Trump walked out of the meeting about shutdown after Pelosi said "No" to the wall yet again

[Durden]

Here's the effortless shade just weaved in.

Click to shrink...

Damn. As sick as that daddy line was, the real shit was that she said that only someone that does not understand financial insecurity would take pride in this position. As fun as throwing shade is, we need people that can truly dissect his bullshit ways in a digestible manner. That's the that real shit. Pelosi is really handling this well.

 

[ultracal31]

I'm convinced the wall isn't and never was about border security and/or foreign policy, Trump literally just wants a massive, gaudy landmark legacy to get himself in the history books because he knows without one he's just another president who barely accomplished anything. Tantrums like this really make that show.

Click to shrink...

Nah man

He just wants that money to line his pocket via shell companies

 

[Alucrid]

One of the things I'm worried about with rhetoric like this is that there are points where talking about both sides is totally legitimate. Both the GOP and the Dems' positions on Israel-Palestine for example. This community hardly needs more buzz word, stripped of any sort of the actual thought behind what made the buzz words a thing in the first place, to go after people.

You may agree with me that the Israel-Palestine issue is different, but I guarantee you many people here wouldn't see it that way.

Click to shrink...

but that's not an issue of both sides if they're both on the same side?

 

[Commedieu]

I work with someone who is extremely intelligent. I mean I am regularly impressed by things he is able to do. I've known him for over 15 years. He is a good person at heart, grew up poor, became immensely successful and is a Republican.

He told me today that the Democrats bear equal responsibility for the government shutdown. I almost lost my mind. Even smart people are too emotionally invested to see what is happening.

He also thinks Trump isn't a racist, just an elitist. It's infuriating.

Click to shrink...

Ben carson is a neural surgeon...

Checkmate.

 

[AlteredBeast]

I work with someone who is extremely intelligent. I mean I am regularly impressed by things he is able to do. I've known him for over 15 years. He is a good person at heart, grew up poor, became immensely successful and is a Republican.

He told me today that the Democrats bear equal responsibility for the government shutdown. I almost lost my mind. Even smart people are too emotionally invested to see what is happening.

He also thinks Trump isn't a racist, just an elitist. It's infuriating.

Click to shrink...

Intelligence and knowing things is two different things. In reality, he is a fuckface. Republican policies actively hard the economic and emotional health of the country. No matter how "smart" you are, if you support that, you are an idiot or motivated by the most base greed ever.

 

[Deleted member 2802]

I'm convinced the wall isn't and never was about border security and/or foreign policy, Trump literally just wants a massive, gaudy landmark legacy to get himself in the history books because he knows without one he's just another president who barely accomplished anything. Tantrums like this really make that show.

Click to shrink...

It's neither. It was a mneumonic device created by his campaign people used at his rallies to remember to talk about immigration policy.

 

[stew]

This is glorious! What a snowflake! He really thought he could make Pelosi cave? Really? He just humiliated himself two times in two days.

 

[Mechanized]

Also, the both sides shit doesn't hold any water when you take not that Trump already accepted full responsibility for this debacle before it even started.. and even said the he will not blame the democrats.

He said he would own it, and now he is, whether he now wants to or not.

Click to shrink...

Reality doesn't really matter to Trump, I could easily see the dipshit blaming Democrats for the shutdown under the guise of border security.

 

[mescalineeyes]

One of the things I'm worried about with rhetoric like this is that there are points where talking about both sides is totally legitimate. Both the GOP and the Dems' positions on Israel-Palestine for example. This community hardly needs more buzz word, stripped of any sort of the actual thought behind what made the buzz words a thing in the first place, to go after people.

You may agree with me that the Israel-Palestine issue is different, but I guarantee you many people here wouldn't see it that way.

Click to shrink...

The both sides thing refers to something very specific and is not really applicable in your example. But yes, i agree with your general sentiment.

 

[Cocaloch]

but that's not an issue of both sides if they're both on the same side?

Click to shrink...

Both sides with respect to the difference between the GOP and the Dems in American politics. I figured that would be obvious, because otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them.

 

[henhowc]

Such a badass.

 

[Surfinn]

Reality doesn't really matter to Trump, I could easily see the dipshit blaming Democrats for the shutdown under the guise of border security.

Click to shrink...

Right but it doesn't matter what he wants or says now, he already owned the shutdown on national TV. That was the context before anything started.

It's on him to get himself out of a pile of shit of his own making

 

[Ponn]

He is a good person at heart, grew up poor, became immensely successful and is a Republican.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't matter what your background is. Let's say the Republican motto all together now

"Fuck you. I got mine."

And people always try to reason why their idols or the people they vote for aren't really bad or racists. Because if they don't, that means they are a bad person and we can't have that can we.

 

[LGHT_TRSN]

Why does he say mexico is paying for it indirectly through the trade deals? Thats not the same as paying for it. Money gained through a trade deal is now the US's money to do with as they please. If the US then uses that money for the wall doesnt that mean thay the US is paying for it?

Click to shrink...

Money gained through the trade deal goes to whatever companies are benefiting from the trade deal. It's not like private profits just go into a slush fund for the government to use however it wants.

 

[Alucrid]

Both sides with respect to the difference between the GOP and the Dems in American politics. I figured that would be obvious, because otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them.

Click to shrink...

ok but you're not using the "both sides" argument in its correct form. the idea is to assign blame to separate groups despite said groups having disparate ideologies. where they fall on israel ideologically is largely similar. both sides is always a fallacy, your example is not.

 

[Cocaloch]

The both sides thing refers to something very specific and is not really applicable in your example. But yes, i agree with your general sentiment.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure some people have something specific in mind, but I've seen it used a lot in a very fast and loose way. In general that's why a lot of these arguments boiled down to a gatcha phrase are bad. It transforms things like fallacies from a device with which to analyze thought and argumentation into lame internet argument bludgeons.

Of course that's a more general problem than what's going on here, and this is indeed a case of that original poster being foolish. But the fact that other people will have looser views of the phrase should be a bit of an scratcher when it calls to banning everything that falls under such a vague claim.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

I work with someone who is extremely intelligent. I mean I am regularly impressed by things he is able to do. I've known him for over 15 years. He is a good person at heart, grew up poor, became immensely successful and is a Republican.

He told me today that the Democrats bear equal responsibility for the government shutdown. I almost lost my mind. Even smart people are too emotionally invested to see what is happening.

He also thinks Trump isn't a racist, just an elitist. It's infuriating.

Click to shrink...

It's almost like there are different categories to intelligence. Someone who can't parse social sciences isn't intelligent in that field.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

I'm convinced the wall isn't and never was about border security and/or foreign policy, Trump literally just wants a massive, gaudy landmark legacy to get himself in the history books because he knows without one he's just another president who barely accomplished anything. Tantrums like this really make that show.

Click to shrink...

They could promise him an immediately available $100 billion, and the wall would still never be built. There are still ongoing eminent domain cases from the Bush years. The republican domestic policy is do whatever will "own the libs" and line their and their wealthy friends in the private sectors pockets. This is only about getting a victory over liberals and scaring Boomers into giving them money (ie using last night's adress to raise campaign funds).

 

[mescalineeyes]

I'm sure some people have something specific in mind, but I've seen it used a lot in a very fast and loose way. In general that's why a lot of these arguments boiled down to a gatcha phrase are bad. It transforms things like fallacies from a device with which to analyze thought and argumentation into lame internet argument bludgeons.

Of course that's a more general problem than what's going on here, and this is indeed a case of that original poster being foolish. But the fact that other people will have looser views of the phrase should be a bit of an scratcher when it calls to banning everything that falls under such a vague claim.

Click to shrink...

Bans are not decided by mobs and pitchforks, thankfully :) I 100% fully trust the mods on here to make that distinction.

 

[Colonel Getafe]

I've seen it with the IRA and Irgun, not to mention it being the entirety of one side's part of the conversation with regards to Israel proper, and it hasn't led to bannings so I'm not so sure of this.



People can have a discussion. I can call their post foolish. The mods can chose to ban any of us for any reason. Again, I'm not telling him he can't say what he thinks. I'm not even saying I don't think he should be allowed to say what he thinks.

Either way, it's not like he was calling for a reasoned debate on the matter or that he made any specific points. It was just an assertion.

Click to shrink...

I mean I sort of agree with you anyway, but I'm not sure it's particularly wise to draw comparisons between bombings and murders of civilians and someone moaning about not compromising on the wall.

 

[Waddle Dee]

There's definitely a discussion to be had about "but what if the Democrats are to blame"

If we just ban people who have a dissenting opinion what's even the point?

Click to shrink...

I'm not surprised you're saying dumb shit like this considering you were just recently getting upset that people were calling Trump Jr a "shitbag".

Your posts are transparent af.

 

[onadesertedisland]

The Democrats cannot give even a single concession. Or as others have said, republicans will just use this tactic over and over again. What needs to happen after this shutdown is over is for the budget to get fixed so it cannot be used as a weapon.

 

[Cocaloch]

ok but you're not using the "both sides" argument in its correct form. the idea is to assign blame to separate groups despite said groups having disparate ideologies. where they fall on israel ideologically is largely similar.

Click to shrink...

You're acting like "both sides" has a correct form. It does not in the abstract. I've seen people use it in plenty of situations, and often about the position of political parties. Reducing these down to one platform plank for some vague reason isn't a sensible way to look at things like politics. Now you're right that the sensible critique embodied by the word would be this, but I'm not under the impression something so informal as "both sides" or its cousin "whataboutism" is really dominated by an awareness of the sensible critiques that lay behind the meaningful uses of them. This is again an example of why reducing an argument down to a phrase is often a bad idea. See also the way people name drop formal fallicies willy-nilly.

But if you want another example off the top of my head take sectarian violence in Ireland.

 

[LGHT_TRSN]

Let's see:

Republicans and Democrats pass a bipartisan CR bill to fund the government in the Senate. Trump initially says he will sign it.
Anne Coulter, Rush, etc. chastise Trump for not building the wall.
Trump decides he MUST have wall funding in the CR bill or he won't sign it.

At what point in the lead-up to this shutdown could you argue the Democrats are remotely responsible? Because they won't concede to a child throwing a tantrum?

 

[Christian]

The people who stand up for the right to discuss the "both sides" narrative are the same people whining about the media providing a platform to liars and criminals. They're a symptom of the same disease, but their heads are so far up their own asses with righteous indignation over the mere IDEA of "thought-policing" that they don't see it. It's so disappointing. Be better.

 

[PersonAndStuff]

Any good polls out there that show where the general population lands on this. I have to believe the majority is against Trump on this but I'm sure the crazies are still clinging to him.

 

[Chirotera]

Line in the sand, if the Democrats give one inch on this stupid wall I won't show up in 2020. Loving their response so far!

 

[FliX]

Any good polls out there that show where the general population lands on this. I have to believe the majority is against Trump on this but I'm sure the crazies are still clinging to him.

Click to shrink...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-has-lost-ground-in-the-shutdown-blame-game/

50% Blame Trump, 32% Blame Democrats

Click to shrink...

I think 30% standing behind Trump no matter what is what we have to expect on everything going forward.

 

[Infinity Times Two]

Any good polls out there that show where the general population lands on this. I have to believe the majority is against Trump on this but I'm sure the crazies are still clinging to him.

Click to shrink...

Average 50% blame Trump, 35% congressional democrats.

 

[Cocaloch]

Bans are not decided by mobs and pitchforks, thankfully :) I 100% fully trust the mods on here to make that distinction.

Click to shrink...

I've been banned enough about Israel, once for posting something I literally taught in my Western Civ survey either the day of or day before, and am aware enough that the mods are human to be cautious about this anyway.

 

[Alucrid]

You're acting like "both sides" has a correct form. It does not in the abstract. I've seen people use it in plenty of situations, and often about the position of political parties. Reducing these down to one platform plank for some vague reason isn't a sensible way to look at things like politics. Now you're right that the sensible critique embodied by the word would be this, but I'm not under the impression something so informal as "both sides" or its cousin "whataboutism" is really dominated by an awareness of the sensible critiques that lay behind the meaningful uses of them. This is again an example of why reducing an argument down to a phrase is often a bad idea. See also the way people name drop formal fallicies willy-nilly.

But if you want another example off the top of my head take sectarian violence in Ireland.

Click to shrink...

colloquially, at least to this forum, i would say it has a specific form that it takes. correct was a poor choice of word.

 

[Cocaloch]

The people who stand up for the right to discuss the "both sides" narrative are the same people whining about the media providing a platform to liars and criminals. They're a symptom of the same disease, but their heads are so far up their own asses with righteous indignation over the mere IDEA of "thought-policing" that they don't see it. It's so disappointing. Be better.

Click to shrink...

Am I the same person that has whined about such things. Please point to some evidence that I am.

This is of course ignoring that the two things wouldn't actually be contradictory anyway. You don't have to believe that literally everyone should be able to say literally anything literally everywhere, to be critical of someone calling for a ban. That should be obvious.

I mean I sort of agree with you anyway, but I'm not sure it's particularly wise to draw comparisons between bombings and murders of civilians and someone moaning about not compromising on the wall.

Click to shrink...

But the comparison isn't of content but of rhetorical devices.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

Any good polls out there that show where the general population lands on this. I have to believe the majority is against Trump on this but I'm sure the crazies are still clinging to him.

Click to shrink...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-has-lost-ground-in-the-shutdown-blame-game/

The country is mostly against him on this.

 

[JaseC64]

NPR had a clip of a Republican senator I believe and he said they want a compromise from "both sides".

That they will fund government for boarder security. (wall) and that both want a "win". These Fuckers think this is a game. "oh you get a point, I get one too!! Else no one gets one!!"

They don't want the Dems to "win" by funding the government without their wall. That's their "win scenario" meanwhile the Dems just want to open the damn government.

The other shitty thing is the interview brought up DACA as a thing to boast and incite Dems for their wall. As a DACA recipient I say NO! Don't cave to that shit. We aren't little play things yoy pretend to care. They've had plenty of chances to do the right thing and always have obstructed any passage. Too fucking late. Fuck that.

 

[AndrewDean84]

Through all of this, I can't help but think we haven't seen Pelosi's final form.

 

[Sheepinator]

NPR had a clip of a Republican senator I believe and he said they want a compromise from "both sides".

That they will fund government for boarder security. (wall) and that both want a "win". These Fuckers think this is a game. "oh you get a point, I get one too!! Else no one gets one!!"

They don't want the Dems to "win" by funding the government without their wall. That's their "win scenario" meanwhile the Dems just want to open the damn government.

The other shitty thing is the interview brought up DACA as a thing to boast and incite Dems for their wall. As a DACA recipient I say NO! Don't cave to that shit. We aren't little play things yoy pretend to care. They've had plenty of chances to do the right thing and always have obstructed any passage. Too fucking late. Fuck that.

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 32374]

Average 50% blame Trump, 35% congressional democrats.

Click to shrink...

I wonder about independent s and Dems in battle ground states.

 

[Schlorgan]

This parody account is on point.

 

[Boiled Goose]

Lol.

Hold Democrats.

If anyone asks , show them video of Trump saying it's his fault.

DO NOT GIVE IN. The precedent would be atrocious.

 

[DrewFu]

How long is this going to last.

I don't see Trump ever caving due to personal Ego.

Can he be impeach for holding everyone hostage?

Click to shrink...

What will likely eventually happen is enough GOP will jump aboard a veto-proof bill.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

I'm convinced the wall isn't and never was about border security and/or foreign policy, Trump literally just wants a massive, gaudy landmark legacy to get himself in the history books because he knows without one he's just another president who barely accomplished anything. Tantrums like this really make that show.

Click to shrink...

You know how comedians go to clubs and try out material and they keep the stuff that gets the most applause? The wall was a big applause line at his campaign rallies, so he kept it. He never actually intended to be president, and now that he is, all he actually cares about is more applause.

That's what the wall really is: a thing he wants to be applauded for.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

What will likely eventually happen is enough GOP will jump aboard a veto-proof bill.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, McConnell has to break too. There's no mechanism for forcing legislation onto the Senate floor. McConnell has to bring it.

So there could be a veto-proof majority in the Senate tomorrow and it would do no good as long as Mitch McConnell decides he's sticking to Trump.

 

[Ada]

He's starting to realise that the shutdown is hurting him more and it infuriates him. Completely powerless.

 

[HamSandwich]

Democrats want border security, results in more jobs etc.

Trump wants a stupid fucking wall. How do people support this man.

 

[Pwnz]

Unfortunately, McConnell has to break too. There's no mechanism for forcing legislation onto the Senate floor. McConnell has to bring it.

So there could be a veto-proof majority in the Senate tomorrow and it would do no good as long as Mitch McConnell decides he's sticking to Trump.

Click to shrink...

He will cave as polling for Republicans nosedived. Even a lot of the 30% hardline trumpers will flip if it means they're broke. People remember stuff like this mich longer than other things.

 

[BossAttack]

This parody account is on point.

Click to shrink...

Trump parody accounts never work for me as the man himself is a parody.

 

[Mezentine]

You know how comedians go to clubs and try out material and they keep the stuff that gets the most applause? The wall was a big applause line at his campaign rallies, so he kept it. He never actually intended to be president, and now that he is, all he actually cares about is more applause.

That's what the wall really is: a thing he wants to be applauded for.

Click to shrink...

My read is actually different: underneath all of his fake convictions and lies, he really is a massive racist shitbag and he really does want the wall as a big fuck you to Mexico and Latin America

 

[Colonel Getafe]

But the comparison isn't of content but of rhetorical devices.

Click to shrink...

Normally I'd be bang up for pointing out that this place has an enormous issue with rolling over for groupthink and not being interested in the nuance of major events, but this is not one of those instances and it's going to take one hell of an argument to convince me that anyone willing to bend and fund this wall isn't a total and utter clem.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Did I miss something?

Can someone explain to me why none of this happened in the past 2 years with full Republican power.

Now that the balance of power has come and slightly shifted, the blame is suddenly being put to "both sides"? or "Dems fault" on the right side?

 

[Sheepinator]

I was always impressed with this account. The person built robots to print out a Trump tweet, cut the paper, burn it, place it in the ashtray, film the whole thing and reply to Buffoon with it.