For starters, the thread is only five pages. Stop being a 50ppp heathen.If there wasn't a staff post, this thread would be 30 pages long instead of 9 by now. Got everyone scared to have a discussion.
This.For starters, the thread is only five pages. Stop being a 50ppp heathen.
If there was no staff post, there would pages and pages of people posting shit like: "I would say this is the right decision right now." or "Makes sense." and never returning to the thread. Don't pretend like we are missing out on some brilliant discourse.
It would be like every other thread concerning the trans community. Page after page of the same ignorant argument being constantly corrected by a handful of people who have far too much patience.
But as I stated earlier, if you people disagree with the staff post they are more than welcome to post a sound argument that is backed up with facts. But no one wants to do that because they would rather complain about the staff.
" If you are supporting trans athletes going around this historical standard then it seems you would also be in support of no gender lines in sports at all. What would a sports landscape of that nature look like? "
This, to me, reads like you're saying men who have transitioned to a woman should compete in the category of men. But maybe I'm just reading that completely wrong? If I'm reading it wrong, I do apologize. Didn't have a lot of sleep last night.
For starters, the thread is only five pages. Stop being a 50ppp heathen.
If there was no staff post, there would pages and pages of people posting shit like: "I would say this is the right decision right now." or "Makes sense." and never returning to the thread. Don't pretend like we are missing out on some brilliant discourse.
It would be like every other thread concerning the trans community. Page after page of the same ignorant argument being constantly corrected by a handful of people who have far too much patience.
But as I stated earlier, if you people disagree with the staff post they are more than welcome to post a sound argument that is backed up with facts. But no one wants to do that because they would rather complain about the staff.
Please kindly elaborate on what's wrong with what I said.
There are sports where segregation is fine and there's sports where it's not.Please kindly elaborate on what's wrong with what I said.
I honestly see no reason why there's even gender segregation in sports.
Well no, not really.But as I stated earlier, if you people disagree with the staff post they are more than welcome to post a sound argument that is backed up with facts. But no one wants to do that because they would rather complain about the staff.
There are sports where segregation is fine and there's sports where it's not.
Do you really think it would be fine to have women 100m runners compete with men? But for example I dont understand why sharpshooting is gendered.You should elaborate on this with the sports where its fine or not.
You would be virtually eliminating all women champions and competition by doing so. Men would dominate their similarly weight/height women counterparts by a lot. Look at current world records by weight and there are vast differences between similarly weighted men and women.Please kindly elaborate on what's wrong with what I said.
I honestly see no reason why there's even gender segregation in sports.
What valid reason is there to justify gender segregation in any sports? I'm genuinely asking.There are sports where segregation is fine and there's sports where it's not.
While it would seem like a good idea to not have separate divisions for men and women, it would (at some sports, not all) eliminate women champions.What valid reason is there to justify gender segregation in any sports? I'm genuinely asking.
Here is a short video the people in this thread who believe an advantage is prevelant can watch instead of being abrasive.
Please elaborate. What sports and why would it eliminate women champions?While it would seem like a good idea to not have separate divisions for men and women, it would (at some sports, not all) eliminate women champions.
Sigh. Have you not read the thread, or even this page?Please elaborate. What sports and why would it eliminate women champions?
Please elaborate. What sports and why would it eliminate women champions?
Come on man, there is a wealth of information on site regarding trans issues. There have been multiple threads about the bigotry the trans community faces, there's and entire Hangout folks can read.I do not disagree with the staff post, I just accept there is more to be discussed here. There is a deeper discussion to be had, but I'd imagine a lot of people, myself included, do not want to go further down that path due to possible misinterpretation. Not like you'll get 24 hrs to come back and explain a point that might be taken wrong.
And as I wrote, if you disagree, disprove but use facts and actually proof instead just writing "It's just genetics that trans women have an athletic advantage over cis women." Backup your argument with facts.Well no, not really.
I agree that the "good decision" posts are worthless, but the warning explicitly states that any post suggesting trans women have a genetic advantage over cis women will be treated as transphobic. There's no qualifier in there about making a "sound argument".
Yup, equestrian sports are one where having women not compete with men is super silly. Also I think there's some equestrian sports where there's teams that consist of both men and women. The men do the lifting etc. And like I said, sharpshooting (but I think in some events men compete with women in this?).Almost every physical sport? Besides maybe sports revolving around dancing or aerobics? Which I'd still be skeptical of since men can perform more powerful flips/jumps. I'm really trying hard to think of a sport that would be not affected.
edit: found one :P
I disagree. I don't see why men would dominate physical sports if the sports is segregated by height and/or weight.Almost every physical sport? Besides maybe sports revolving around dancing or aerobics? Which I'd still be skeptical of since men can perform more powerful flips/jumps. I'm really trying hard to think of a sport that would be not affected.
edit: found one :P
Please elaborate. What sports and why would it eliminate women champions?
I disagree. I don't see why men would dominate physical sports if the sports is segregated by height and/or weight.
And as that moderator wrote, policy is that ANY post which disagrees will be actioned as transphobic.And as I wrote, if you disagree, disprove but use facts and actually proof instead just writing "It's just genetics that trans women have an athletic advantage over cis women." Backup your argument with facts.
Did you even read the Wikipedia link discussing the vast strength differences between men and women, among other things? How about you look at just world class rankings in general and compare the best men of a certain weight class to their woman counterparts and see the glaring gap that shows there? Someone was posting stats from it earlier.I disagree. I don't see why men would dominate physical sports if the sports is segregated by height and/or weight.
I just want to comment on this. If someone actually ever tried to go this route 99% of sports would be Men only. Dominated only by men. That's not an exaggeration and not a knock on women, just reality. I actually prefer to watch some women sports to men sports like hockey, volleyball, and ping pong, but they couldn't compete. At all.
From olympic sports I can just think of Gymnastics and synchronized swimming where women could compete in their specific events. Think about sports like soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc. No chance for women. Diana Taurasi couldn't even make the cut in the D League. Carli Lloyd couldn't make the cut in the USL III. And I really like both of those ladies' games.
If you think of major contact sports like MMA, boxing, Rugby, Olympic Wrestling, etc there's even less of a chance that women are anywhere even in the middle divisions as per your idea. Gender needs to separate in sports for obvious reason, same as weight for certain sports. The reason some girls can compete with guys in HS wrestling, for example, is because boys are not yet fully developed. A 135lb man is significantly different than a 135lb boy. And one of my favorite wrestlers ever is a female (Maroulis).
Would that be fair? Sure if you want men to dominate all sports, probably the top 10 tiers or whatever.
Even that is not really that competitive when you talk about World championships events. This is the winning and last place from the last worlds.
5K
M - Winning: 54:31.4, 61st: 1:06:01.6
W - Winning: 59:07, 57th: 1:11:55.7
49 Men faster than the winning gold for women's. All over 1 minute faster
10K
M - Winning: 1:51:58.5, 65th: 2:15:41.2
W - Winning: 2:00:13.7, 57th: 2:28:21.8
51 Men faster than the winning gold medal for women's
25K
M - Winning: 5:02:46.4, 25th: 5:49:57.5
W - Winning: 5:21:58.4, 19th: 6:05:20.0
21 Men faster than the winning gold medal for women's
Or the US Women's soccer team who were beaten soundly by a U-15 or U-16 squad IIRC. His idea would get rid of an amazing olympic wrestler and multiple time world champion like Adeline Gray. She'd be going up against the likes of Jordan Burroughs, who would thoroughly dominate her without breaking a sweat. Totally unfair. Or can you imagine Max Holloway vs Amanda Nunes? Who would want to see that?
We've been talking about this. You're pretty much excluding women from any and all competition. Here's a couple of other examples.
2016 Olympic games track and field 100 meter
Women's gold medal - 10.71
Men who ran as fast or slower than that after the preliminary round - 4 (That is, after the preliminary round every single man except 4, ran faster than the gold medal winner. 65 Men ran faster than the women's gold medal winner.)
2017 Fina World Championships
The unbeatable Katie Ledecky. Really she's amazing. The Michael Phelps of Women's swimming. No one can touch her in the 800 and 1500M.
800M
Ledecky - 8:12.68
M - 27 men swam faster than Ledecky's gold winning time. 23 men swam faster than her WR time that was set at a previous event.
1500M
Ledecky - 15:31.82
M - 32 men swam faster than Ledecky's gold winning time. 27 men swam faster than her WR time that was set at a previous event.
I honestly can't believe you guys are as naive as suggesting this unless you just want men competing and women to not have a platform to compete in at a high level.
You underestimate how much the difference is in professional sports.
The fastest woman in 2018 in the 100m run isn't even in the Top1043 of men for example. (which are all recorded male runs in the last year: https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-ti...=false&firstDay=2018-01-01&lastDay=2018-12-31)
The slowest male swimmers are still seconds ahead of even the fastest woman. https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/swimming/100m-freestyle-men https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/swimming/100m-freestyle-women
That would be horrible idea as men naturally have higher portion of their body weight muscle so even with similar weights men outperform women.
Example from Rio Olympics:
Men 56kg winning result: Snatch: 137kg, Clean & Jerk: 170kg Total = 307kg
Women 58kg (so 2kg of advantage even) winning result: Snatch 110kg, Clean & Jerk: 130kg Total = 240kg
I disagree. I don't see why men would dominate physical sports if the sports is segregated by height and/or weight.
I get this, but how long does it take for those changes to happen?
For example, lets say I'm born a male and I've been wrestling since I was 8 years old and started lifting weights in middle school. Then, I begin my transition in my senior year of high school and have been on hormone therapy for a week. Is it ok for me to compete with the cis gender females in wrestling? Would I have any type of advantage?
There has to be a certain point, right?
They might have been the same height but I doubt they were the same weight.The fastest 100m woman runner, Florence Griffith-Joyner is 1,7m tall and a man, who is the top 14th of all time Mike Rodgers is also 1,7m tall is almost a 1 second faster than the fastest woman. There's more to being competetive than height or weight. To put that into perspective, the fastest woman would be about 10 metres behind the 14th fastest man who is the same height.
2 years on HRT as far as I am aware.
This info is all in here too. And every trans sport thread has it.
I think in order to have this discussion you crave you need to be aware about such things before you construct arguments like in your post.
Should we ban genetically gifted men to compete with other average men to give them a chance to win too?Whether there is a history of it or not doesn't really change the issue. In a weight lifting contest, someone who is genetically/physically a man is going to have a massive advantage over a woman.
They might have been the same height but I doubt they were the same weight.
It's either the Olympics segregate all sports or segregate none. Selectively choosing seems discriminatory to me and it's good to be consistent. Also what about the people who don't identify as either man nor woman, they're pretty much forced to identify as man /woman in order to compete, which I think it's unfair and not inclusive. By banning gender segregation, everyone can compete. Makes it more interesting in my opinion.
Should we ban genetically gifted men to compete with other average men to give them a chance to win too?
Weight class is more important than sex in this regard.
Marion Jones, who is 178cm tall and weight about 68-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 10,65 seconds. Nesta Carter who is 178cm and 69-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 9,78.They might have been the same height but I doubt they were the same weight.
It's either the Olympics segregate all sports or segregate none. Selectively choosing seems discriminatory to me and it's good to be consistent. Also what about the people who don't identify as either man nor woman, they're pretty much forced to identify as man /woman in order to compete, which I think it's unfair and not inclusive. By banning gender segregation, everyone can compete. Makes it more interesting in my opinion.
How can one conclusively dismiss the physiology debate when trans women athletes are breaking records left and right, all over the world?
Examples?How can one conclusively dismiss the physiology debate when trans women athletes are breaking records left and right, all over the world?
Well, I think we're on a forum where the best moments happen when one learns. If I was to know everything why would I even bother posting here? I'm here to read posts from people who are more knowledgeable and help me progress. If I've missed a post answering my question, then tie me to a cross and burn me in hell? I don't get your point.
If it takes 2 years on hormone therapy then I think that's the answer to this situation.
Your question was very valid. But that example just frames trans people as completely unreasonable.
I was also under the impression you read most of he thread since you argued the discussion suffered from the mod decision.
But I might have been needlessly hostile so I apologize for that.
You're the one who said it, so please, show examples. If you're gonna make a sweeping statement like that, I would love for you to back it up.
I disgree. I think by segregating by height/weight/mass, all genders ( cis men, cis women, trans and non-binary) will fairly compete and more so it's inclusive.By banning gender segregation you eliminate women from being able to compete for top spots almost entirely... might as well just defund all women's high school sports and tell all those little girls that look up to Serena Williams that she actually sucks because she would lose easily to any random top 200+ ranked male in tennis. This is the world you would create. Virtually devoid of any woman sport role models entirely. No thank you.
Fair enough but that could just mean that Nesta is a better athlete than Marion, and not that men are better than women. I'm pretty sure there are examples where a woman with the same attributes is faster than a man with similar attributes.Marion Jones, who is 178cm tall and weight about 68-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 10,65 seconds. Nesta Carter who is 178cm and 69-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 9,78.
Are you just not reading the facts being presented to you in this thread? Science and fact. These are not made up numbers being posted here showing you the comparison of women and men in sports (even at the same weight). And omg the last part of your post.... I can't anymore.I disgree. I think by segregating by height/weight/mass, all genders ( cis men, cis women, trans and non-binary) will fairly compete and more so it's inclusive.
I also think by saying men are better than women in sports, you're in a way supporting transphobic people because that's the same logic they use.
This is not a matter up for debate. The results between men and women competing in the same sport speak for themselves. There's nothing to "disagree" to here unless you're just ignoring the data.I disgree. I think by segregating by height/weight/mass, all genders ( cis men, cis women, trans and non-binary) will fairly compete and more so it's inclusive.
I also think by saying men are better than women in sports, you're in a way supporting transphobic people because that's the same logic they use.
While it might be that Nesta was just purely better, but there are other woman runners who fit the description I described. Christine Arron is also about the same height and weight as Nesta and she ran 100m slower than Marion. I just can't understand how you can argue against the fact that there are physiological differences between men and women.Fair enough but that could just mean that Nesta is a better athlete than Marion, and not that men are better than women. I'm pretty sure there are examples where a woman with the same attributes is faster than a man with similar attributes.
American Football? Just imagine a 5 foot 11 inch , 190 lb RB Saquon Barkley in high school colliding with defensive line Berlin Montepeque who is 5 foot 6 inch at 150 lbs. Don't think she would stand a chance in hell in blocking him.What valid reason is there to justify gender segregation in any sports? I'm genuinely asking.
That's not.... are you trolling?I disgree. I think by segregating by height/weight/mass, all genders ( cis men, cis women, trans and non-binary) will fairly compete and more so it's inclusive.
I also think by saying men are better than women in sports, you're in a way supporting transphobic people because that's the same logic they use.
God I hope so.