Starmar isn't really progressive enough for me. I kinda wish the progressive part of Labour and Rebecca Long-Bailey would just set up their own, true far-left party and ditch the Labour centre.
UK: Sir Keir Starmer is the new Labour Party leader, replacing Jeremy Corbyn
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Under our voting system, that'd only help the Tories.
Sincerely hope that absolutely does not happen.
Those tits in TIG splitting really did us no favours. Now everyone disaffected is going to want to split. Great stuff.
as Soon as the furlough ends and millions of people are unemployed the mood around Sunak will change
At which point ever having a non-conservative government goes from "unlikely" to "impossible". If a much more left leaning labour party couldn't win an election against Boris fucking Johnson, there's no hope for a spun off left leaning party, which only serves to ensure that the right wingers in politics are untouchable.
I'd prefer for them to remain and drag the Labour party (a smaller amount) leftwards than ensure right wing politicians are completely unopposed.
Unfortunately, a big tent is the only reliable way to win an election at this point. It's bullshit, but if you really want to make a difference, push for Labour to get in with a commitment for massive, much needed electoral reform.
If you want real, sustainable change in this country, getting rid of FPTP is the only way to go.
The winds can change.
I found the interesting article I read the other day:
If it's all about the economy, why are the Tories still polling better than Labour? | Larry Elliott
The list of government failures should be a gift to Keir Starmer, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
www.theguardian.com
Yup. Although I fear it will never happen - remember the outpouring of absolute bullshit propaganda when we had the a/v referendum?
Yeah, that pissed me off a ton - there was a huge amount of shit thrown around about AV that a ton of people believed - meanwhile folks that wanted PR pushed for a "No" vote because they thought that letting this win would stop any further attempts to reform the electoral system. Something that's clearly worked out for them over the last ten years...
I think Labour would be better just ambiguously promising a "better, fairer voting system" and then actually putting something comprehensive in place if they win the election. Even something akin to the Scottish mixed system of FPTP constituencies and regional MPs voted on a proportional basis would make a huge difference - but that in itself would be a massive undertaking.
No secret I was keen on RLB for the leadership (or at least, thought she was the best choice), but I did think/hope Keir would be both better and more 'unifying' than he has been.
I don't think I expected him to stick to his pledges with gusto, but I thought we would at least get the odd nod towards them.
Maybe everyone who thinks he is playing this 3D chess game of being silent until 6 months before an election, having an amazing campaign, and then turning out to be a secret lefty are right, and it will pay off - but I'm incredibly dubious. Additionally, on the way, the Tories are getting away with literal murder, not only unopposed, but often supported. It feels like 2010 austerity again.
I dunno, if they tune the messaging that the lost jobs were 'zombie jobs' and there will be more opportunities than ever in post Brexit/Covid Britain, they'll weasel out of things just fine. "Why would you want your NHS money to support those in empty jobs who aren't even working anyway. If they're not lazy they'll find something new".
On topic, I'm a non member but Keir's a big disappointment thus far. I was hoping for internal diplomacy so the party could at least present itself as broadly United, but there doesn't seem to be much in terms of olive branches or strategy. The respecting the government whilst also making wishy washy critiques should've been over with by May as well.
Keir Starmer has been Leader of the Opposition for a few months and has, within that time, seen Labour gain significant ground against the Conservatives and has seen his personal stocks rise massively. There is polling right now showing that he is the country's preferred Prime Minister over Boris Johnson (34% to 32%). Just because we think that the government's handling of the crisis shows that they are incapable of governing, doesn't mean you can easily persuade the entire population of that.
It's not even remotely enough to persuade the country that the government's handling of the crisis shows they are incapable of governing. Labour have to show they'd be better. Which is the real challenge.
Yes, it's a real challenge given that the party's reputation was completely hammered by the old leadership team, by endless needless in-fighting, and by the media. But Starmer is doing a very good job at making Labour look like the adult in the room right now. He's also done a pretty good job at shedding the potentially problematic remainer image.
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I might be recalling this wrong, but I always felt that Corbyn's whole media strategy was a bit odd.
Yes, he was piled on, but he also never seemed to reach out and use the media to his advantage - but instead came across as quite cold towards it.
Look at when Starmer was criticised by some (albeit a very very vocal minority) for penning something in The Telegraph - as if authoring something in one of the biggest daily publications in the country was odd or novel.
Yes, he was piled on, but he also never seemed to reach out and use the media to his advantage - but instead came across as quite cold towards it.
Look at when Starmer was criticised by some (albeit a very very vocal minority) for penning something in The Telegraph - as if authoring something in one of the biggest daily publications in the country was odd or novel.
When Starmer is getting consistently outflanked on racism by Boris Johnson it's pretty telling that Starmer isn't the right person for me
Idk, I think the existing poverty in the crisis is being understated and that when the sky clears the Tories will benefit. They know how to take credit for things they never did, and very well on that note.
Labour from 1900 onwards contributed to Tory dominance by splitting the vote between themselves and the Liberal Party who were more left than the Tories, and it took about 25 years before it overtook them. Would you say that Labour was wrong to contribute to Tory victories by splitting the opposition vote for the first few decades of its existence when it eventually led to 1945 and all the good that followed?
Disregarding my opinions and beliefs on what will actually happen, I myself am personally not even remotely happy with Keir, and I legit thought he was more capable than he is right now. He has failed to adequately oppose the Tories far too much for my liking, and has handed out every single olive branch to the right possible whilst ignoring the left (who bear in mind actually helped elect him) at the first opportunity. It's a bit insulting. But even disregarding that from a more neutral perspective I don't think that he's done anywhere near as good as he should have done so far. His ceiling of support is still far behind the Tory floor.
The problem is that Keir should be more forceful in actually opposing the government. Regarding Priti Patel showing her reich again, there's been relative radio silence from the party. Keir's more liked among Tories than Corbyn was but I'm starting to think it's because they'd beat him easily and they know it. Let's not also forget how much replacing a Tory leader lets the public forgive all previous transgressions towards the Tories should Boris turn out to be a liability, and how the Tories are still well over 40% in the polls and semi-regularly exceed their previous election result in terms of percentage points.
When push comes to shove my fear is that this relatively subdued opposition will get largely ignored, with on the fence voters choosing Tory at the last minute. And I just not confident about Keir winning back the north either.
Labour MPs express solidarity with Dawn Butler after police car stop - LabourList
Labour MPs have expressed solidarity with Dawn Butler MP after she described how she had been the victim…
labourlist.org
The guy is well sus on black issues. You just can't ignore it.
I guess that should be expected from someone who was the top cop in the countryLabour MPs express solidarity with Dawn Butler after police car stop - LabourList
Labour MPs have expressed solidarity with Dawn Butler MP after she described how she had been the victim…
The guy is well sus on black issues. You just can't ignore it.
I don't think many are going to say with any confidence that Starmer has the next election in the bag, or even that he's likely to win it, but there's really no evidence whatsoever that he wasn't the right pick for leader. As cathartic as it would be to see him tearing into the Conservatives, his calmer tone is working and allows him to avoid being smeared as anti-patriotic or politicising a health crisis.
I think for me... it's a bit frustrating to see some people who had endless patience for Corbyn's meanderings now attacking Starmer because he can't achieve the impossible. Not saying you specifically to be clear. It's all a bit ironic for people that bemoaned in-fighting, but who are now happily continuing it.
Nutters? The same people who volunteered their time and energy to try and get a Labour government into power are also nutters? I fail to see how wanting a better future for all makes you a nutter. They worked hard and contributed much and generally were stand-up folks. Don't shit on them until you can say you've done as much for the cause of human decency as they have
The second-worst failure of the Blair administration was not bringing in PR when they had the chance. They doomed the country to decades more of this Tory fuckery.
Same with the LDs jumping the gun on a terrible and hastily organised AV referendum which was clearly engineered to fail - one of their few concrete conditions for joining the coalition. There's quite a few guilty parties here.
couldn't. Blair wanted it but the unions and majority of labour MPs didn't because they preferred 100% of the power.
That's the issue. To get PR passed you need to win. Passing PR means you lose power. So it needs a bunch of MPs willing to sacrifice their jobs to get it through, and in 1997 labour was not going to voluntarily give up power after waiting 18 years to get back into government.
It was one of several big things Blair wanted that were blocked by the wider party MPs.
The electorate wants to live in a right wing shit hole and will occasionally take it in red rather than blue if Murdoch tells them to. Fuck trying to please them, sorry, I want things to actually be better.
Not sure how you think Momentum are actually achieving anything other than strengthening the right.
"Fuck the electorate" isn't a stellar campaign my friend.
Yeah, I can see many in Labour, both on the left and the centre, viewing PR as a permanent blocker of a 1945-style mandate (or 1997, for that matter).
Only circumstances have changed and we're now miles away from the post-war period where two parties completely dominated, and this looks to continue unless the SNP, LDs, PC, and the Greens and their associated bases magically evaporate.
This also pretty gross considering the Labour activists that were attacked during the last election campaign for being "socialists" etc.
Which part of momentum campaigns for that? How are they strengthening the right?
They're at least giving a voice to people like me and the issues I care about, unlike the black lives don't matter robocop.
I'm not a politician, I'm not trying to get elected. I'm just trying to make some noise for stuff that matters.
Asking black people in the UK to have faith in the police to sort themselves out? Bold and timely statement from Labour's transphobic and racist leader.
I will say that some of Corbyn supporters are coming across as incredibly hostile to the party recently.
There's absolutely a place for meaningful critique of Starmer/Labour itself, but some of the ire being directed towards them doesn't feel constructive at all - it feels like it's destructive.
Honestly, sometimes you'd forget that we've got a Tory government in charge (and have done for 10 years) with the amount of effort being put towards criticising Labour.
(Although some are calling him a Tory anyway so maybe that's redundant lol)
There's absolutely a place for meaningful critique of Starmer/Labour itself, but some of the ire being directed towards them doesn't feel constructive at all - it feels like it's destructive.
Honestly, sometimes you'd forget that we've got a Tory government in charge (and have done for 10 years) with the amount of effort being put towards criticising Labour.
(Although some are calling him a Tory anyway so maybe that's redundant lol)
Right, because when Corbyn was in charge the right of the party fell in line and showed unity did they? Stood behind the leader to end years of Tory rule? I must have missed that.
Almost like there was a conspiracy against them and their elected representatives smh my head.
It always goes without saying that the Tories are heinous. Especially on era, I don't think we have any Tory defenders. Their behaviour, comments and policies are regularly denounced and criticised.
I can see no practical way of me influencing the Tory party, other than through Labour. I am a Labour Party member, and I want to be represented by a party which criticises the Tory government as they kill 10,000's of people. I want to be represented by someone who sticks to the pledges he was elected on, and doesn't just hope nobody asks him about things like transphobia, racism and immigration.
I don't think my asking for that on ResetEra.com is being destructive.
Well, yes, I understand the anger and the fallout from that situation - obviously people are hurting from that.
I just don't think it necessarily makes this right, or nice to see from any faction.
Sorry, I should have clarified that my observations were based more on wider social media than anything on this site.
The conversations here have been good, to be honest!
No see now the oil war gang have their "sensible grown up" in charge you have to be positive about the transphobic poppy wearing royalist at all times everywhere or you're a sabatour who wants a tory government.
Right, but I'm not in the party. Am I allowed to criticise it from outside, or do I have to be 'nice' and pretend to be a centrist on this video game forum?
God bless the posters in this thread who can't seem to grasp the fact we're not in an election year and that changes how you play the political game. I guess thats what happens when your first and only taste of caring about politics is Magic Grandad Chant Hour at Glastonbury and not actually Doing The Politics Work and playing the long game.
Thats before we even get into the fringe lunacy of calling Keir Starmer transphobic and a racist. Genuinely get a grip of yourselves.
Thats before we even get into the fringe lunacy of calling Keir Starmer transphobic and a racist. Genuinely get a grip of yourselves.
Of course.
I've always said that criticism is good, and should play a part in forging the direction of the party. No one should be forced to just fall in line - that's not how a big tent party like Labour should work.
Again, I should reiterate that my post wasn't in reference to anything specific that I've seen here - more with social media in general.
Labour leader Keir Starmer pleads with people to ‘stop chucking bricks at each other’ in trans rights debate
Labour leader Keir Starmer has commented on the debate over trans rights in the UK, saying that "everybody [has] to stop chucking bricks at each other".
www.pinknews.co.uk
The best you can say is that Starmer thinks we should be nice to the transphobes and listen to them but maaaaybe he doesn't agree with them. So he miiight only be a transphobe enabler rather than a transphobe. As for the racism, when Boris Johnson is quicker to seem against racial profiling than you are that's pretty suspicious.
I don't think we need to wait for some smoking gun of hate here, which is probably where we disagree. I'm coming from an angle of prejudice until proven otherwise.
It's telling the tone police never come for these sensible & mature posts
While I'd consider myself socialist-curious as in I'm socialist leaning but not sure if I'm socialist enough to be classified by the league of extraordinary socialists to be allowed to call themselves a socialist.
I thoroughly understand why Labour need to gain back the centre because they're a huge chunk of the voting public and unless something drastically changes to make the majority of the public in on the fence areas heavily left leaning, or unless the voting system changes I'd rather have a Tory Zero Government that Stammer seems to be offering than a Diet Tory government from Lib Dems or Tory. It's far from the Doctor Labour that Jeremy Corbyn was offering, but I prefer it to what Johnson is offering.
I hope that opinion makes sense.
I thoroughly understand why Labour need to gain back the centre because they're a huge chunk of the voting public and unless something drastically changes to make the majority of the public in on the fence areas heavily left leaning, or unless the voting system changes I'd rather have a Tory Zero Government that Stammer seems to be offering than a Diet Tory government from Lib Dems or Tory. It's far from the Doctor Labour that Jeremy Corbyn was offering, but I prefer it to what Johnson is offering.
I hope that opinion makes sense.
Labour leader Keir Starmer pleads with people to ‘stop chucking bricks at each other’ in trans rights debate
Labour leader Keir Starmer has commented on the debate over trans rights in the UK, saying that "everybody [has] to stop chucking bricks at each other".
The best you can say is that Starmer thinks we should be nice to the transphobes and listen to them but maaaaybe he doesn't agree with them. So he miiight only be a transphobe enabler rather than a transphobe. As for the racism, when Boris Johnson is quicker to seem against racial profiling than you are that's pretty suspicious.
He talked to Dawn Butler yesterday, maybe he should have come out and made a public statement quicker but saying Boris is quicker on racism is just BS.
Politics is about building coalitions and bringing people together through education if they don't agree, he can't just say to many voters that they are transphobes, that'll just alienate them. The Tory government will weaponise the Trans topic like they are doing with refugees, like they did with gay people 20-30 years ago. Labour has to stand with Trans people by persuading and educating people, not just by demonising them because they wont win that fight with a Media being on the Tory side.
I agree that the political calculus here makes sense. But I worry about the effect that five years of both parties telling TERFs that their views are valid and should be listened to will have on Trans and other queer people. Ultimately I don't feel that transphobia becoming even more acceptable and mainstream than it currently is is an acceptable price to pay for a Starmer premiership. It needs pushing back against now before it gets any worse.