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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I am guilty of enjoying war games/movies/tv shows. I don't think producing or enjoying this content is bad, pretending is a faithful representation of what an actual war is and what soldiers experience is idiotic and disrespectful

Unpopular opinion (in this board at least): I do think producing content depicting war as fun (so basically every game, almost by definition) is pretty bad. I think a world without military shooters would be an unambiguously better world.

And although I'll probably be even more alone in believing this, I personally think that, while consuming that content is not "morally wrong", it's definitely "bad for you", like smoking. And please nobody @ me with studies about violent content not causing violent behaviour because that's not what I'm talking about; I'm taling about public perception of war and voting patterns.
 

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,714
"remember no russian"

ee0oQA.gif

I was never a fan of this sequence. It just felt like a cheap way to one up the shock value of Modern Warfare's POV death scenes. IMO it was designed purely to manufacture controversy in order to boost sales.
 

EndlessNever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,890
I'd strongly disagree with anyone saying Call of Duty shouldn't be allowed in the modern setting, and stick to WW2 or future settings. If that's the case, the entire industry needs to be looked at and see if something should be censored before it's even revealed.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
War games have aways been skeevy to me. A big majority of people can enjoy them with no consequences, for sure; but personally, I just find them gross and I have never been able to enjoy them. When dev teams try to hammer down this is supposed to be ¨realistic¨, it just gets downright disturbing.

I feel like one of the things our society hates the most is entertaining the thought that what one previously thought was fine might be bad. It shows in any topic.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
One of my friends served in the norweigan army in Iraq and he said nobody he's ever met went to war the same person as they left, it ruins people. I get the issue with these threads, because you can't properly convey what that horror actually is in media and nor should you, some of the stories he shared with me actually haunted my nightmares for weeks and I wasn't even there or involved they were so graphic.

I don't understand how militaries of countries (in my case the UK) are allowed to ever advertise the army as a good thing for people and a way to develop personally. It's disgusting that they're allowed to advertise only the good sides of being in the army (because I'm sure they can help personal development/teach you a craft) but never mention the actual horrific realities of war.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,302
Read the first tweet thread first thing after waking up this morning. A hard hitting read and full kudos to him for writing it. I've played the CoD games (almost) annually since the beginning, but I have very little interest in the new one and the angle it's going for.

I'm curious though, there's a couple of people in the thread who have said variations of "should stick to WW2" as an answer to this issue. Why? Is that purely because it's an older war? Out of sight and out of relevance? That's a genuine question by the way, not an attempt to be shitty, just not sure why any real life historical war - including one as barbaric and still just about within todays living memories as WW2 - would be any different to the point these vets are making.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Once upon a time, the CoD series was about the people fighting the war, admire their bravery and selflessness.

Now it is a series where you shoot a baby, feel bad for 4 seconds before landing a headshot on the enemy, and that's supposedly to be a realistic take on war.
I think you forgot the no-scope though. I heard thats how Seal Team Six got Osama.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
About that trial thing - around 2001, there was this coop shooter co-financed by the US Army called America's Army (it was used as a recruitment tool if I remember correctly).

Merits/failures of that game aside, there was an interesting idea in it - if you shot the instructor during one of tutorials, the game teleported you to a jail cell where moody harmonica melody was playing. In a subversion of video game tropes, there was no timer, no way to heroically escape. Just you, sitting in jail, forever. I thought that was pretty clever at the time.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,270
A "realistic" war game has many of the same problems as Desert Bus. First things first, atrocities aside, someone out to kill you doesn't really care if it's "exciting".

Some of the fun-fun things about war I read during my research included artillery barrages lasting days (particularly WW1), "harassing" fire meant to deprive the enemy of rest or sleep, and cutting supply lines to starve out the enemy without fighting (highly recommended). IIRC I also read somewhere that ancient armies (long before germ theory) would try to set up camp upriver of their enemies so they'd drink the shit-tainted water and get cholera. I've read accounts of everything from slingers harassing water-bearers to dehydrate the enemy to using children as suicide bombers. The latter wasn't just to kill; a traumatized enemy was just as neutralized as one taken down with a bullet or disease.

Historically, a soldier more often died of starvation or disease than combat. Fast, slow, didn't matter, as long as you were removed from the battlefield. The symbol of war really shouldn't be some bearded guy with an assault rifle, but rather an emaciated teenager with a thousand-yard stare shitting his brains out and then falling over dead.
grave_of_the_fireflies_2-custom.jpg

Sounds like a fun game, eh?
 

Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
So what's the problem here? Can anyone sum it all up and explain why people are criticizing IW's approach to MW reboot?
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
I don't understand why they try to go down the "this is a realistic depiction " thing with games, that's probably impossible to actually do. Just say the game is gritty and shocking instead of a "realistic depiction ". Action games are supposed to be fun, that's the opposite of what actual war is supposed to be.

Interesting that the second guy has experience with the Six Days in Fallujah game. I can't imagine how upset he must be that a game as big as CoD is trying to say they're a realistic depiction now. Even games like Spec Ops The Line didn't try to act like irs a realistic depiction.

Yeah, I'll never get why shooters go down this route. Sports games and racing games fine, but this?

God yes. The one set in space was fucking rad. I hate that they left that.

It sucks that the campaign for that one is so overlooked. Even by fans of the series looking forward to this game.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
So what's the problem here? Can anyone sum it all up and explain why people are criticizing IW's approach to MW reboot?

Their entire message is so contradictory of itself. They're gonna make a bad ass CoD game but they also want to make it a realistic take on war. Those things don't come together at all and the fact they they're doing so is forehead slapping worthy.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,905
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Devs should be made to listen to vets who have served on the frontlines before they even think about making war games, just to remind them that war should not be glorified.
What about war movies? What about other topics, such as slavery? Catastrophe films? Crime movies? It's ridiculous to imply that a media creator is restricted to create and show, what only people who have been close to such experience want, and let them dictate it.

I think this new cod game, will actually remind people that war is shit, and should not be glorified.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
read both earlier today. War fetishization needs to stop, and it saddens me, more so on John's replies, that people simply cannot understand that his criticism comes from the idea that making these games, war in games, realistic, isn't a good thing to pursue.

So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.

I think war games like COD should just acknowledge they're about as true to war as children playing cops and robbers is akin to being actual police work.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,065
So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.
Nobody is saying war games need to stop, mate, people are talking about how they frame way. Fetishization, false reality, etc...

The whole tweet thread started because of Infinity Wards bullshit about realism.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Could you also say this about the games I mentioned?
Who thinks cod games are realistic?
Those ppl probably think GTA is realistic too.

Considering the GTA games are satirical as they get I'm not sure your comparison works at all.

The developers certainly think their going for a more accurate depiction of war. That's kind of the point of this entire thread and those tweets.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Nobody is saying war games need to stop, mate, people are talking about how they frame way. Fetishization, false reality, etc...

The whole tweet thread started because of Infinity Wards bullshit about realism.

Wasn't Battlefield 3s pitch about gritty realism.
Brothers in arms hell's highway also had "realism" as a selling point, gearbox even had an army vet advising them how to make it more real.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148


lol gamers



i'd bet my life this guy has strong opinions about Kaepernick while essentially telling a veteran to fuck off and leave his games alone.

I made a whole thread about these kinds of reactions but sadly some people just don't care about how others are affected by these kinds of games.

Fuck CoD and Activision. I would rather they go fully fictional like Ace Combat than try to portray something "as realistic as possible" while at the same time making it fun.


They are basically creating something fun out of the misery of other people. That's basically what it is.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,384
It's so unnecessary to talk about the realism from a videogame perspective. Just make it a game and focus on game-y things. Doubt the COD fanbase cares about "realism". Stuff like that is always embarrassing in video games. People want good maps, good guns, and good modes and stuff. No one cares about this realism shit. It's insulting to people like in the twitter threads, but just insulting in general as well to anyone with any sense.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Seems a bit of a double standard to say making a realistic war game is bad but other games that could be viewed realisticly is OK.

Like mixing oil and water, making war seem badass and fun in a videogame while trying to say its realistic isn't a winning move in this day and age. That's the entire point of this topic. Its not just about realism in games.
 

NekoNeko

Coward
Oct 26, 2017
18,455
So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.

are you seriously not seeing the difference between a silly game like GTA and an Indiana Jones like game with magic and aliens to a war simulator that's trying to be realistic?
 

JMeth

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
251
Illinois
There will never be a game true to war. Real war is hiding behind brunt out cars for hours as hell rains down around you, pissing your pants everytime you peek around your cover to take a shot while wondering if it's feasible that you take your FT around to the adjacent pile of rubble in order to try to flank the insurgents. All while praying that the A-10 buzzing around finally gets a kill mission and can aid you while also not lighting you up by accident. Good times. Would make a hell of a game.
 

LocoRoco

Banned
Feb 22, 2019
579
unfortunately WAR is one of the products most consumed by the American people, it is not by chance that these games sell so well out there, as long as people consume war, they will always have someone to take advantage of it, sell it at high profit for entertainment purpose.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.
One game is claiming to be a realistic take on war.

The other is trying to be satirical. Everywhere you look in GTA you will find something stupid like sex jokes or other types of satire. Especially in GTA5.


Them claiming the game is "realistic" and then people who are ignorant buy it and play it will be affected. Everything affects you no matter how small it is so when a game is aiming to be realistic it better pull it off or else it shouldn't exist. Failing to tackle serious issues will cause bad things to happen.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,157
Washington
This is not even a Call of Duty issues is a American issue we love war.

Seriously... all you have to do is see the reverence we have for our soldiers that is not near as given to firefighters, EMTs, doctors in the ER room, even the coast guard doesn't get the same reverence (and they do a lot of life saving as part of their work)... all who I think we should always thank just as much as soldiers (They save lives. And sure some of those don't put their lives on the lines - firefighters sure do though and the coast guard too - but many still work super long hours and sacrifice a lot of their lives to do what they do. The guy who saved my foot agreed to come in on his day off to work on it when I came into the ER and one of his interns I swear was always at the hospital, I kept telling him I didn't believe he slept). We have a memorial day and a veteran's day... where is our day for the people who rescue us and save our lives?

We have so much reverence for the people who go out and kill people for us that we do not give in turn for those that are outright saving our lives. I think that says a lot about where our culture's priorities are.
 

JMeth

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
251
Illinois
I'm starting to feel a bit better, I just needed to step away from the computer for a little bit after that. Thank you both.

My friend was a vet and the PTSD was just too much for them. The worst feeling is being unable to do anything to help and reach them. And it especially hurts too because it was so late at night and his final words are preserved on Twitter which is where he said goodbye to everyone. I didn't know about it until the next day or so. I just really hate war and how it affects so many lives in such horrible ways. I just can't even imagine the amount of pain you or others have to live with. And though I don't know you, I want you to know that you are strong, you are loved, you are wanted. You're a good dude, Mister Megative.

Sorry if I'm getting all sappy.

Man, you don't even want to hear my story. I was in therapy for a year after my friend killed himself due to Kirkuk. It just all happened so fast.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
I work with war veterans as part of my job, and no video game will ever come close to accurately presenting the stories they've told me.

When people want to give CoD the benefit of the doubt in its attempt to portray political aspects and social consequences of modern warfare, I can't help but chuckle in disbelief.

Does anyone really expect a blockbuster video game to seriously address issues like PTSD, moral injury and war crimes somewhere in between its 10 hours of explosions?
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
Six Days in Fallujah has been top of my vaporware wishlist since it was announced. Sounds like just completely original concept, a survival horror type game based on tactical shooting. Hope it eventually gets a release, even if it still looks and plays like a decade old game.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
"remember no russian"

ee0oQA.gif
I still wonder why they put that in the game. Or rather, why have the option to make it playable. I mean, the closest thing would be make a controversy to get more attention to the game, but the game would likely still have sold great, and been an excellent game despite having that scene. Nothing like that is set to be out in the new Modern Warfare game i hope.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,157
Washington
I think theres a game that can work with depicting realism and war. The problem is it would need to be something that doesnt glorify it nor indulge/promote war but would also need to be something that is very critical of it. And im not sure a gamelike that would be made or that it would have a large enough audience to support.

Also waypoint has a fantastic conversation about this topic I recommend regarding the new cod game.

This war of mine. of course it's told more from the people caught in the middle, but it at least gives a lot of idea of how hellish it is for those.