Trying to be more informed about Palestine/Israel

[Ragnarok Flames]

I'm trying to become more informed about the Palestine/Israel (conflict? i dont lknow what word to use here.) and my reading always come back to things along the lines of "if you are anti-israel, then you are an anti-semite"

im just trying to wrap my head around how being 'anti-' a governmental body makes someone an anti-semite.

also because of the pdp thread, i was wanting to learn about the good and bad of the ADL, can anyone point me in some direction?

or some sourced about the relationship between the two areas that you'd recommend.

thanks

 

[Cocolina]

Starter for ten:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic–Jewish_relations

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

Starter for ten:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic–Jewish_relations

Click to shrink...

thanks.

 

[BarcaTheGreat]

If you have the time, please listen to the Martyr Made podcast series on the creation of the state of Israel. It starts by laying out the world where the Jewish people really didn't have any option but to have their own nation (pogrom, and other constant threats faced by the people). But later as it explains the slow foundation of the state, it shows how they, for the purpose of creating the state, started acting a lot like oppressors they escaped and some of them turned to terrorism... Really really good podcast.

http://media.blubrry.com/martyrmade...tent/uploads/powerpress/podcast/Complete1.mp3

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

If you have the time, please listen to the Martyr Made podcast series on the creation of the state of Israel. It starts by laying out the world where the Jewish people really didn't have any option but to have their own nation (pogrom, and other constant threats faced by the people). But later as it explains the slow foundation of the state, it shows how they, for the purpose of creating the state, started acting a lot like oppressors they escaped and some of them turned to terrorism... Really really good podcast.

http://media.blubrry.com/martyrmade...tent/uploads/powerpress/podcast/Complete1.mp3

Click to shrink...

i'll give it a listen, thanks

 

[Jroc]

Being anti-Israel (as in, opposed to the behaviour of the modern country of Israel) doesn't make someone an anti-Semite.

However, there are anti-Semitic groups that sort of masquerade behind an anti-Israel stance. Mostly hardline Islamic types or neighbouring factions that wouldn't give a crap about the Palestinians if they were being oppressed by any other group. Look at that wikipedia page on Islamic-Jewish relations and you'll see there's definitely some bad blood there.

Hence some people point to the "bad faith" anti-Israel movements and use them to handwave all legitimate criticisms of the country. If you think Israel needs to be wiped off the map because Jews are desecrating the holy lands with their filth, then you're probably an anti-Semite. If you think it's fucked up that Israel continues to build settlements in Palestinian territory while publically saying they want peaceful coexistence, then you're 100% NOT an anti-Semite.

EDIT: I personally don't think "anti-Israel" is a good word to use unless you're completely against Israel existing. Semantics yes, but it sounds way more extreme than how most critics probably feel.

 

[Mivey]

EDIT: I personally don't think "anti-Israel" is a good word to use unless you're completely against Israel existing. Semantics yes, but it sounds way more extreme than how most critics probably feel.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I agree. I'm not anti Isreal. I'm sure Israel is a great country, and I hear great things about cities like Tel Aviv. But I'm against any policy that doesn't give all citizens of a state equal rights, and treats them differently based on their faith. I'm against the policies of state that continues to break international law and occupy territory to build illegal settlements there. I'm against Israel destroying all chances for a peaceful solution to this mess, and then bemoaning how the other side doesn't approach them diplomatically.

It's insane how politics and government in Israel is to this day decided on the issue of security, when Israel is the becoming an ever larger oppressor in the region

 

[Jag]

This is an emotionally charged subject and Era may not be the best place to get an unbiased view due to legitimate passion on both sides. But maybe there is. I generally try to stay out of these threads.

my reading always come back to things along the lines of "if you are anti-israel, then you are an anti-semite"

Click to shrink...

This is totally untrue even though it is thoughtlessly thrown around by Israel's defenders. However, there are nuances to anti-Israel rhetoric that can easily transcend into hate speech by echoing anti-Semitic tropes that have been around for centuries as justification for persecution against Jews.

I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the tropes/canards below so you can determine for yourself whether it is legitimate criticism or hate speech.

Antisemitic canard

I will edit to add that for many Jews, Israel is viewed as the last safe bastion in a world that could ultimately see us eliminated. It may sound far fetched, but we have studied the lessons of the Holocaust and the thousands of years of hate that led up to it. Many of our ancestors (mine included) were forced to flee places they had lived for hundreds of years where they were part of the community. There may literally be no place left to go. The occupation in Israel is terrible. The government sucks, just as in the US, but I also believe the country needs to survive for Jews to continue to exist.

 

[MarioLuigi]

This is an emotionally charged subject and Era may not be the best place to get an unbiased view due to legitimate passion on both sides. But maybe there is. I generally try to stay out of these threads.



This is totally untrue even though it is thoughtlessly thrown around by Israel's defenders. However, there are nuances to anti-Israel rhetoric that can easily transcend into hate speech by echoing anti-Semitic tropes that have been around for centuries as justification for persecution against Jews.

I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the tropes/canards below so you can determine for yourself whether it is legitimate criticism or hate speech.

Antisemitic canard

I will edit to add that for many Jews, Israel is viewed as the last safe bastion in a world that could ultimately see us eliminated. It may sound far fetched, but we have studied the lessons of the Holocaust and the thousands of years of hate that led up to it. Many of our ancestors (mine included) were forced to flee places they had lived for hundreds of years where they were part of the community. There may literally be no place left to go. The occupation in Israel is terrible. The government sucks, just as in the US, but I also believe the country needs to survive for Jews to continue to exist.

Click to shrink...

How do you reconcile the creation of Isreal/Zionism "as a safe haven for Jews" with the ethnic cleansing that took place, and is still taking place?

 

[TaySan]

I don't think Era is really great place for this subject as it's incredibly emotional charged on both sides.
I believe us Jews should have a safe haven to exist and i don't believe that's a guarantee if Israel is no more.

But obviously the current government is not helping any matters in regards to peace.

 

[Particle Physicist]

If you have the time, please listen to the Martyr Made podcast series on the creation of the state of Israel. It starts by laying out the world where the Jewish people really didn't have any option but to have their own nation (pogrom, and other constant threats faced by the people). But later as it explains the slow foundation of the state, it shows how they, for the purpose of creating the state, started acting a lot like oppressors they escaped and some of them turned to terrorism... Really really good podcast.

http://media.blubrry.com/martyrmade...tent/uploads/powerpress/podcast/Complete1.mp3

Click to shrink...

How true is this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/martyrmade/comments/5rn0rh/who_is_darryl_cooper/

He's a hard alt-right twitter troll, who openly toes the edge to white nationalism so closely that you can only wonder what kind of opinions he's not so open about. Since the election he has gone balls-to the-wall crazy on culture war type stuff— what started with partisan rants about petty Repubs-vs-Dems political squabbles has evolved into him advocating the literal extermination of the far-left, posting pseudoscience about racialism and links between IQ and race, and even dabbling in some light Nazi apologia and Holocaust revisionism (though not full-on denial, yet).

In his podcasts—including his neoreactionary/traditionalist Decline cast—he presents himself as an informed and nuanced thinker, able to approach issues from multiple angles with a context-heavy, Dan Carlin style tone and style. He does this very well, and earned a fan in me until I discovered his Twitter. Seriously, his based on his Twitter his entire worldview could be summed up as "conservatives = good, liberals = bad, communists = should be executed, white culture = the best, Trump = good mostly because he pisses off liberals."

I don't what could make so obviously intelligent and talented of a person act like such a complete tool, but until/unless he snaps out of the hyperpartisan alt-right culture warrior trance he's fallen into, I don't see how I could listen to his podcasts. How can you trust somebody to present accurate historical facts and have grounded, good-faith philosophical discourse (both of which he supposedly seeks to do in his two podcasts) when they are so obviously beholden to so specific of an agenda?

The sad part is that despite being a fairly radical leftist myself, I found the reactionary traditionalism of Decline of the West very compelling and interesting. Political discourse in this era would certainly be eniched by a sort a sort of right-wing Dan Carlin to participate in the dialectic of ideas. Darryl Cooper could have been that person, but he's let his rage get the better of him and has become a third-rate partisan pundit; an emotional keyboard warrior scarcely a step up in maturity and critical thinking from your average user of 4chan's /pol/. It's a tragedy to see such talent go to waste.

Thanks for hearing out my rant

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[MarioLuigi]

I don't think Era is really great place for this subject as it's incredibly emotional charged on both sides.
I believe us Jews should have a safe haven to exist and i don't believe that's a guarantee if Israel is no more.

But obviously the current government is not helping any matters in regards to peace.

Click to shrink...

Is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians an acceptable "sin" in your eyes for the creation of this "safe haven"? Genuine question....

 

[TaySan]

Is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians an acceptable "sin" in your eyes for the creation of this "safe haven"? Genuine question....

Click to shrink...

No what the current government is doing is obviously not okay, but this land has a claim for both groups and now we have multiple generations of families living there now so there is no turning back without committing atrocities on both sides.

I believe one day we will have a 1 state solution where both groups have equal rights and citizenship, but i won't pretend like i have the answers.

 

[Benjamin]

Is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians an acceptable "sin" in your eyes for the creation of this "safe haven"? Genuine question....

Click to shrink...

Good job proving the user's exact point that this is a highly charged subject and this is a bad place to discuss this by diving in with a passive aggressive loaded question which does not address the actual OP question.

OP, the Israel Palestine issue is the single most complicated political problem in modern history, with roots that go back literally thousands of years. The problem contains multiple degrees of the hardest questions in politics, religion, ethics, race, rights and the human condition.

It's essentially impossible to really come up with a single truth, but if you are really interested really spread your research around. It's a great way to at least learn about the incredible diversity of humans that on the modern map seem to be just two sides who duke it out.

 

[MarioLuigi]

Good job proving the user's exact point that this is a highly charged subject and this is a bad place to discuss this by diving in with a passive aggressive loaded question which does not address the actual OP question.

OP, the Israel Palestine issue is the single most complicated political problem in modern history, with roots that go back literally thousands of years. The problem contains multiple degrees of the hardest questions in politics, religion, ethics, race, rights and the human condition.

It's essentially impossible to really come up with a single truth, but if you are really interested really spread your research around. It's a great way to at least learn about the incredible diversity of humans that on the modern map seem to be just two sides who duke it out.

Click to shrink...

Is it really that complex though?

How can you create a Jewish majority state, in a land that is only 5% Jewish without ethnic cleansing?

Is the creation of Australia and the ethnic cleansing of the aborigines also complex? What about the ethnic cleansing of north America? What makes the creation of Israel any different?

 

[spineduke]

Is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians an acceptable "sin" in your eyes for the creation of this "safe haven"? Genuine question....

Click to shrink...

No, and it says something if people can't answer the question in a straight forward manner.

 

[Jeb]

I don't think Era is really great place for this subject as it's incredibly emotional charged on both sides.
I believe us Jews should have a safe haven to exist and i don't believe that's a guarantee if Israel is no more.

But obviously the current government is not helping any matters in regards to peace.

Click to shrink...

That "Safe Haven" is an ethno state built on the blood, displacement and oppression of the Palestinians.

That safety comes at the cost of others.

I disagree on Era being a bad place for this kind of discussion, a good chunk of posters here have their head straight when regards to the atrocities that is inflicted on the Palestinians.

 

[AGoodODST]

Good job proving the user's exact point that this is a highly charged subject and this is a bad place to discuss this by diving in with a passive aggressive loaded question which does not address the actual OP question.

OP, the Israel Palestine issue is the single most complicated political problem in modern history, with roots that go back literally thousands of years. The problem contains multiple degrees of the hardest questions in politics, religion, ethics, race, rights and the human condition.

It's essentially impossible to really come up with a single truth, but if you are really interested really spread your research around. It's a great way to at least learn about the incredible diversity of humans that on the modern map seem to be just two sides who duke it out.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty hung over so apologies if this comes of harsh but what is this shit?

It isn't complicated at all. What the state of Israel is doing is disgusting and also illegal.

The simple answer is the international community needs to act but for whatever reason they don't and let Israel get away with literal crimes against humanity.

Impossible to come up with a single truth? Lol.

 

[Deleted member 4482]

I don't think Era is really great place for this subject as it's incredibly emotional charged on both sides.
I believe us Jews should have a safe haven to exist and i don't believe that's a guarantee if Israel is no more.

But obviously the current government is not helping any matters in regards to peace.

Click to shrink...

No what the current government is doing is obviously not okay, but this land has a claim for both groups and now we have multiple generations of families living there now so there is no turning back without committing atrocities on both sides.

I believe one day we will have a 1 state solution where both groups have equal rights and citizenship, but i won't pretend like i have the answers.

Click to shrink...

If you can't finish a post without saying "both sides" it's clear what you really mean. There is no ethnically pure state that is a good idea because it enables supremacist thinking. Jews do not need a special country. We're fine.

 

[Tracygill]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

 

[Jonnax]

Where I've ended up is that Israel seems to have huge support among white supremacists in the west.

They look white. And just like how Irish people weren't considered white decades ago in America, they've been accepted as a white people. Especially compared to the sea of brown around them.

Since it's a country defined by racial and religious supremacy.

I'd call it a white supremacist state.

Of course, there are anti-Semites. But they are the ones in the position of power.

It's like a republican in Alabama complaining about political oppression.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

This is an emotionally charged subject and Era may not be the best place to get an unbiased view due to legitimate passion on both sides. But maybe there is. I generally try to stay out of these threads.



This is totally untrue even though it is thoughtlessly thrown around by Israel's defenders. However, there are nuances to anti-Israel rhetoric that can easily transcend into hate speech by echoing anti-Semitic tropes that have been around for centuries as justification for persecution against Jews.

I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the tropes/canards below so you can determine for yourself whether it is legitimate criticism or hate speech.

Antisemitic canard

I will edit to add that for many Jews, Israel is viewed as the last safe bastion in a world that could ultimately see us eliminated. It may sound far fetched, but we have studied the lessons of the Holocaust and the thousands of years of hate that led up to it. Many of our ancestors (mine included) were forced to flee places they had lived for hundreds of years where they were part of the community. There may literally be no place left to go. The occupation in Israel is terrible. The government sucks, just as in the US, but I also believe the country needs to survive for Jews to continue to exist.

Click to shrink...

I agree with this as well. The way Europeans and the middle east viewed Jewish people were terrible a few decades ago, and is still prevalent today.

Hating the Israeli government doesnt mean that one should go down the road of making like there's no reason for Israel to exist. We can argue about it being located in the middle east (which I do agree how problematic it has been) but it doesnt mean that the creation of Israel itself is problematic.

 

[Illithid Dude]

Read Enemies and Neighbors and My Promised Land

 

[DIE BART DIE]

Listen to the podcast MartyrMade

 

[fontguy]

"Is ethnic cleansing good or bad?"
"First, I'd like to refer to the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition, which defines 'ethnicity' as 'the state of belonging to

 

[MarioLuigi]

No, and it says something if people can't answer the question in a straight forward manner.

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No no come on, it's really really complicated......../s

 

[Benjamin]

I'm pretty hung over so apologies if this comes of harsh but what is this shit?

It isn't complicated at all. What the state of Israel is doing is disgusting and also illegal.

The simple answer is the international community needs to act but for whatever reason they don't and let Israel get away with literal crimes against humanity.

Impossible to come up with a single truth? Lol.

Click to shrink...

If you are dismissing the entire situation as not complex then you really do expose yourselves as ignorant of the whole situation. I do not pretend to know it either, but even some modest effort will reveal the deep complexities the region has.

Else, I do look forward to you getting into politics and fixing the Middle East since it is apparently so simple.

 

[MarioLuigi]

If you are dismissing the entire situation as not complex then you really do expose yourselves as ignorant of the whole situation. I do not pretend to know it either, but even some modest effort will reveal the deep complexities the region has.

Else, I do look forward to you getting into politics and fixing the Middle East since it is apparently so simple.

Click to shrink...

Instead of acting indignant, actually explain what is so complex about the ethnic cleansing that occurred for the creation of the state of Israel.

Explain how the genocide that was committed in Europe against Jews justifies the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? How it justifies the apartheid in Israel?

 

[TaySan]

If you can't finish a post without saying "both sides" it's clear what you really mean. There is no ethnically pure state that is a good idea because it enables supremacist thinking. Jews do not need a special country. We're fine.

Click to shrink...

Okay, but what do you suggest to do with the generations of families that already live there? Pack up and leave to where?
This is as much as Jewish homes now as the Palestinians there must be a better solution than kicking people out.
The Middle East in general is one big clusterfuck sadly and it's going to be a long while before anything gets fixed.

 

[AGoodODST]

If you are dismissing the entire situation as not complex then you really do expose yourselves as ignorant of the whole situation. I do not pretend to know it either, but even some modest effort will reveal the deep complexities the region has.

Else, I do look forward to you getting into politics and fixing the Middle East since it is apparently so simple.

Click to shrink...

Do please post more condescending horseshit while you handwave away ethnic cleansing by both siding so hard the fence post is going up your arse and out your mouth.

No one is saying it isn't a complicated issue you cretin. It's posts and views like yours which are the problem. Yes the situation is complicated. However the actions of the Israeli state aren't because they are illegal and disgusting. But please continue to hide behind "it's complicated".

 

[Benjamin]

This will be my last post in this thread.

Instead of acting indignant, actually explain what is so complex about the ethnic cleansing that occurred for the creation of the state of Israel.

Explain how the genocide that was committed in Europe against Jews justifies the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? How it justifies the apartheid in Israel?

Click to shrink...

I don't wish to continue this endlessly, so I refer back to my original point. This is a complicated issue that cannot simply be looked at through a single moment in time, either the situation as is today or during the creation of modern Israel. I want to make it clear to the OP that the problem of the region (and by extension its solution) is beyond talking points of ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, the foundation of modern Israel, apartheid or any other one particular issue. History sadly does not have neat start and end points.

No one is saying it isn't a complicated issue you cretin.

Click to shrink...

I greatly appreciate you calling me a cretin, it really pushes the point I made that this is an emotionally charged issue and this is not the place to ask this question.

In the meantime, please see below quotes where, you and others are clearly stating - and in your case I literally quote - "it isn't complicated at all". All I have tried to do for the OP, is make it clear it is complicated. I refer back to my initial post again: there's thousands of years of history, racial and religious identity and more which have got us to the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

It isn't complicated at all. What the state of Israel is doing is disgusting and also illegal.

Click to shrink...

No no come on, it's really really complicated......../s

Click to shrink...

 

[spineduke]

This will be my last post in this thread.

I don't wish to continue this endlessly, so I refer back to my original point. This is a complicated issue that cannot simply be looked at through a single moment in time, either the situation as is today or during the creation of modern Israel. I want to make it clear to the OP that the problem of the region (and by extension its solution) is beyond talking points of ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, the foundation of modern Israel, apartheid or any other one particular issue. History sadly does not have neat start and end points.

Click to shrink...

Is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians an acceptable "sin" in your eyes for the creation of this "safe haven"?

 

[AGoodODST]

This will be my last post in this thread.

I don't wish to continue this endlessly, so I refer back to my original point. This is a complicated issue that cannot simply be looked at through a single moment in time, either the situation as is today or during the creation of modern Israel. I want to make it clear to the OP that the problem of the region (and by extension its solution) is beyond talking points of ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, the foundation of modern Israel, apartheid or any other one particular issue. History sadly does not have neat start and end points.


I greatly appreciate you calling me a cretin, it really pushes the point I made that this is an emotionally charged issue and this is not the place to ask this question.

In the meantime, please see below quotes where, you and others are clearly stating - and in your case I literally quote - "it isn't complicated at all". All I have tried to do for the OP, is make it clear it is complicated. I refer back to my initial post again: there's thousands of years of history, racial and religious identity and more which have got us to the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

Click to shrink...

Hahahahaha. "Beyond talking about ethnic cleansing". Aye of course it will be your last post.

 

[ProstatePuncher]

This will be my last post in this thread.

I don't wish to continue this endlessly, so I refer back to my original point. This is a complicated issue that cannot simply be looked at through a single moment in time, either the situation as is today or during the creation of modern Israel. I want to make it clear to the OP that the problem of the region (and by extension its solution) is beyond talking points of ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, the foundation of modern Israel, apartheid or any other one particular issue. History sadly does not have neat start and end points.


I greatly appreciate you calling me a cretin, it really pushes the point I made that this is an emotionally charged issue and this is not the place to ask this question.

In the meantime, please see below quotes where, you and others are clearly stating - and in your case I literally quote - "it isn't complicated at all". All I have tried to do for the OP, is make it clear it is complicated. I refer back to my initial post again: there's thousands of years of history, racial and religious identity and more which have got us to the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

Click to shrink...

Nazi's felt it was OK for them to punish other races to create their beloved ethnostate because they felt that they themselves had been punished in the past by their "scheming". Nowadays we've got Israeli politicians calling for the destruction of other races in Palestine to secure a ZIonist ethnostate because apparently Arabs want nothing more than to exterminate all Jews.

It might go into complex history of why the two ethnicities have and are clashing, but there's really easy to understand reasons why so many people find the actions of Israel's current government, and even opposition, disgusting. If you can't accept that the actions in Palestine are at their most very basic, ethnic cleansing, you need to rethink your position.

 

[MarioLuigi]

This will be my last post in this thread.

I don't wish to continue this endlessly, so I refer back to my original point. This is a complicated issue that cannot simply be looked at through a single moment in time, either the situation as is today or during the creation of modern Israel. I want to make it clear to the OP that the problem of the region (and by extension its solution) is beyond talking points of ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, the foundation of modern Israel, apartheid or any other one particular issue. History sadly does not have neat start and end points.

Click to shrink...

Sadly, the ethnic cleansing is still continuing and you cant call it out....

 

[Idde]

Okay, but what do you suggest to do with the generations of families that already live there? Pack up and leave to where?
This is as much as Jewish homes now as the Palestinians there must be a better solution than kicking people out.
The Middle East in general is one big clusterfuck sadly and it's going to be a long while before anything gets fixed.

Click to shrink...

You can see where this line of thinking leads right? Doesn't seem like the Israeli government is planning on stopping the illegal settlements anytime soon. So there will be more and more generations of Jewish people living there. And if they never leave it's only a matter of time until Palestine is no more.

And people ARE getting kicked out. People that have lived there for generations. All the time. With bulldozers. It's just not Jewish people.

 

[Tzarscream]

Nazi's felt it was OK for them to punish other races to create their beloved ethnostate because they felt that they themselves had been punished in the past by their "scheming". Nowadays we've got Israeli politicians calling for the destruction of other races in Palestine to secure a ZIonist ethnostate because apparently Arabs want nothing more than to exterminate all Jews.

Click to shrink...

You are aware it's anti-semitic to compare jews to nazis yeah?

 

[ProstatePuncher]

You are aware it's anti-semitic to compare jews to nazis yeah?

Click to shrink...

I said the Israeli government, not "the Jews".

 

[Tzarscream]

I said the Israeli government, not "the Jews".

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https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Point 10

You can be critical as you like, but specifically drawing comparisons to Nazis is anti semitic.

 

[ProstatePuncher]

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Point 10

Click to shrink...

I think its absolutely ridiculous that you can't criticise and line up current Israeli government policy with other regimes of the past that happily demonised and attempted to exterminate an ethnicity because they were somehow the root cause of all their problems. Its not a good definition of anti-semitism.

 

[electroshockwave]

You are aware it's anti-semitic to compare jews to nazis yeah?

Click to shrink...

Stephen Miller, Ben Shapiro...

 

[Tzarscream]

I think its absolutely ridiculous that you can't criticise and line up current Israeli government policy with other regimes of the past that happily demonised and attempted to exterminate an ethnicity because they were somehow the root cause of all their problems. Its not a good definition of anti-semitism.

Click to shrink...

Yet, it is the definition of anti-semitism.

You can compare them to any previous regime in history you wish to, but the only one you can't use is the one that was specifically interested in killing jews in concentration camps in the 1930s.

 

[ProstatePuncher]

Yet, it is the definition of anti-semitism.

You can compare them to any previous regime in history you wish to, but the only one you can't use is the one that was specifically interested in killing jews in concentration camps in the 1930s.

Click to shrink...

And that's where it becomes absolutely ridiculous.

"All these pots and kettles are black, but see that black pot? Its not like the rest because....reasons?"

 

[electroshockwave]

Yet, it is the definition of anti-semitism.

You can compare them to any previous regime in history you wish to, but the only one you can't use is the one that was specifically interested in killing jews in concentration camps in the 1930s.

Click to shrink...

Correction: it is a definition of antisemitism and not one accepted by all Jewish people.

 

[TaySan]

You can see where this line of thinking leads right? Doesn't seem like the Israeli government is planning on stopping the illegal settlements anytime soon. So there will be more and more generations of Jewish people living there. And if they never leave it's only a matter of time until Palestine is no more.

And people ARE getting kicked out. People that have lived there for generations. All the time. With bulldozers. It's just not Jewish people.

Click to shrink...

I'm totally against that too. No one should be kicked out period. Israel needs to stop with their illegal settlements and go back to previously agreed territory. But obviously that is pie in the sky at this point :/

 

[Jeb]

Yet, it is the definition of anti-semitism.

You can compare them to any previous regime in history you wish to, but the only one you can't use is the one that was specifically interested in killing jews in concentration camps in the 1930s.

Click to shrink...

Do you have anything to add besides derailing the thread into "you can't compare this form of ethnic cleansing to this specific one?"


Calling criticism of Isreal's crimes anti semetic is a common deflection of IDF apologists.

 

[dude]

As an anti-occupation and anti-zionist activist in Israel, I'd say it's apparently very hard to be informed on the regions since about 99% of westerners don't know what they're talking about when they talk about the conflict or region.
I don't know where I'd tell you to start, as this conflict and region is quite complicated. I'd say trying to understand both Israeli and Palestinian societies and histories is probably a good first step.
IMO, +972 Magazine is a good place to read up on the conflict for foreigners.

OP, the Israel Palestine issue is the single most complicated political problem in modern history, with roots that go back literally thousands of years. The problem contains multiple degrees of the hardest questions in politics, religion, ethics, race, rights and the human condition.

It's essentially impossible to really come up with a single truth, but if you are really interested really spread your research around. It's a great way to at least learn about the incredible diversity of humans that on the modern map seem to be just two sides who duke it out.

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The conflict doesn't go back "thousand of years". You could say that the Jewish wish to return to Eretz Yisrael is thousands of years old, but a wish to return to your mythological origin is not the same as Zionism, which is the specific ways in which some Jews wished to return. In fact, Jews lived in the Holy Land forever, and many Jews emigrated to the Holy Land throughout history without inciting a conflict with the native inhabitants.
At it's core, it's a modern conflict - because the catalyst was a modern ideology - Zionism. The substance of the conflict is based on two modern events - the founding of Israel as a Zionist Jewish state('48) and the occupation of Palestine ('67)*.
Thinking this issue is "thousand years old" or based in religion is Israeli propaganda, and trying to tie Israel and Judaism.

*EDIT: I might also add the siege on Gaza ('07) as a separate event.

 

[Tzarscream]

Do you have anything to add besides derailing the thread into "you can't compare this form of ethnic cleansing to this specific one?"


Calling criticism of Isreal's crimes anti semetic is a common deflection of IDF apologists.

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1) I don't see me calling out a common anti-semitic sentiment is me derailing the thread

2) It's not anti-semitic to critcise Israel, there's a lot to criticise and there is a hell of a lot wrong with it, it is anti-semitic to compare them to the Nazis though, for obvious reasons.

 

[bye]

it is anti-semitic to compare them to the Nazis though, for obvious reasons.

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No it is not.

And such an alarming comparison needs to be made to truly highlight the hypocrisy of Israeli government right now.

Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing. You don't need to hit the severity of the Nazi's numbers and concentration camps to draw that comparison.

 

[Idde]

Yet, it is the definition of anti-semitism.

You can compare them to any previous regime in history you wish to, but the only one you can't use is the one that was specifically interested in killing jews in concentration camps in the 1930s.

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Why? Why can't you? The horrors of WW2 and the Holocaust were a major (and for my part an understandable) reason for the creation of Israel. Don't you think it would be wise to think: our people underwent these horrible tragedies, we should do our best not to repeat them?

And if there are similar atrocities, conducted by the state of Israel, not Jewish people specifically, but the state of Israel, it would be extremely weird not to point them out?

I'm totally against that too. No one should be kicked out period. Israel needs to stop with their illegal settlements and go back to previously agreed territory. But obviously that is pie in the sky at this point :/

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I might be looking to black and white at this, and obviously it's not gonna happen. But Israeli government allowed the settlements to happen, it should be up to the government to relocate the settlers. But there have been so many UN resolutions, and Israel just goes: shrug, I'm not doing anything wrong. So yeah, who's gonna make them?

Btw, if Hamas was the stronger power of the two and would be pulling the same shit, I'd say and think the same thing.

Edit: I met a few Israeli who have drawn the same similarities. Are they therefore anti-semetic?