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US PoliERA 2019 |OT4| Folded like a DOG

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DrROBschiz

DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
16,508
BoboBrazil said:
Those investigations and hearings are pointless if it isn't leading to impeachment. It's their duty to hold the president accountable and that's impeachment.
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Doesn't matter

Constitution is clear about what their obligations are

I don't see any reality where Trump's conduct as Executive should be considered acceptable

Aaron said:


Save us, daddy

It's troubling that your only response to yesterday's news was to commend AG Barr. As we can all now read for ourselves, his summary and press conference were both deeply misleading - and we all know why.
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Hilarious... they do know that the ongoing investigations that the redactions are protecting likely also point to Trump or at least look bad for him?

They have been scooping up criminal associates and top campaign aides and financial criminals left and right

All these people hand picked by Trump. His friends, buddies, colleagues, etc... Why the fuck do we want a president who employs and keeps this kind of company

The cognitive dissonance of his defenders makes me want to explode
 
BoboBrazil

BoboBrazil

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
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Oct 25, 2017
18,765
Blader said:
The point of the investigations and hearings is to fully explore Trump's criminality and, as you said, keep his dirt in the public eye. If their only point is to lead to impeach, then they are totally pointless as we already know what impeachment does (or rather doesn't) lead to.

like, can you game this out for me? Because under this scenario I see Dems investigating and holding hears on Trump's multiple criminal acts, voting to impeach and then the Senate voting not to convict... but then what?
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They have more investigative power with impeachment to uncover other crimes. Plus there is no way of knowing what could be uncovered that may switch some Republicans to vote for impeachment. Plus it makes Trump scared shitless which is a major plus
 
DrROBschiz

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,508
BoboBrazil said:
They have more investigative power with impeachment to uncover other crimes. Plus there is no way of knowing what could be uncovered that may switch some Republicans to vote for impeachment. Plus it makes Trump scared shitless which is a major plus
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Yeah putting pressure on Republicans to choose to flip or be forced to defend his conduct is the right play

Sure the Conservative media machine will churn out garbage as usual but thats what they would do anyways

Forcing conservative media to play defense for Trump actions instead of parrot fear mongering might work better in our favor
 
LegendofJoe

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,099
Arkansas, USA
Aaron said:


Save us, daddy

It's troubling that your only response to yesterday's news was to commend AG Barr. As we can all now read for ourselves, his summary and press conference were both deeply misleading - and we all know why.
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The fact that Jackson is directly calling out Tillis is a good sign that he's going to run against him. Wipe the floor with him Jeff! We need that Senate seat.
 

Deleted member 8561

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You think after this Greenwald will be rightfully never mentioned again or quoted on ERA?

Or am I having too much faith in people
 
Ziltoidia 9

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,148
I think since there are so many candidates, spotlights on them, and time left, Biden will only have a strong position until summer.
 
Blader

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,653
BoboBrazil said:
They have more investigative power with impeachment to uncover other crimes. Plus there is no way of knowing what could be uncovered that may switch some Republicans to vote for impeachment. Plus it makes Trump scared shitless which is a major plus
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DrROBschiz said:
Yeah putting pressure on Republicans to choose to flip or be forced to defend his conduct is the right play

Sure the Conservative media machine will churn out garbage as usual but thats what they would do anyways

Forcing conservative media to play defense for Trump actions instead of parrot fear mongering might work better in our favor
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OK, well if this all hinges on getting Republicans to switch, then I think that pretty much says it all!
 
EvilChameleon

EvilChameleon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,793
Ohio
If we lose in 2020 because of a quote unquote failed impeachment, so be it. I actually think him just being impeached and not removed from office will lower the amount of independents who would vote for him.
 
refusi0n1

refusi0n1

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Oct 27, 2017
5,941
So many posts in threads about how Trump's base will increase if there's a failed impeachment. Isn't it also possible the Dem base might rally and increase if people see that they are trying to hold potus accountable? Weren't the midterms evidence of that or was it all due to health care?
 

Deleted member 25712

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Blader said:
Who's arguing against continuing to investigate Trump's criminality? Impeachment isn't the only avenue for doing that and I haven't heard any Dem say they're closing up shop on investigations, hearings, et al. going forward.

But that is literally the determination for whether impeachment succeeds or fails.
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No, removal from office is one measure of success for impeachment. Other measures, like shoring up the pillars of democracy that are being eroded constantly by corrupt Republican hacks, are possible.

Impeachment is a tool. Tools can be used for multiple purposes. A baseball bat is meant hit baseballs. It can also be used to beat the fuck out of a home invader intending to do your family harm. If I use it for the latter successfully, that doesn't mean I struck out.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

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Oct 25, 2017
18,729
rec0ded1 said:
So many posts in threads about how Trump's base will increase if there's a failed impeachment. Isn't it also possible the Dem base might rally and increase if people see that they are trying to hold potus accountable? Weren't the midterms evidence of that or was it all due to health care?
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Democrats can't hope to stand up to Strong White Daddy's base because they are feeble and powerless. Women and minorities never succeed.
 
NihonTiger

NihonTiger

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Oct 25, 2017
10,534
rec0ded1 said:
So many posts in threads about how Trump's base will increase if there's a failed impeachment. Isn't it also possible the Dem base might rally and increase if people see that they are trying to hold potus accountable? Weren't the midterms evidence of that or was it all due to health care?
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TBH, health care was more important. It still is.
 

Deleted member 25712

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rec0ded1 said:
So many posts in threads about how Trump's base will increase if there's a failed impeachment. Isn't it also possible the Dem base might rally and increase if people see that they are trying to hold potus accountable? Weren't the midterms evidence of that or was it all due to health care?
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This is also frustrating as hell. Trump's a weak president. He's shown time and time again what a weakling he is. His own subordinates don't follow his orders. His major "accomplishments" are tax cuts for the 1% and corporations, trying to gut people's health care, and letting a white supremacist put babies in cages. Why are we afraid to go after these evil cunts? Because some MAGA hat wearing douche rolling coal might turn out to vote when he probably would anyway?
 
BoboBrazil

BoboBrazil

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At some point soon, Democratic leaders will have to reckon with the fact that the founders created the impeachment power for precisely this moment. That impeachment is their basic obligation. On a practical level, there's simply too much time between now and the election for them to avoid the confrontation altogether with stalling tactics. But more importantly if they try to run out the clock, or settle on the claim that impeachment just isn't worth it, they will do incalculable damage to themselves and the country.

This is not principally an argument about what constitutes sound political strategy—about what approach will galvanize whose base more. My biases tell me that impeaching Trump would inspire Democratic voters, and bog Republicans down with endless recitations of their party's hideous corruption. My biases tells me that running scared from the impeachment question would deflate many Democratic activists, by signaling to them that the party doesn't really consider Trump's presidency to be an emergency after all, and will refuse to hold his regime accountable for its crimes even if the next election goes well. But that could be wrong.
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The real importance of impeachment at this point is to shelter the country from what Trump and his allies will do if Democrats remain aimless. Democrats aren't really buying time for themselves. They are buying time for Trump to get the GOP back on its horribly dishonest but unified message that he has been exonerated and that the investigation itself was criminal. If Democrats don't pull the country into a debate about impeachment, we won't get a draw. We will get a debate about investigating the investigators and jailing Trump's critics. Cowardice creates a void that Trump will fill with autocratic ambition, and his crooked attorney general will be there to help.
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https://crooked.com/articles/democrats-impeachment-mueller/

Great article
 
Vic_Viper

Vic_Viper

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Oct 25, 2017
29,099
Have any Republicans come out against the president after the release of this report? Ive seen a lot of Matrix like question dodging and non answers, but I havent seen anyone actually show concern.

I cant believe the president of the United States said this is Bullshit on twitter lol. wtf.
 
Blader

Blader

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Oct 27, 2017
26,653
Thaedolus said:
No, removal from office is one measure of success for impeachment. Other measures, like shoring up the pillars of democracy that are being eroded constantly by corrupt Republican hacks, are possible.
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Those are one and the same. Failing to remove a president whose continued stay in office is an active threat to our country is not shoring up the pillars of our democracy.

To be clear -- I'm not against impeachment. I think taking it off the table this early, as Hoyer was doing yesterday, is stupid and unnecessary. If Nancy Pelosi came out on Monday saying Mueller has left us a clear roadmap for impeachment and we intend to follow it, my gut response probably wouldn't be "You fools! You've fallen right into Trump's trap!" And I certainly don't give a fuck about how Fox News or Trump's base would respond because their support for Trump is baked in no matter what happens. I'm just saying, it's hard for me to see the utility in a process that's doomed to fulfill what its central goal would be right from the outset. Doesn't mean I'm not open to supporting it, just that I think this is a little more nuanced than "Dems are weak and afraid of doing some hard work" when the problem with impeachment really doesn't lie with Dems at all, it lies with 20 Republican senators.
 
RDreamer

RDreamer

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Oct 25, 2017
14,114
Healthcare is a dead end now, too. Should we not do that? Of course Democrats can do both. Get hearings, go toward impeachment, talk about and come up with big healthcare proposals.
 

Deleted member 25712

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Blader said:
Those are one and the same. Failing to remove a president whose continued stay in office is an active threat to our country is not shoring up the pillars of our democracy.
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But you're ignoring all the other possible positive outcomes and my tool/baseball bat analogy that I was particularly proud of. Impeachment can be used for other things than removal from office, and those other things can result in bringing down some of the dumbasses working to suppress voting rights and representation from the white house to state legislatures. Use this process as a tool to get all these people on record for what they stand for. Use it as a tool to show what the Democrats stand for, and that they have a spine and will fight for what they stand for. Republicans voting against when the evidence is laid bare could be much more devastating to them than you think. Certainly moreso than just having news reports about what happened in a hearing today that seems inconsequential because there's no plan or threat to impeach...then letting them and all their pundits spin it.

And the biggest tell that impeachment is the right thing to do:

Republicans are warning Democrats not to do it. That should let you know what we should do.
 
IggyChooChoo

IggyChooChoo

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Oct 25, 2017
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One of my biggest problems with our system of government is how opaque things are when, say, legislation stalls due to the many, many veto points in the legislative process. It contributes to cynicism, both-sides-ism, and makes it hard for voters to properly assign blame and reward good governance.

In this case, if democrats abdicate our responsibility to impeach, it will make voters think we don't have the goods on Trump. That whatever he did wasn't that bad. If the GOP is responsible for this corruption, then we have to make it clear, in boldface letters, that they are the ones approving of his crimes. They are the ones letting him off the hook. It is both the right thing to do and good politics.
 
Zeno

Zeno

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Oct 25, 2017
9,150
IggyChooChoo said:
One of my biggest problems with our system of government is how opaque things are when, say, legislation stalls due to the many, many veto points in the legislative process. It contributes to cynicism, both-sides-ism, and makes it hard for voters to properly assign blame and reward good governance.

In this case, if democrats abdicate our responsibility to impeach, it will make voters think we don't have the goods on Trump. That whatever he did wasn't that bad. If the GOP is responsible for this corruption, then we have to make it clear, in boldface letters, that they are the ones approving of his crimes. They are the ones letting him off the hook. It is both the right thing to do and good politics.
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Pretty much. If Dems start the impeachment process, they need to make it clear they don't think it will result in Trump facing consequences due to Republicans covering for him.
 

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Zeno said:
Pretty much. If Dems start the impeachment process, they need to make it clear they don't think it will result in Trump facing consequences due to Republicans covering for him.
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Exactly. Message from the beginning that you expect the Republicans to be chickenshit party loyalists that are going to shirk responsibility to check their president, then say I told you so when they do just that.
 
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