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Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I've not really considered this much. But lets say we get to that second referendum through a minority Labour government.
Then what. New GE? i don't see that being any less divisive than this one...
It'll be divisive but if the best case scenario happens and remain wins A50 will be revoked. That'd mean restarting a whole bunch of shit and by which point even some Brexiteers would feel exhausted restarting everything again. That should at least put the Tories on the back foot. If Remain doesn't win though then Labour is fucked.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
744
I've not really considered this much. But lets say we get to that second referendum through a minority Labour government.
Then what. New GE? i don't see that being any less divisive than this one...

thesis is that the tory vote is massively tied to its ability to deliver brexit, without that it has to run on an unpopular record in government that's isn't even delivering for middle class people who used to form their base (house prices, wage growth, visible effects of austerity)

tories started to poll terribly when may's deal collapsed and only recovered when boris showed a route to brexit by compromising on Ireland and getting his party united, having a second referendum is a big blow to their credibility

it's a risk, i'm of the opinion generally that, while a disaster for the country, this is a good election to lose for labour's narrow self interest as i'm not convinced labour can win an election until brexit is delivered and once we are out out then labour can appeal to leavers again without getting slammed by remainers
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Seems like the UK is f'd, though maybe a youth surge could lead to a hung parliament.

Corbyn should have resigned after he lost the last election to May. He's not a credible messenger against Brexit due to his prior Euroscepticism and his extremism is probably offputting to the general public. I wonder how a more moderate, more pro-EU Labour candidate would have done...
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
As much as I'd like to see it, I think revoking Brexit would be a disaster. The vote itself might be split almost right down the middle, but at a constituency level it's more like 65/35 to Leave. That's about 400 seats in Parliament...
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,555
It'll be divisive but if the best case scenario happens and remain wins A50 will be revoked. That'd mean restarting a whole bunch of shit and by which point even some Brexiteers would feel exhausted restarting everything again. That should at least put the Tories on the back foot. If Remain doesn't win though then Labour is fucked.

Yeah effectively. To be honest I think there are only three scenarios that I think are all that likely to occur:

Conservatives win GE > Brexit happens > Welcome to Hell
Conservatives lose a little ground and parliament is deadlocked even more than before > Country implodes
Conservatives lose significant ground and Labour are able to govern for the sake of another referendum > Remain wins referendum > Labour call another GE and gain enough ground to govern

Any situation where the Tories don't win this election indicates there just isn't strong enough Leave sentiment for them to win a referendum in my opinion. The smears against Corbyn would melt away, and a lot of the "he's not a remainer" stuff would too. Tories would have almost nothing to campaign on etc. This GE is going to dictate everything. Unfortunately I can only see it going one way at this point.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
744
Seems like the UK is f'd, though maybe a youth surge could lead to a hung parliament.

Corbyn should have resigned after he lost the last election to May. He's not a credible messenger against Brexit due to his prior Euroscepticism and his extremism is probably offputting to the general public. I wonder how a more moderate, more pro-EU Labour candidate would have done...

check out jo swinson's favorables and the struggles of the lib dems if you think there's a big market for more pro-eu and more moderate economically
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
Seems like the UK is f'd, though maybe a youth surge could lead to a hung parliament.

Corbyn should have resigned after he lost the last election to May. He's not a credible messenger against Brexit due to his prior Euroscepticism and his extremism is probably offputting to the general public. I wonder how a more moderate, more pro-EU Labour candidate would have done...
GwNFmZ0.jpg
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Seems like the UK is f'd, though maybe a youth surge could lead to a hung parliament.

Corbyn should have resigned after he lost the last election to May. He's not a credible messenger against Brexit due to his prior Euroscepticism and his extremism is probably offputting to the general public. I wonder how a more moderate, more pro-EU Labour candidate would have done...
I want to say kudos to any british leftie. Because these kind of posts are already making me cuestion my sanity and Ive only been around UK politics for a few months. I cant imagine how tiring stuff like this might be after years of reading it over and over again

As for you Mr. Priest, google the name Ed Milliband to know how a moderate Labour darling does against the tories.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,806
I've always considered stopping Brexit to hugely damaging to the Tories in any subsequent election. I'm sure they'd try to spin it and blame everyone else but they will have "lost" Brexit in many people's eyes and they'd flock to Farage and co. Even though many may be unhappy with Brexit being stopped I don't think you'd find any sort of majority willing to restart the whole mess either, what do the Cons have without Brexit?

This is why I'm content with any result next week that allows a majority for a people's vote. Aside from getting the Tories out it is not only the best path to stopping Brexit but the best path to a future majority Labour Government, in my opinion. The importance of this election really cannot be overstated, it has the capacity to change our country massively for the better or the worse.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,714
I wonder how a more moderate, more pro-EU Labour candidate would have done...
Astronomically worse. Labour's issues aren't in Remain areas, completely alienating all Leave voters would destroy what little momentum they've got going. Not to mention having a centrist manifesto that would fail to energise a youth vote. Honestly, everything you said would have resulted in Labour circling the low 20s in most polls.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
It'll be divisive but if the best case scenario happens and remain wins A50 will be revoked. That'd mean restarting a whole bunch of shit and by which point even some Brexiteers would feel exhausted restarting everything again. That should at least put the Tories on the back foot. If Remain doesn't win though then Labour is fucked.

In the scenario where Labour win and 2nd ref revokes A50, I find it highly unlikely Labour would win at the next GE.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
744
Yeah effectively. To be honest I think there are only three scenarios that I think are all that likely to occur:

Conservatives win GE > Brexit happens > Welcome to Hell
Conservatives lose a little ground and parliament is deadlocked even more than before > Country implodes
Conservatives lose significant ground and Labour are able to govern for the sake of another referendum > Remain wins referendum > Labour call another GE and gain enough ground to govern

Any situation where the Tories don't win this election indicates there just isn't strong enough Leave sentiment for them to win a referendum in my opinion. The smears against Corbyn would melt away, and a lot of the "he's not a remainer" stuff would too. Tories would have almost nothing to campaign on etc. This GE is going to dictate everything. Unfortunately I can only see it going one way at this point.

i can see a positive route in the second one where boris is prime minister but still can't deliver brexit, the tories moan a lot and have to call a spring 2020 election that leads to a labour victory, but the numbers are hard now all the tory rebels are fucked off (though balanced by some labour leavers standing down).
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
A Tory majority is far from certain, but the margins are going to be very tight and I wouldn't be surprised if we hear reports that random labour MP won't support Corbyn as PM so the margins become even tighter.

If Lib Dems keep +10 seats they become kingmakers, which is fucking abysmal after their horrendous campaign
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,714
In the scenario where Labour win and 2nd ref revokes A50, I find it highly unlikely Labour would win at the next GE.
It depends on a lot of things that we can't really predict. My guess is that all the major parties would run on manifestos that largely ignored that Brexit was ever a thing except for the BXP who would soak up some of the gammon vote for real this time which would damage the Tories a lot.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,555
In the scenario where Labour win and 2nd ref revokes A50, I find it highly unlikely Labour would win at the next GE.

Why?

It simultaneously removes the biggest issue Labour has (Corbyn is boogie man smears which would dissolve as the country didn't fall apart the moment he stepped into Number 10) and the only winning issue for the Tories (Get Brexit Done!) I suppose there might be a danger of a kind of post-War style freak election but I don't see Corbyn's Labour making that mistake. I genuinely think that scenario could lead to a Labour majority which is 0% likely in this GE imo.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
744
the thing that keeps me up at night is that the tory vote is likely a lot more efficient under FPTP than in 2017, due to them trading tory remainers in safe Home Counties seats for labour leavers in tight leave marginals, so the current polling might be under-estimating their strength if anything
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
In the scenario where Labour win and 2nd ref revokes A50, I find it highly unlikely Labour would win at the next GE.
What would the tories campaign on? You can see even now how shambolic their campaign is currently with only Brexit being a resonating feature. Restarting Brexit wouldn't be a vote earner at that point because people would be very tired.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
check out jo swinson's favorables and the struggles of the lib dems if you think there's a big market for more pro-eu and more moderate economically

Then I guess the UK is just f'd. I do think Corbyn's extremism (regarding things like nationalization of utilities and railways) and unwillingness to even take a side in a new referendum is keeping this from being a pure Brexit vs. No Brexit election, which is what this whole thing is really about. I also think Jo Swinson's unwillingness to go into coalition with Labour given that Brexit is the fundamental issue has prevented a credible alternative coalition from forming, leaving the Tories almost with a majority by default.

Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed for some kind of youth surge.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
the thing that keeps me up at night is that the tory vote is likely a lot more efficient under FPTP than in 2017, due to them trading tory remainers in safe Home Counties seats for labour leavers in tight leave marginals, so the current polling might be under-estimating their strength if anything
Basically the only thing that potentially screws them is the Brexit party but that's also a double edged sword against labour and comes down to a per constituency basis. Either way even in the absolute best case scenario for labour things would be way too tight.

It's likely the reason why you gov polling indicated a hung parliament last election but probably still doesn't now.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Astronomically worse. Labour's issues aren't in Remain areas, completely alienating all Leave voters would destroy what little momentum they've got going. Not to mention having a centrist manifesto that would fail to energise a youth vote. Honestly, everything you said would have resulted in Labour circling the low 20s in most polls.

You may very well be right on that front. How did Labour ever win an election in the UK in the first place? Why did the public move so far to the right?
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,806
Then I guess the UK is just f'd. I do think Corbyn's extremism (regarding things like nationalization of utilities and railways) and unwillingness to even take a side in a new referendum is keeping this from being a pure Brexit vs. No Brexit election, which is what this whole thing is really about. I also think Jo Swinson's unwillingness to go into coalition with Labour given that Brexit is the fundamental issue has prevented a credible alternative coalition from forming, leaving the Tories almost with a majority by default.

Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed for some kind of youth surge.
Making it a Brexit vs. No Brexit election is exactly what would guarantee Johnson a majority. This election isn't about that and should never be about one issue, one of the things that has helped Labour the most is pushing the NHS issue.

There's also nothing extreme about Labour's nationalisation policies and they poll well with voters.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Then I guess the UK is just f'd. I do think Corbyn's extremism (regarding things like nationalization of utilities and railways) and unwillingness to even take a side in a new referendum is keeping this from being a pure Brexit vs. No Brexit election, which is what this whole thing is really about. I also think Jo Swinson's unwillingness to go into coalition with Labour given that Brexit is the fundamental issue has prevented a credible alternative coalition from forming, leaving the Tories almost with a majority by default.

Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed for some kind of youth surge.

That'd be a very very bad thing. The reason labours struggling is because people see it as some pure brexit vs no brexit election. Constituency wise that will always favour the brexit side and harm labour greatly. That's why they've been trying to poison the appeal of Boris deal while generally ignore Brexit.

The no brexit side can never win that election under FPTP which is also why a more moderate more pro EU candidate would be a very very bad idea under these circumstances.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Making it a Brexit vs. No Brexit election is exactly what would guarantee Johnson a majority. This election isn't about that and should never be about one issue, one of the things that has helped Labour the most is pushing the NHS issue.

There's also nothing extreme about Labour's nationalisation policies and they poll well with voters.

But objectively Labour is not doing well since they are, y'know, losing the election. So how do they course correct if these present trends hold? I'm not even saying to have a centrist/Blairite manifesto, but they would at least need to have a more effective messenger (who's waiting in the wings?). It's not a great argument to say that the leader of a party just kept the party from losing by more.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,516
Fucksake.

So what is happening in comparison to 2017, these polls stating youth vote going down (so Labour) but Conservative overall polling remaining similar?

A hung Parliament was only ever the likely outcome, yet to be told we're still not in the ballpark for that is frustrating.

The SNP on 52 seats does seem like bullshit (the seat I am in turning yellow is NOT happening, but the poll above suggests it will).

The conspiracy theorist within me sometimes wonders if some of the polls are being 'interfered with' on a large scale to make it seem like Labour are doing badly, either to make Labour supporters/the youth go into panic mode and actually vote, or to make them think "what's the point?!" and not bother to vote. The way that things are going in the UK's rapidly failing democracy, neither would surprise me. I'm also certain that there are some Tories/Brexiters posting on various forums and across social media and pretending to be Labour supporters, saying "why bother to vote?" in the hope of discouraging Labour/non-Tory voter turnout, particularly among the youth.
 
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Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,714
I thought the "polls are stating youth vote is going down" thing was just someone misreading one of the polls data?
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
You may very well be right on that front. How did Labour ever win an election in the UK in the first place? Why did the public move so far to the right?
Brexit is the sole reason Labour is doing badly. Tories would be getting their ass kicked currently if the brexit issue didn't exist as it's the only thing holding them together. Austerity has tangibly damaged the country to the point where the word is toxic politically. The issue is the immediate threat of brexit allows people to ignore all that.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,516
A lot of Labour supporters and non-Tories (here and elsewhere) are saying variations of "we're fucked", but isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy? I mean, if you go around thinking "why bother voting, we can't win anyway" and not voting then you most certainly will NOT win! So how to we give people a severe kick up the arse and make sure that they DO vote???

Come on people, DO something! - make sure that your Labour supporting and non-Tory friends and family turn out in their droves to vote!! Defeatism won't get you anywhere.
 

ronpontelle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
Pure Brexit élection, with FPTP and pro Brexit bring split between basically Tory and BP, anti Brexit being split between everyone else just leads us back to votes being split and benefiting the Tories.

It's a total crock.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I thought the "polls are stating youth vote is going down" thing was just someone misreading one of the polls data?
There was a registered to vote percentage posted earlier. Which implies improved (maybe if the majority turn up) but not amazing turnout. The problem is these are youths that are answering polls which inherently means they're much more likely to be politically engaged and actually turn up to vote than youths that don't bother answering polls. So I highly doubt youth turnout to be better than response rate of these polls.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Brexit is the sole reason Labour is doing badly. Tories would be getting their ass kicked currently if the brexit issue didn't exist as it's the only thing holding them together. Austerity has tangibly damaged the country to the point where the word is toxic politically. The issue is the immediate threat of brexit allows people to ignore all that.

That's surprising to me. Are you saying that Brexit has actual majority support in the UK? I was always under the impression that the referendum result was more due to people not taking it seriously and getting out to vote. And now there's been several years since the results to see through all the hollow promises of the Brexiteers...
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,714
There was a registered to vote percentage posted earlier. Which implies improved (maybe if the majority turn up) but not amazing turnout. The problem is these are youths that answering polls which inherently means they're much more likely to be politically engaged and actually turn up to vote than youths that don't bother answering polls. So I highly doubt youth turnout to be better than response rate of these polls.
I mean more the "The polls are showing Labour doing badly because they're weighted towards a terrible Youth turnout" argument that keeps coming up. AFAIK that was based on someone misreading the data from one of the earlier polls and it seems to have stuck.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
People need yo stop blaming Labour leaders over and over. They need to realise it is the English public that are the problem. Way too many white people in this country don't care if they are fucked over if it means poc like me get it worse. This country is far more racist than alot of you think.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
That's surprising to me. Are you saying that Brexit has actual majority support in the UK? I was always under the impression that the referendum result was more due to people not taking it seriously and getting out to vote. And now there's been several years since the results to see through all the hollow promises of the Brexiteers...
Roughly 50% of country want Brexit and a percentage of that are no deal nutters. The problem is over 60% of constituencies which need to be won to deliver mp's had a brexit majority in a referrendum and a lot of those are are in labour held constituencies. That makes any remain/brexit election is essentially a mine field for labour. That's why they've tried to avoid that framing at all costs.
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
The first election I ever voted in was the one where Tony Blair got in.I can't describe how great the next day felt. Like true change had happened and the Tories were gone.

But man what a swing back to the status quo.

in my hearts of hearts I know the country will never vote for JC as prime minister. I've sent my postal vote for JC from over here in Canada.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I mean more the "The polls are showing Labour doing badly because they're weighted towards a terrible Youth turnout" argument that keeps coming up. AFAIK that was based on someone misreading the data from one of the earlier polls and it seems to have stuck.
It was based of a partial misreading even the analysis from the pollister assume you saw displayed their weightings were still skewered against anyone under 65 as it had decreased turnouts for those but improved turnouts for 65+ (which are primarily tory voters which would would most defintely skew your results.) So at least for the early poll it was talking about the skew wasn't anywhere near as bad as initially implied but that skew was definitely still there. As it still makes no sense to assume near uniform decreased turnouts for everyone else but improved turnouts even ever so slightly for 65+ in a winter election.
 

CD_93

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,995
Lancashire, United Kingdom
I have worked in the same school for just over 10 years. We have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds in that time and a significant number of staff who have never been replaced.

Yet I know of a number of teachers and other staff who vote Tory and / or voted for Brexit. Many have made passing comment about budget cuts and resources going away without but a care for the political correlation. Most have come around to realising they were lied to on Brexit, but I'm still working on the Tory business.

I have persuaded at least 3 to switch their votes after a number of casual conversations about austerity. The biggest common factor has been that they "don't follow politics" but have "always voted the same way," largely because their parents did.

Going to keep pushing until the end. Many will be fed up with me now but if I can't do this when the possibility of making Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell our leaders is an option then I never will.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,516
People need yo stop blaming Labour leaders over and over. They need to realise it is the English public that are the problem. Way too many white people in this country don't care if they are fucked over if it means poc like me get it worse. This country is far more racist than alot of you think.

The English public are being led primarily by the right wing press and social media (mainly Facebook) - remember that the right wing press have a major upper hand in the UK, the left wing press have little coverage in comparison. During years of Tory rule and 'New Labour' under Blair (Tory-lite as some describe it) the dumbing down of the UK continued apace; combine that with voter apathy and austerity and you have a recipe for stupidity with ignorant anger as a catalyst. But who is driving this? A small handful of billionaires and other very rich people (including media owners of course) who are shit-scared of Labour getting into power and who will do anything to prevent that from happening.
 
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ronpontelle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
Well I just got a second postal vote form through the post. I'm going to check tomorrow with the council what one to send. Wonder if they're checked when they come in?

Phoned them today as my wife hadn't received hers (we live in Normandy) and they said it was send today, so I had a go at her because she applied weeks ago. Then it turned up in the post this afternoon...

The woman on the phone said it's crazy, busier than it's ever been, sounds like a total shitshow.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
The first election I ever voted in was the one where Tony Blair got in.I can't describe how great the next day felt. Like true change had happened and the Tories were gone.

But man what a swing back to the status quo.

in my hearts of hearts I know the country will never vote for JC as prime minister. I've sent my postal vote for JC from over here in Canada.

Cheers love/Chris!
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
The English public are being led primarily by the right wing press and social media (mainly Facebook) - remember that the right wing press have a major upper hand in the UK, the left wing press have little coverage in comparison. During years of Tory rule and 'New Labour' under Blair (Tory-lite as some describe it) the dumbing down of the UK continued apace; combine that with voter apathy and austerity and you have a recipe for stupidity with ignorant anger as a catalyst. But who is driving this? A small handful of billionaires and other very rich people (including media owners of course).
They can still be bigoted and led by the press, it doesn't just have to be one thing. The UK is a very bigoted country any one denying this is part of the problem.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,143
Chesire, UK
the thing that keeps me up at night is that the tory vote is likely a lot more efficient under FPTP than in 2017, due to them trading tory remainers in safe Home Counties seats for labour leavers in tight leave marginals, so the current polling might be under-estimating their strength if anything

If it helps you sleep, both MRP constituency level modelling and basic-ass old school UNS modelling are both currently spitting out the same results in terms of numbers of seats.

The polls are the polls, there doesn't seem to be any hidden lean that would turn this into an unexpected nightmare.

Roughly 50% of country want Brexit and a percentage of that are no deal nutters. The problem is over 60% of constituencies which need to be won to deliver mp's had a brexit majority in a referrendum and a lot of those are are in labour held constituencies. That makes any remain/brexit election is essentially a mine field for labour. That's why they've tried to avoid that framing at all costs.

Bollocks do they.

~30% tops want Brexit, another ~30% who want to Remain, a good ~40% who couldn't honestly give a fuck.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
If it helps you sleep, both MRP constituency level modelling and basic-ass old school UNS modelling are both currently spitting out the same results in terms of numbers of seats.

The polls are the polls, there doesn't seem to be any hidden lean that would turn this into an unexpected nightmare.



Bollocks do they.

~30% tops want Brexit, another ~30% who want to Remain, a good ~40% who couldn't honestly give a fuck.
That 40% is definitely wrong, the actual referendum itself had an absurd turnout as far as British politics go 72%.
 

Krypta

Member
Oct 29, 2017
227
Is there some reason for all these doom and gloom besides a YouGov poll not showing a huge swing from the last YouGov poll

*checks notes*

three days ago?

Looking at the figures, YouGov had no shift in the undecided vote either (and the last Survation poll had an increase in undecideds). In 2017, the Labour surge was from undecideds switching to them. The change Survation showed in the last 2 weeks of 2017 was:

CON (+1)
UKIP (-1)
LAB (+6)
Undecided (-6)
LDEM (-)

This election will be decided when the undecideds start to pick a side.
 
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