Visual downgrades

[Secretofmateria]

The past decade saw a lot of controversy surrounding the lower fidelity of visuals in games compared to their press conference or trailer counterparts. Examples of this were; the division, watchdogs, anthem, aliens colonial marines, bioshock infinite, rainbow six siege, Dark souls 2, the witcher 3, final fantasy xv, and most famously, no mans sky. i dont expect cyberpunk to look anything like its first showing, which is fine because they have been pretty transparent about that.

This happens for a variety of reasons, time and budget, target hardware that simply isn't beefy enough to match. In some instances, as ive learned from this VG24/7Article https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vg247.com/2018/12/18/why-video-game-downgrades-happen/amp/

They can even happen because of marketing deals with console makers to ensure visual parity. Either way, though the reasons behind them are understandable, they are none the less disappointing. No mans sky is a great game now, but im still yearning for the no mans sky that was announced in late 2013.

I loved and platinumed ffxv, but i still want the ffxv that was shown at e3 2013. Do you guys think we will see less of these downgrades in the next generation or will the hype cycle ensure we get representations of unacheivable visuals on modern console hard ware.

 

[LewieP]

Can't see it ever going away. It is a marketing problem not a technology problem. Developers and publishers will always want to show off their games before the game is really ready to be shown off in a manner that is totally representative of the final product.

 

[2CL4Mars]

This gonna be good.

It's for us to decide if we want to believe what we are shown, especially at the start of a new generation, be realistic and hope for the best.

 

[Sub Boss]

Sometimes it depends on the developers talents and budget because maybe that FFXV E3 trailer isn't possible on current gen, but the final game could have been a lot more interesting still

 

[Swift_Gamer]

Don't really care as long as the final product is good. FFXV simply wasn't.
Edit: I like visual parity tbh. You're paying the same on all platforms, you should get the same regardless. Unless it's something like the switch that is underpowered, this version should be cheaper.

 

[chandoog]

Can't see it ever going away. It is a marketing problem not a technology problem. Developers and publishers will always want to show off their games before the game is really ready to be shown off in a manner that is totally representative of the final product.

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Exactly what I came into the thread to say.

Publishers always want to put their best foot forward even if it turns out that during the course of the development of their game, that goal can't realistically be met (eg Uncharted 4's supposed in-engine 60 FPS announcement trailer).

 

[poofynamanama2]

Don't really care as long as the final product is good. FFXV simply wasn't.

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This. Why people get fixated on stupid shit like this is beyond me.

With game development comes optimization and therefore, graphical changes. Do people not understand this?

 

[Secretofmateria]

This gonna be good.

It's for us to decide if we want to believe what we are shown, especially at the start of a new generation, be realistic and hope for the best.

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sorry im not trying to rile folks up, just want to have an honest discussion on the realities behind visual downgrades. As it seems to be recurring. I tend to be able to say thats real or thats fake at a glance but its dissapointing that we need to be like that in the first place

 

[kadotsu]

Vertical slices are made on high end hardware and devs try as hard as they can to predict what they can target on real hardware. That's why you see so much of it at generation transitions. It would help if the community could stop being performatively aggrieved by "false advertising". Stuff changes, deal with it, if you are paranoid about getting "ripped off" use Twitch and youtube, which literally show you the entire game in its finished state before buying.

 

[Duffking]

Issue is a marketing one, really. Devs typically aren't trying to mislead anyone, it's just easier to author assets at a high quality initially and pare back once you really need to hit performance targets. The problem is showing footage too early, really.

 

[Mona]

BioShock Infinite hit pretty hard, what in gods name were they thinking

 

[Swift_Gamer]

sorry im not trying to rile folks up, just want to have an honest discussion on the realities behind visual downgrades. As it seems to be recurring. I tend to be able to say thats real or thats fake at a glance but its dissapointing that we need to be like that in the first place

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Downgrades have always existed and always will. Projects change, it's just how things are. You can intend to have something and then have to scale it down due to several reasons. This happens not only in gaming but in every single area of life.

 

[Tyaren]

Don't forget abut Spider-Man and all the beautiful puddles they downgraded, no, removed entirely.

 

[rusty chrome]

This is why games shouldn't be shown too early. Visual changes are always bound to happen.

 

[Secretofmateria]

Issue is a marketing one, really. Devs typically aren't trying to mislead anyone, it's just easier to author assets at a high quality initially and pare back once you really need to hit performance targets. The problem is showing footage too early, really.

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thats a good point, it could stem from a larger issue of games being announced too early. I like that capcom has been pretty consistent this gen by announcing games close to launch with visuals that accuratley represent the game on modern hardware. I wonder if more pubs could take that route, or is it more lucrative (pre-orders and what not) to announce games much earlier

 

[Mesoian]

As long as we continue to get excited over big press events that are reliant on hype and surprise in order to be successful, there will always be visual downgrades. It's about marketing, not any sort of real benchmark of what or where a game is.

 

[Prefty]

Honestly, its the price to pay if we want to see work in progress, not even the developers can exactly know how their game is going to look until a certain time in the development process, we almost always see material from before that time, the problem is when the devs are silent about it, they should just tell us and everything would be ok.

 

[Manu]

This is why games shouldn't be shown too early. Visual changes are always bound to happen.

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And then you have cases like Dark Souls 2 where the downgrade happened to close to release that the trailers still used the old footage when the game came out.

 

[Secretofmateria]

And then you have cases like Dark Souls 2 where the downgrade happened to close to release that the trailers still used the old footage when the game came out.

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that one was...particularly egregious. Were they unable to get that lighting to work properly on the ps3 and 360?

 

[Deleted member 26746]

"target render" on every trailer should avoid all the problems

 

[BAD]

It's impossible to show a demo early enough to boost investments and pre-sales, but late enough that the vertical slice is guaranteed identical to the game at large. They want the money before they spend their own to get it on shelves.

 

[CRIMSON-XIII]

umm.

IMO FFXV at launch is way better than the build from e3 2013. Yes Leviathan fight and airships looked cooler, but still.

The 2014 tech demos for XV are largely what the visuals were. Luminous will be a great engine if they continue it into nextgen.

What frustrated me for the last 2-3 years was that Ubisoft was basically showing nextgen games for 2020 and beyond and advertising it as PS4. I get it. I just think that Gods and Monsters, Beyond Good and Evil 2, Skull and Bones, and other games were talked about earlier than they should have been. Square Enix is not even that bad despite their dev issues at times or taking a while.

 

[MP!]

it's not so much marketing but that the scope grows over time and sacrifices will always need to be made as the game gets more and more dense and resources become limited.

Early prototypes don't have all the systems in place and as more and more systems come into play it leaves less room for the visuals... to save on bandwidth visuals are reduced .. be it framerates, texture resolution, no matter how many resources available it will always be a balancing act involving cpu calls, frame buffers, memory limits and data streaming in general.

I don't think it's disingenuous in most cases either... developers dream big and then chisel away at the block of stone until the vision becomes reality. There will ultimately be rough edges no matter how much power you've got. This is a natural part of game development.

 

[LakeEarth]

One thing I hate is when people take two screenshots from different locations, at a different time of day in-game, and use it as evidence of a downgrade. Never mind how disingenuous that is, if you need that sort of comparison to "prove" a downgrade, it must not actually be that big of one.

 

[Secretofmateria]

umm.

IMO FFXV at launch is way better than the build from e3 2013. Yes Leviathan fight and airships looked cooler, but still.

The 2014 tech demos for XV are largely what the visuals were. Luminous will be a great engine if they continue it into nextgen.

What frustrated me for the last 2-3 years was that Ubisoft was basically showing nextgen games for 2020 and beyond and advertising it as PS4. I get it. I just think that Gods and Monsters, Beyond Good and Evil 2, Skull and Bones, and other games were talked about earlier than they should have been. Square Enix is not even that bad despite their dev issues at times or taking a while.

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i think the thing in xv is that it just seemed...larger in scope earlier than it ended up being? Still a big game for sure though

 

[EvilBoris]

As long as consumers overwhelmingly respond to shiny graphics above and beyond anything else, the longer this will continue to happen.

 

[Indy in the Fridge]

Visual downgrades happen because studios are often forced to present a heavily curated vertical slice of gameplay from a game nowhere near completion. It's false advertising to a certain extent, but how can we blame studios when publishers have their proverbial foot on the developer's neck.

 

[Deleted member 22585]

First presentations of games oftentimes show off the devs target / vision. Then time, resource management, budget, technical issues etc kick in.
Also, it's often just marketing - even internally, to convince the decision makers inside the company to provide as many resources as possible.

Those factors won't change next gen. So we will still see it.

 

[capitalCORN]

If the target graphics were met to the detriment of FPS the shitshow would be much bigger.

 

[CRIMSON-XIII]

i think the thing in xv is that it just seemed...larger in scope earlier than it ended up being? Still a big game for sure though

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That is one thing, visuals and effects and characters looking worse is another.

XV issues in the world and story were about time. If they had more time (the dlc proved this), they would have included a bigger Altissia, water traversal and more continents. Later on in the last third of the game, it got linear and

Spoiler: FFXV

went ahead in time story wise further alienating a post game experience in the traditional sense .. (Yes, i know you can go back to the earlier areas)

I just think overall though, it looked amazing. The next FF with luminous , if it takes the exploration and dialogue while exploring, and includes a flashier more epic combat, we are in for a treat. It will be a better story

 

[Listai]

The most egregious instance was the Dos version of Tintin on the Moon.

That shit was a CGA game that had Amiga screenshots on the back. I'll never forgive you infogrames!

 

[z1ggy]

I'm still salty about Dark Souls II downgrade and yes, it will happen again

 

[Kiekura]

As long as game still looks good, i dont care. Like Uncharted 4 or Gears 5

 

[Kuro]

Puddlegate was one of the funniest things this gen.

 

[ckareset]

I don't mind downgrades as long as they show us the downgrade before the game is released

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

Who could forget puddlegate. The dumbest of all downgrade fights.

 

[LewieP]

"target render" on every trailer should avoid all the problems

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[Secretofmateria]

Puddlegate was one of the funniest things this gen.

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it wasn't just about puddles, there were some other things like slightly higher texture quality and better shadows, but it wasn't a big enough deal to really get fussy over, that i agree with

 

[Cloud-Strife]

Anthem and FF XV for me.

I remember a FF XV demo with water effects and combat that looked incredible.. well it was actually something impossible to do with the current tech on consoles.

 

[SRTtoZ]

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That still looks so good. Such a shame the game turned out the way it did.

 

[Deleted member 6539]

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"Everything was captured in-game running in real time."

This is probably the most egregious example.

 

[Blade Wolf]

I am still kinda sad about the Witcher 3, the E3 trailers looked insanely good.

Maybe they will release a Witcher 3 Enhanced Edition on next gen, maybe.
Those visuals shouldn't go to waste.

 

[capitalCORN]

"Everything was captured in-game running in real time."

This is probably the most egregious example.

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People made a mountain out of Killzone 2, but like any of those trailers were straight up bullshit. Fucking Motorstorm, Starhawk and Tekken?

 

[Blade Wolf]

I don't mind downgrades as long as they show us the downgrade before the game is released

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This. Dark Souls 2 was especially infuriating because it pulled a stealth downgrade on us. Even the gameplay footage released just few days before launch looked better & different than the final product.

It was straight up false advertising and I am still pissed about it.
This was before Miyazaki took over FromSoftware.

 

[Elhav]

Reminds me of this:

I don't expect it to change, unless it becomes illegal or something

 

[CHC]

Just another one of many things that always brings out the worst in the gaming "community." Take marketing with a grain of salt, like how do people not know this by now?

 

[mclem]

Vertical slices are an unfortunate reality of the process of making and marketing games, they are going to happen and it's not necessarily a grossly egregious crime if they do. But it can be, and what we've heard about the behind-the-scenes of that Anthem trailer was particularly unpleasant.

However, I do certainly appreciate it when it's presented in an honest way; calling it a target render is fine. And I think the specificity of the terms used to describe the Hellblade 2 reveal are encouraging ("Early in development" ... "What you are about to see was all captured in-engine as being built to take full advantage of Xbox Series X")... as long as people are careful to read exactly what's being stated there!

What I think I'd love to see more than that, though, would be a reveal that is explicitly outlined as what they're targetting... and then, closer to release, exactly the same trailer but running completely in-engine. Embrace the changes, acknowledge them, and it's less likely to be perceived as subterfuge.

 

[mavericktopgun]

Watch Dogs and Anthem Thread.

Oh and does someone remember Command and Conquer 3?

 

[SugarNoodles]

This is why trailers should just all be CG. Trailers sell concepts, not gameplay. Even gameplay trailers don't give an accurate depiction of how the game *feels* to play.

Especially when you consider that it takes gameplay several hours to really feel like it does for the majority of the games course.

CG concept trailers are way more exciting.

 

[Griffith]

This. Dark Souls 2 was especially infuriating because it pulled a stealth downgrade on us. Even the gameplay footage released just few days before launch looked better & different than the final product.

It was straight up false advertising and I am still pissed about it.
This was before Miyazaki took over FromSoftware.

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It's worse than that. There were photos using the old lighting engine on the storefront page. It seems that has been fixed with SotFS' store page but for the original game the misleading images remained there the entire time the game was sold.