museum's claims of it being one of the first RPGs and of it's popularity overseas. I didn't understand it and was terrible at it, but the idea of an early arcade game with an ending seemed unique. Namco Museum also had a secret room that was unlocked by doing a Druaga-esque random button combo, so it seemed like this game got a lot more love than the rest of Volume 3. I also love the theme that plays as you are about to begin a level.

I never really got past the first five floors, didn't understand that the treasures were required for progression, and sadly never stumbled upon the jet boots on the second floor that make the game infinitely more playable. I filed the game away in the back of my mind only to think about it again when Nightmare of Druaga on PS2 came out (which I am going to play one of these days!)

When I saw Jeremy Parish's video about the game and he went into it's background in Japan I was reminded of my initial interest into the game, and I started to look up playthroughs on YouTube. I also got a Mister which has a Druaga core. Finally my interest hit it's absolute peak when I was in the Taito HEY arcade in Tokyo a while back and saw a man playing Druaga. It was the first time I'd seen it in an arcade. He was on the 50th floor and he proceeded to march through the game as if he was playing SMB 1-1. It was if he had played it a thousand times. He finished the game, and I finally got to see the ending in person. Immediately after he finished, another gentleman sat down and began his adventure through the game, and I'm sure he made easy work of it as well.

After seeing that I started looking into the treasure requirements on each floor and trying to gauge whether I stand a chance of finishing this game myself one day. Luckily there is a continue code so maybe one day I will do it.

All this to say, if Druaga had come out in the US in the 80s, I probably would have gotten into it, but Zelda is so much more playable and so much less archaic and punishing.

 

[Deleted member 10001]

Namco Museum Vol. 3 was also the first time I played it. My personal record was the 13th floor I believe. Hard game, but indeed incredibily influential. Must say that I'm glad it's on the Namco Museum release for Switch.

 

[Fuzzy]

I did play it as a kid in the 80s because import games were available from a lot of local shops, I didn't like it. It's possible I would've played it more and grew to love it if it was popular with more kids in my area but I loved Zelda from the start even when most of my friends didn't.

 

[emperor bohe]

Never played this game but always knew the name because of the cameo in Xiaoyu's Tekken 3 stage lol

 

[Deleted member 10001]

Never played this game but always knew the name because of the cameo in Xiaoyu's Tekken 3 stage lol

Click to shrink...

That stage itself was based on a real theme park in Tokyo, Namco Wonder Eggs 2 ("2" after renovation). It was closed in 2000, and in it's place currently is an appartment complex.

 

[GarudaSmiles]

That is very surprising to me as there are a lot of conventions shared with classic Japanese RPGs


His first credited game was released around the same time as SOTC?

Click to shrink...

His first game was Armored Core: Last Raven in 2005. The game that initially grabbed his attention was actually Ico. Not Shadow of the Colossus which also came out in 2005, and actually released after Last Raven.

 

[andymcc]

His first game was Armored Core: Last Raven in 2005. The game that initially grabbed his attention was actually Ico. Not Shadow of the Colossus which also came out in 2005, and actually released after Last Raven.

Click to shrink...

That makes more sense!

 

[IrishNinja]

damn, the social aspect of sharing notes in japanese arcades....that's such a cool time capsule. i wonder how many other titles managed something like that.

jeremy parish remains one of the most interesting folks in gaming, love this series

 

[Deleted member 17210]

I'm sure I would have liked it although not as much as Zelda. It's interesting that Intellivision games like AD&D have been cited as inspirations for Druaga. I was enjoying that stuff before the NES.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

His first game was Armored Core: Last Raven in 2005. The game that initially grabbed his attention was actually Ico. Not Shadow of the Colossus which also came out in 2005, and actually released after Last Raven.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the correction, I would have just gone on to think I'd misread or misattributed the quote instead of realizing it was just a different (but not far off must be where I got it mixed up) game.

 

[GarudaSmiles]

Thanks for the correction, I would have just gone on to think I'd misread or misattributed the quote instead of realizing it was just a different (but not far off must be where I got it mixed up) game.

Click to shrink...

I actually thought it was Shadow of the Colossus at first thought too. Then I remembered it was Ico. I guess because he praised Fumito Ueda in the interview, and he's mostly commonly associated with Shadow of the Colossus it kind of creates a mandala effect.

 

[skeezx]

i'd rather eat bark off a tree than play tower of druaga.

though if it was 1986... maaaybe. but probably not

 

[Truner]

I probably would've hated The Tower of Druaga as a kid, but I've been playing a lot of Namco arcade games recently and I absolutely loved my time with the game!

The Quest of Ki is also fantastic and I can't wait to try out the PS1 exclusive extra towers. Tho The Legend of Zelda still remains the king for me, closely followed by the original Xanadu.

 

[andymcc]

damn, the social aspect of sharing notes in japanese arcades....that's such a cool time capsule. i wonder how many other titles managed something like that.

jeremy parish remains one of the most interesting folks in gaming, love this series

Click to shrink...

I think Namco actually left blank password sheets to leave near machines for The Return of Ishtar, one of the Druaga sequels.


View: https://twitter.com/ohfivepro/status/1572615114133737472

Hamster replicated the password sheets or the ACA release of the game recently

 

[EntelechyFuff]

I don't think I would've liked it much...I've always wanted to be down with it because I was aware of it's status as a minor phenomenon in Japan, but I think the big issue that pushes me away is that the secrets/exploration/discovery is actually down to luck/nonsense.

Zelda had discovery and puzzles in it, but the game itself gave you all of the tools to solve them. Druaga was more arbitrary which just puts me off as a concept.

 

[andymcc]

I don't think I would've liked it much...I've always wanted to be down with it because I was aware of it's status as a minor phenomenon in Japan, but I think the big issue that pushes me away is that the secrets/exploration/discovery is actually down to luck/nonsense.

Zelda had discovery and puzzles in it, but the game itself gave you all of the tools to solve them. Druaga was more arbitrary which just puts me off as a concept.

Click to shrink...

Zelda 1 doesn't always have very defined "bomb" walls does it? Also has lots of arbitrary solutions to puzzles (burning tree anyone?). It may be a little more penetrable than Druaga, but it's more labyrinthine elements are tolerated more than other games because it was a formative title in the west for a lot of gamers in the 80s.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

Zelda 1 doesn't always have very defined "bomb" walls does it? Also has lots of arbitrary solutions to puzzles (burning tree anyone?). It may be a little more penetrable than Druaga, but it's more labyrinthine elements are tolerated more than other games because it was a formative title in the west for a lot of gamers in the 80s.

Click to shrink...

Bombs I forgive (I also played Neutopia which did the same thing) because bombing 3 or fewer walls in each room was easy enough to do, if a bit repetitive.

The burning bush I'll give you, but IIRC there was an old man who gives a hint about it. Also, at least once you burn the first bush, you realize that any bush may theoretically be burned. There's an internal logic there.

Druaga on the other hand gets way deep into the "stand on tile A:23 and hold your sword out to the left for 3 seconds" early and doesn't let up. I'm not a big fan of that.

 

[andymcc]

Bombs I forgive (I also played Neutopia which did the same thing) because bombing 3 or fewer walls in each room was easy enough to do, if a bit repetitive.

The burning bush I'll give you, but IIRC there was an old man who gives a hint about it. Also, at least once you burn the first bush, you realize that any bush may theoretically be burned. There's an internal logic there.

Click to shrink...

the first point, i think it's fine in dungeons but less fine in the world map.

to the second point, i kind of remember the hint being one of the variety that probably lodged a lot of 900 support calls in the 80s lol

i don't disagree that Druaga is pretty esoteric with its logic and what it wants from the player, I just think the game was hugely influential to the point where a lot of Japanese games copied what worked and made it less obtuse (esp. games designed for home console).

 

[Palazzo]

Zelda 1 doesn't always have very defined "bomb" walls does it? Also has lots of arbitrary solutions to puzzles (burning tree anyone?). It may be a little more penetrable than Druaga, but it's more labyrinthine elements are tolerated more than other games because it was a formative title in the west for a lot of gamers in the 80s.

Click to shrink...

I don't know, I think Zelda 1's first quest, at least, is entirely reasonable. The one tree you need to burn on the overworld for progress is very clearly telegraphed and obvious, and the one overworld wall you need to bomb is, too. The only things you probably wouldn't find on your own are the optional heart container caves, which aren't essential.

Can't speak for Druaga (I haven't played it, something I need to rectify), but it does sound like progress in that is a lot more dependent on outside information. Though since that's a game made to be played in public with other people, I wouldn't judge it by the same standard anyway.

 

[andymcc]

I don't know, I think Zelda 1's first quest, at least, is entirely reasonable. The one tree you need to burn on the overworld for progress is very clearly telegraphed and obvious, and the one overworld wall you need to bomb is, too. The only things you probably wouldn't find on your own are the optional heart container caves, which aren't essential.

Click to shrink...

I used to run through the game pretty often but haven't in a few years, so my memory probably isn't what it used to be, plus I can't ever play it "fresh" as I've literally played the game since the 80s lol.

I know the Dark Souls comparisons are tired nowadays, but the communal arcade notes are kind of similar to the (sometimes/rarely lol) useful messages left by players in those games. I wouldn't know to roll through a lot of the gimmick walls in Elden Ring if not for my group chats lol

 

[BossDumDrum]

Bombs I forgive (I also played Neutopia which did the same thing) because bombing 3 or fewer walls in each room was easy enough to do, if a bit repetitive.

The burning bush I'll give you, but IIRC there was an old man who gives a hint about it. Also, at least once you burn the first bush, you realize that any bush may theoretically be burned. There's an internal logic there.

Druaga on the other hand gets way deep into the "stand on tile A:23 and hold your sword out to the left for 3 seconds" early and doesn't let up. I'm not a big fan of that.

Click to shrink...

I mean, that at least seems similar to Zelda in that its an action that can be replicated and shared by other players, or through strategy guides. Some of these secrets do seem to embody the idea of going to your friends on the playground for answers.

Instead of Zelda? Hell no. But I've played and enjoyed games with similar styles of secrets - I got the best ending in Solomon's Key all on my own!

Click to shrink...

Sheesh. I played through the gameboy remake of Solomon's Key and it took me months to even get close to the best ending of the game.

 

[xir]

Honestly, the connection between Zelda one and TOD is interesting and made me realize that if you look at Zelda as an arcade game, each screen is like an arcade stage that happen tl
Have mass continuity

 

[Deleted member 17210]

The interesting thing about NES game hype in retrospect is how spread out it was compared to many big releases now with more day one purchasing. Like, Zelda was talked about in 1987 but most gamers didn't own the hardware until 1988 or later. From my memory, Nintendo still aired Zelda 1 commercials on TV even after Zelda II was out.

 

[andymcc]

The interesting thing about NES game hype in retrospect is how spread out it was compared to many big releases now with more day one purchasing. Like, Zelda was talked about in 1987 but most gamers didn't own the hardware until 1988 or later. From my memory, Nintendo still aired Zelda 1 commercials on TV even after Zelda II was out.

Click to shrink...

I remember getting the Nintendo Cereal System (and maybe seeing commercials for it??) and they featured SMB1 and LoZ1 when both of their sequels were out/imminently released.

 

[steejee]

I'm sure I would have liked it but LoZ 1 and 2 had that exploration/open world aspect that set them apart.

 

[YohraUtopia]

Interesting game to be sure but vs. Zelda 1? Not a chance. And I say that as someone who when Zelda came out, had already played tons of text-based adventures, ascii based dungeon crawlers, arcade games, and proper graphics based RPGs like Ultima. Zelda was the complete package (the music alone was breathtaking at the time).

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

Druaga, while a very neat game, shares some basic DNA with the earlier generation of arcade games. Zelda, in North America at least, fit very well with the vibe that the NES was a really new generation of video games and they were doing stuff games hadn't done before. People playing games on personal computers might've recognized more complex adventure games like Ultima I - IV, but Zelda really blew away those only playing games in arcades or on consoles.

 

[The Riot Inside]

Based on the video, probably not. It doesn't give me the same sense of grand adventure that Zelda did. Also, combat looks weird. I could be wrong but it reminds me of Hydlide where you have to run into enemies to damage them and I always found it wonky since I couldn't tell if I was actually doing anything.

 

[Duane]

Yeah, I would have loved it, but no... Legend of Zelda is absolutely sacred to me. It's the King of Games. I was 10 an it changed games and media in general for me - nothing else measured up to it, and in some ways very little has since.

 

[Deleted member 17210]

People playing games on personal computers might've recognized more complex adventure games like Ultima I - IV, but Zelda really blew away those only playing games in arcades or on consoles.

Click to shrink...

It's true that computer gamers were used to complex quests for turn-based RPGs and text adventures. But there wasn't much for overhead action-adventures that resembled Zelda at the time. I loved Gateway to Apshai but that was more of a dungeon crawler.

 

[BossDumDrum]

Druaga, while a very neat game, shares some basic DNA with the earlier generation of arcade games. Zelda, in North America at least, fit very well with the vibe that the NES was a really new generation of video games and they were doing stuff games hadn't done before. People playing games on personal computers might've recognized more complex adventure games like Ultima I - IV, but Zelda really blew away those only playing games in arcades or on consoles.

Click to shrink...

I think that quality does make sense. The original arcade game came out in 1984, so it was born during the time of very simple releases. Wheras by the time Zelda 1 came to the states, games inspired by it had already been circulating in the states. Stuff like Gauntlet was basically like Druaga but enhanced.

The biggest thing the disc system trio had going for them over Druaga is that they featured very advanced sprawling adventures for their time period, and were each taking lessons from the rising RPG craze of the mid-80s Japan, which Druaga helped inspired.

Maybe had it been released in 1986 close to when the black-boxes were still in print the game could've been seen as revolutionary on NES.

 

[Fatal Nutritionist]

I put Druaga on the same platform as Hydlide, Japans early arcades were different than the US so a game like Druga would be a big release despite being a mediocre game..

Druaga has way too many problems and that's not including the secrets people complain about. It's success and sequels were only possible because of when it was released. it wouldn't stand a chance if it released with games 1 or 2 years later.

The PC Engine version of the game wouldn't stand a chance either. The password system would make the game more playable however.

One thing the game does have that's positive is the music and presentation, the presentation is epic.

games inspired by it had already been circulating in the states. Stuff like Gauntlet was basically like Druaga but enhanced.

Click to shrink...

Are you implying that Gauntlet was inspired by Druaga?

 

[BossDumDrum]

Are you implying that Gauntlet was inspired by Druaga?

Click to shrink...

No. I was just trying to say Gauntlet does a lot of what Druaga did. It was a bit more like a more modernized take on it for the time. Of course, no it wasn't inspired by it because I doubt American Devs were focused on arcade hits that were only in Japan.

Plus, if you didn't cut off my whole sentence, you see I was making the comparison because Gauntlet was for Americans that sprawling arcade dungeon crawl.

 

[Fatal Nutritionist]

No. I was just trying to say Gauntlet does a lot of what Druaga did. It was a bit more like a more modernized take on it for the time. Of course, no it wasn't inspired by it because I doubt American Devs were focused on arcade hits that were only in Japan.

Plus, if you didn't cut off my whole sentence, you see I was making the comparison because Gauntlet was for Americans that sprawling arcade dungeon crawl.

Click to shrink...

Actually, Gauntlet released in japan I think 3 months later. I went to look to see if i can find how it did there after you brought it up. Apparently it was the number 1 arcade upright unit beating Space harrier and Hangon at some point: https://onitama.tv/gamemachine/pdf/19860415p.pdf#page=11

Maybe the Japanese did see it as a faster and mechanically modernized version of Druaga with enhanced graphics. Go figure.