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VRR support rolling out for PS5 now. System level support as well as per title updates
- Thread starter ItsBradazHD
- Start date
I read on Twitter that John Linneman (Dark1x, Digital Foundry) said that it's best to avoid 60fps on a 120Hz container as it added some blur (or something else, I can't find that tweet anymore, it was a reply to someone)
Does anyone know more about this ? If it's blur, does it apply to OLED too ?
Does anyone know more about this ? If it's blur, does it apply to OLED too ?
This is the tweet and was quite misleading, as pointed out by Blur Buster quote:
More Blur Buster explanations in the tweet comments.
So yeah, just try by yourself depending on your device and settings.
Was this posted already? This is the same experience I have, no LFC below 48fps even if the game runs in 120hz mode.
I don't get why people keep saying that LFC is working and have no examples to back it up.
I don't get why people keep saying that LFC is working and have no examples to back it up.
Weird. Maybe it's something the PS5 just doesn't do? Since it's something that the GPU takes care of, not the display.
Hm if that's the only thing holding it back, I'll happily take the compromise. 4:2:2 is no big deal for me.
This however, would be bad ... I do hope PlayStation engineers had the foresight to avoid this (or the competence to solve it at the system level).
The vast majority of PS4 games run at their target framerates. It's really not needed for PS4 games
Why do people insist on this so vehemently? It may only help with a couple of titles, but for those few it would still be great.
Because it's probably not worth the engineering or development resources for the three or four titles
Wouldn't make any difference even if the game are capped to 30/60 but you have a 120hz monitor?
Why? shouldn't be the similar to the the "apply to unsupported ps5 games" as the console just run them natively i guess
Let that be Sony's problem. And if it's just a "force at your own risk" option like boost mode, I don't know if it would take that much effort.
That's not what LGD said:
(source)
There are quite a few things LGD can do to significantly mitigate the underlying issue.
Some of them may require a different control of the (sub)pixels, which of course cannot be done so easily via software update for existing models.
However, this is certainly possible for upcoming models. Whether LGD will make a corresponding change is, of course, another question.
I don't see Bandai adding it at this point but I wish Tales of Arise would get official VRR support, the performance mode is fine but graphics mode still runs like dog shit. :(
Without appropriate special tools, it is not so easy to tell by pure observation whether LFC is working as it should.
Unfortunately, the YouTuber you linked has already made many mistakes and false statements in the past regarding VRR and LFC, he says it himself that he is not familiar with the technology behind it.
Don't get me wrong, he may indeed be showing a problem with the PS5's LFC implementation, but he can't make the statement that LFC doesn't work at all.
Let's take a look at the frame rates in his video:
50 -> 48 -> 118 -> 47 -> 118 -> 76 -> 50 -> 118 -> 73 -> 118 -> 67 -> 118 -> 72 -> 118 -> 71 -> 47
These values are an indication that LFC does work to a certain extent. The values in the 70s range are most likely due to render speeds around 35 FPS rather than actually being 70FPS. Jumps from 47 -> 118 -> 76 support this thesis, which actually may correspond to a fluctuating rendering rate like 47 -> ~35 -> 38.
However, every FreeSync implementation from AMD deactivates variable frame times (including LFC) when falling below a certain frequency / exceeding a certain frame time.
And from the looks of it, that lower limit is set relatively high on the PS5, similar to the lower VRR limit.
Looking at the numbers above, it looks like LFC on the PS5 is only active in the range between 35 and 48Hz. Of course, this may lead to judder in games with strongly fluctuating frame times, despite LFC being active.
I must emphasize once again: without special tools or a controlled test environment, however, this cannot be said with conclusive certainty.
We would need something like the Pendulum Demo with which we can determine the parameters of the rendering output ourselves.
As a side note:
LFC is not just a simple multiple output of the same rendered frame. LFC implementations try to make the transitions of the frame times as smooth as possible. I.e. it tries to compensate for sudden jumps in frame times, which lead to clearly visible judder.
As an example, a game outputting with a fluctuating frame rate like 30fps -> 35fps -> 25fps -> 35fps musn't necessarily cause a frame rate of 60 -> 70 -> 50 -> 70 but sth. more smooth. (using frametimes would actually be better to explain this but I want to keep it simple)
The technically savvy can look at AMD's FreeSync implementation including LFC in the Linux drivers, which are open source.
I'll try and break it down and keep it simple. Basically, for what you want for a smooth framerate is for the amount of frames being displayed every second to stay on screen for the same amount of time. That's why 30 and 60 FPS are the standard as at 60FOS there's 60 unique frames displayed every second, and at 30FPS each frame is displayed twice which is still nice and even.
40FPS on a 60Hz display wouldn't appear smooth as 60 doesn't divide evenly by 40. But in a 120hz display 40FPS would mean each frame is displayed 4 times every second and would give make for a smoothly displayed framerate.
So 40FPS really has nothing to do with VRR and will look smooth in any console and display at 120hz.
VRR removes the barrier of having to lock a screen to a certain refresh rate and means that you can display anywhere from (on PS5) 48-120 frames per second evenly.
What VRR on PS5 does in 40FPS mode is it removes the hard lock so the framerate can potentially fluctuate higher than 40FPS. So, for example, if a game was on average running at 50FPS that would look terrible on a 60Hz screen and devs would most likely choose to lock that framerate to 30FPS. But now with VRR devs can leave the game uncapped and running at an average of 50FPS and that will still appear smooth.
Hope that helps.
Yes, it hit on 4/26. It doesn't remove the 60fps ceiling in any of the two graphic modes though.
It's actually the other way around. With VRR, the source (GPU) is no longer forced to deliver a full frame to be displayed at fixed intervals.
The pixel clock of the signal and scanout time remain constant with VRR. I.e. a display will still be "locked" to a certain refresh rate causing a frame to be displayed with a constant scanout time. What the source with VRR does is to put the display into a "hold" state after a frame until it is ready to send the next frame.
E.g. the scanout time of the display will always be ~8.3ms for a 120Hz signal, no matter how many actual frames a source delivers with VRR.
Not many. The bulk of 60 fps games are brute forced to 60. The few that drop would benefit, unless it dropped below 48.
And it wouldn't do a thing for 30 fps games.
The DF Weekly podcast is now up for everyone!
Time codes (since as Grandfather informs me, it is the internet and you are busy)
Time stamped to that section, so it should play right there.
Fake edit: Damn! Missed it by that much!
Time codes (since as Grandfather informs me, it is the internet and you are busy)
I might change these to time-stamped links here in a bit...
VRR chat.
Starts at 1:03
2:32
Why per-game patching is also a good thing (in addition to being system-wide).
3:48
Elden Ring specific talk
6:42
"I think we should talk about Insomniac games."
12:10
Questions from supporters
"Why is there judder in some PS5 games when they're still within the VRR range?"
15:43
Questions from supporters
"Is VRR relevant to console gaming? Games all seem to have modes to lock to 30 or 60.
17:38
Questions from supporters
"Drawbacks from using VRR"
19:58
Questions from supporters
Why VRR is helpful in games even when they're hitting 60 (latency relevant)
21:10
"Does this fix Bloodborne?"
23:03
VRR section end
VRR chat.
Starts at 1:03
2:32
Why per-game patching is also a good thing (in addition to being system-wide).
3:48
Elden Ring specific talk
6:42
"I think we should talk about Insomniac games."
12:10
Questions from supporters
"Why is there judder in some PS5 games when they're still within the VRR range?"
15:43
Questions from supporters
"Is VRR relevant to console gaming? Games all seem to have modes to lock to 30 or 60.
17:38
Questions from supporters
"Drawbacks from using VRR"
19:58
Questions from supporters
Why VRR is helpful in games even when they're hitting 60 (latency relevant)
21:10
"Does this fix Bloodborne?"
23:03
VRR section end
Time stamped to that section, so it should play right there.
Fake edit: Damn! Missed it by that much!
Last edited:
Elden Ring (PS4) would run flawlessly on it. That would be enough for me.
If I understood John correctly, as far as LFC is concerned, that's something Insomniac is doing that's enabled by the patch and not something that works across the board for all games like some people here have been saying.
What do you mean? It only works for fidelity mode in Ratchet and that's due to the patch. LFC isn't otherwise available at all and it's not part of the performance modes either.
Well, if you want to provide some examples of where it is working then that would be nice.
The more I test this with Insomniac games, the more impressed I am. It's a real game changer.
Yo, John. Glad to see you here.
Yo, John. Glad to see you here.
LFC works directly at GPU level without the software needing to do anything.
Sure, you can take the video above as proof.
You also can do a simple trick.
Take an unsupported game at 60Hz with a fidelity mode that runs at fixed 30fps (so LFC can kick in at 30fps or lower). You can use Ghostwire Tokyo as an example.
Engage the VRR display information menu on your 2020 or above LG OLED. Try to go to an area of the game where fps drops occur (if it drops at least 1 fps is enough) any busy area of the game with enemies is fine. If you see any shifting in the Hz displayed, then VRR is working, if you see the Hz displayed fixed with any change in the number, VRR is not working. Spoiler alert: you will see that shifting. That shifting in the Hz displayed happens because VRR is working due to LFC, doubling the 30 or below fps and giving different numbers near 60.
That's right but it's actually just frame doubling within the 120hz container. That's it. They're working around the 48hz floor using this method. This is the software overcoming a limitation.
PS5 has a hard floor of 48hz currently. Any game dipping below 48 will exhibit judder immediately. I can see this plain as day - it's extremely obvious that under 48hz is not covered by VRR
Good to see you here, John.
That's what I said multiple times in this thread and even showed examples but people keep insisting that LFC is working automatically if games run in the 120hz mode.
They have none. All the games I tried with a 120hz mode start to judder if they drop below 48fps. Like John says, Insomniac has probably implemented a custom LFC mode for their games and only in Fidelity mode.
I'm not sure you can extrapolate that when the video you referenced is talking about how it works with the Xbox One X and not the PS5. I don't own Ghostwire Tokyo, but further up this page there's a video about that same game that runs counter to your argument.
Ghostwire: Tokyo Update – Available NOW
This week, Japan celebrates Golden Week, one of its most popular holiday seasons. We’re also celebrating as the team at Tango Gameworks has launched an all-new update for Ghostwire: Tokyo!
bethesda.net
Hopefully we see a nice trickle of games not on that initial list, especially Sony first party titles.
Actually, my example implies using a 60Hz container to prove that LFC works on unsupported games.
And yeah, that's all what LFC does, but it helps engaging VRR on lower frame rates than supported by the native VRR activation range.
With a 60Hz output, of course, LFC only kicks in at 30fps or below. Between 31 and 47 fps VRR is not working.
At 120Hz, LFC kicks in even on unsupported games, enabling VRR below 48fps. That 48Hz floor is lifted even on unsupported games in this situation.
No it absolutely is not. Not on PS5. As soon as it hits 48 or below, it begins to stutter as usual - what you'd see without VRR. I've even confirmed this with various developers.
That's interesting.
Would you please give me an example of an unsupported game with 120fps mode (since only 120fps modes engage the 120Hz video output) that drops its frame rate below 48fps (with that 120fps mode engaged) so I can take a look?
The best example of Devil May Cry 5 in the RT quality mode with 120hz enabled - it drops below 48 fps a lot in this mode and immediately begins to stutter once it crosses that threshold.
Ghostwire Tokyo in HFR Quality mode dips below 48 fps and stutters badly when doing so - but it just received a patch apparently so I'm not sure what it's currently like. Ratchet can dip below 48 fps in Performance RT mode in very very specific instances if you position the camera just right (usually near your ship at the start of certain planets) and you'll see the VRR readout spike to 119.18 and judder becomes evident after that point.
Thank you for confirming this. So Sony could still implement this system-wide at some point like Xbox does or do you think they will rely on Devs doing it themselves?
Ghostwire Tokyo or Devil May Cry 5.
